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Uncovering the Atkins diet secret



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 24th, 2004, 07:51 PM
tcomeau
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Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret - for Moosh

"Moosh" wrote in message . ..
On 22 Jan 2004 18:02:47 -0800, (tcomeau) posted:


snip


Maybe the lesson to be learned is that calories really have little
bearing when it comes to weight gain or loss in humans.

TC


snip


The only thing
complicating this simple concept is peoples unreasonable adherence to
the calories fallacy. The calories math doesn't, hasn't and will never
be a valid predictor of weight loss or gain in humans.


So show us the study. You've claimed this nonsense for years with not
a shred of evidence. Make with the evidence please. Metabolic lab
study showing hypercaloric diet results in fat storage loss.

Moosh


OK. You claim that the Laws of Thermo is directly applicable to weight
management in the human body, and you further insist that there is no
other factors involved other than the calories-in/calories-out factor.
If that is the case then it applies in *every* circumstance with no
exceptions. No Exceptions. That is the nature of a *Law* of physics.
No Exceptions. In this case we are not restricted to metabolic lab
studies to disprove the applicability of the Law of Thermo to weight
management in the human body. One exception, and only one exceprion,
is enough to disprove the idea that the Law of Thermo applies to
weight management in the human body.

Here is one study that shows that calories are not the last word on
weight mangement in humans.

*********************
http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/na...?storyID=74896

Surprise: Low-carb dieters eat more calories, still lose weight

By DANIEL Q. HANEY

AP Medical Editor

10/14/2003

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- The dietary establishment has long argued
it's impossible, but a new study offers intriguing evidence for the
idea that people on low-carbohydrate diets can actually eat more than
folks on standard lowfat plans and still lose weight.

Perhaps no idea is more controversial in the diet world than the
contention -- long espoused by the late Dr. Robert Atkins -- that
people on low-carbohydrate diets can consume more calories without
paying a price on the scales.

Over the past year, several small studies have shown, to many experts'
surprise, that the Atkins approach actually does work better, at least
in the short run. Dieters lose more than those on a standard American
Heart Association plan without driving up their cholesterol levels, as
many feared would happen.

Skeptics contend, however, that these dieters simply must be eating
less. Maybe the low-carb diets are more satisfying, so they do not get
so hungry. Or perhaps the food choices are just so limited that
low-carb dieters are too bored to eat a lot.

Now, a small but carefully controlled study offers a strong hint that
maybe Atkins was right: People on low-carb, high-fat diets actually
can eat more.

The study, directed by Penelope Greene of the Harvard School of Public
Health and presented at a meeting here this week of the American
Association for the Study of Obesity, found that people eating an
extra 300 calories a day on a very low-carb regimen lost just as much
during a 12-week study as those on a standard lowfat diet.

Over the course of the study, they consumed an extra 25,000 calories.
That should have added up to about seven pounds.

But for some reason, it did not.

"There does indeed seem to be something about a low-carb diet that
says you can eat more calories and lose a similar amount of weight,"
Greene said.

That strikes at one of the most revered beliefs in nutrition: A
calorie is a calorie is a calorie. It does not matter whether they
come from bacon or mashed potatoes; they all go on the waistline in
just the same way.

Not even Greene says this settles the case, but some at the meeting
found her report fascinating.

"A lot of our assumptions about a calorie is a calorie are being
challenged," said Marlene Schwartz of Yale. "As scientists, we need to
be open-minded."

Others, though, found the data hard to swallow.

"It doesn't make sense, does it?" said Barbara Rolls of Pennsylvania
State University. "It violates the laws of thermodynamics. No one has
ever found any miraculous metabolic effects."

In the study, 21 overweight volunteers were divided into three
categories: Two groups were randomly assigned to either lowfat or
low-carb diets with 1,500 calories for women and 1,800 for men; a
third group was also low-carb but got an extra 300 calories a day.

The study was unique because all the food was prepared at an upscale
Italian restaurant in Cambridge, Mass., so researchers knew exactly
what they ate. Most earlier studies simply sent people home with diet
plans to follow as best they could.

Each afternoon, the volunteers picked up that evening's dinner, a
bedtime snack and the next day's breakfast and lunch. Instead of lots
of red meat and saturated fat, which many find disturbing about
low-carb diets, these people ate mostly fish, chicken, salads,
vegetables and unsaturated oils.

"This is not what people think of when they think about an Atkins
diet," Greene said. Nevertheless, the Atkins organization agreed to
pay for the research, though it had no input into the study's design,
conduct or analysis.

Everyone's food looked similar but was cooked to different recipes.
The low-carb meals were 5 percent carbohydrate, 15 percent protein and
65 percent fat. The rest got 55 percent carbohydrate, 15 percent
protein and 30 percent fat.

In the end, everyone lost weight. Those on the lower-cal, low-carb
regimen took off 23 pounds, while people who got the same calories on
the lowfat approach lost 17 pounds. The big surprise, though, was that
volunteers getting the extra 300 calories a day of low-carb food lost
20 pounds.

"It's very intriguing, but it raises more questions than it answers,"
said Gary Foster of the University of Pennsylvania. "There is lots of
data to suggest this shouldn't be true."

Greene said she can only guess why the people getting the extra
calories did so well. Maybe they burned up more calories digesting
their food.

Dr. Samuel Klein of Washington University, the obesity organization's
president, called the results "hard to believe" and said perhaps the
people eating more calories also got more exercise or they were less
apt to cheat because they were less hungry.

------

EDITOR'S NOTE: Medical Editor Daniel Q. Haney is a special
correspondent for The Associated Press.
******************
  #22  
Old January 25th, 2004, 07:03 PM
Mirek Fidler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret - for Moosh

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/na...?storyID=74896

Surprise: Low-carb dieters eat more calories, still lose weight


I guess that that 3lb difference was very likely caused by LC
waterloss...

Mirek


  #23  
Old January 25th, 2004, 07:28 PM
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000620.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.


sigh.... you poor idiot....

Extremes do not prove or disprove anything other than the extreme.



So would you please point out any metabolic lab study that shows that
a hypercaloric diet can result in fat storage loss as you keep
claiming?

Moosh



Great programme on BBC last week. Scientists have been puzzled by the
success of Atkins diet but conclusion is that protein food makes you
feel full but they still maintain it is dangerous. Diana (a non
dieter)
  #24  
Old January 25th, 2004, 08:48 PM
tcomeau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret - for Moosh

(tcomeau) wrote in message

snip


OK. You claim that the Laws of Thermo is directly applicable to weight
management in the human body, and you further insist that there is no
other factors involved other than the calories-in/calories-out factor.
If that is the case then it applies in *every* circumstance with no
exceptions. No Exceptions. That is the nature of a *Law* of physics.
No Exceptions. In this case we are not restricted to metabolic lab
studies to disprove the applicability of the Law of Thermo to weight
management in the human body. One exception, and only one exceprion,
is enough to disprove the idea that the Law of Thermo applies to
weight management in the human body.

Here is one study that shows that calories are not the last word on
weight mangement in humans.

*********************
http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/na...?storyID=74896

Surprise: Low-carb dieters eat more calories, still lose weight

By DANIEL Q. HANEY

AP Medical Editor

10/14/2003

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- The dietary establishment has long argued
it's impossible, but a new study offers intriguing evidence for the
idea that people on low-carbohydrate diets can actually eat more than
folks on standard lowfat plans and still lose weight.

Perhaps no idea is more controversial in the diet world than the
contention -- long espoused by the late Dr. Robert Atkins -- that
people on low-carbohydrate diets can consume more calories without
paying a price on the scales.


snip


The study, directed by Penelope Greene of the Harvard School of Public
Health and presented at a meeting here this week of the American
Association for the Study of Obesity, found that people eating an
extra 300 calories a day on a very low-carb regimen lost just as much
during a 12-week study as those on a standard lowfat diet.

Over the course of the study, they consumed an extra 25,000 calories.
That should have added up to about seven pounds.

But for some reason, it did not.

"There does indeed seem to be something about a low-carb diet that
says you can eat more calories and lose a similar amount of weight,"
Greene said.

That strikes at one of the most revered beliefs in nutrition: A
calorie is a calorie is a calorie. It does not matter whether they
come from bacon or mashed potatoes; they all go on the waistline in
just the same way.

Not even Greene says this settles the case, but some at the meeting
found her report fascinating.

"A lot of our assumptions about a calorie is a calorie are being
challenged," said Marlene Schwartz of Yale. "As scientists, we need to
be open-minded."

Others, though, found the data hard to swallow.

"It doesn't make sense, does it?" said Barbara Rolls of Pennsylvania
State University. "It violates the laws of thermodynamics. No one has
ever found any miraculous metabolic effects."

In the study, 21 overweight volunteers were divided into three
categories: Two groups were randomly assigned to either lowfat or
low-carb diets with 1,500 calories for women and 1,800 for men; a
third group was also low-carb but got an extra 300 calories a day.

The study was unique because all the food was prepared at an upscale
Italian restaurant in Cambridge, Mass., so researchers knew exactly
what they ate. Most earlier studies simply sent people home with diet
plans to follow as best they could.

Each afternoon, the volunteers picked up that evening's dinner, a
bedtime snack and the next day's breakfast and lunch. Instead of lots
of red meat and saturated fat, which many find disturbing about
low-carb diets, these people ate mostly fish, chicken, salads,
vegetables and unsaturated oils.


snip

OK Moosh. There is your study that shows or at least indicates the
real possibility that calories are not a valid and practical approach
to weight management.

I challenge you to find me *one* study that wasn't put out by industry
researchers that proves definitively that calories are directly
applicable to control weight in humans. I want any study that wasn't
paid for by industry that makes it crystal clear that weight can be
managed by restricting calories.

Better yet, find me the seminal study that first made this assertion.
Find me the one or the series of studies that *first* concluded that
calories are it. Such a ground breaking and historical document must
be easy to find. The researchers must be world reknown for their
brilliant discovery. Give me the study(s) and the names. This is the
study(s) that your whole world of nutritional science hangs its hat
on. Should be easy.

TC
  #25  
Old January 25th, 2004, 11:23 PM
tcomeau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret - for Moosh

"Mirek Fidler" wrote in message ...
http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/na...?storyID=74896

Surprise: Low-carb dieters eat more calories, still lose weight


I guess that that 3lb difference was very likely caused by LC
waterloss...

Mirek


You guess? Well that settles it then. You *guess* then it must be
true. What an amazing scientific mind you have.

TC
  #26  
Old January 25th, 2004, 11:36 PM
Mirek Fidler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret - for Moosh

I guess that that 3lb difference was very likely caused by LC
waterloss...

Mirek


You guess? Well that settles it then. You *guess* then it must be
true. What an amazing scientific mind you have.


What is wrong with guessing ?

Do not get me wrong, I am on LC WOE. That is how I know how easily you
loose water during the induction, depleting glycogen stores. Now the
question is whether you will loose the same amount of water on low-fat
regime... I think that there simply will be more water bound with
glycogen when on low-fat/high-carb

A study I would like to see would compare weight loss starting _after_
first two weeks of regime.

Mirek


  #27  
Old January 25th, 2004, 11:46 PM
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

wrote in message ...

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000620.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

sigh.... you poor idiot....

Extremes do not prove or disprove anything other than the extreme.



So would you please point out any metabolic lab study that shows that
a hypercaloric diet can result in fat storage loss as you keep
claiming?

Moosh



Great programme on BBC last week. Scientists have been puzzled by the
success of Atkins diet but conclusion is that protein food makes you
feel full but they still maintain it is dangerous. Diana (a non
dieter)


High protein diets really load up the kidneys and run them into the ground.

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com
  #28  
Old January 25th, 2004, 11:50 PM
Matti Narkia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

25 Jan 2004 14:46:32 -0800 in article
(Dr.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD) wrote:

wrote in message ...

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000620.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

sigh.... you poor idiot....

Extremes do not prove or disprove anything other than the extreme.


So would you please point out any metabolic lab study that shows that
a hypercaloric diet can result in fat storage loss as you keep
claiming?

Moosh



Great programme on BBC last week. Scientists have been puzzled by the
success of Atkins diet but conclusion is that protein food makes you
feel full but they still maintain it is dangerous. Diana (a non
dieter)


High protein diets really load up the kidneys and run them into the ground.

Not true for people with healthy kidneys.


--
Matti Narkia
  #29  
Old January 26th, 2004, 12:33 AM
Stephen S
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Posts: n/a
Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

In response to Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD's post:


High protein diets really load up the kidneys and run them into the
ground.

Humbly,

Andrew


So why isn't there a dialysis center next door to every Gold's Gym?
--
Stephen S.
331 / 286 / 220 - as of 21 Jan. 04
LC since 28 Sept. 03
http://dragonfen.com/diet
--------------------------------


  #30  
Old January 26th, 2004, 02:28 AM
Myway
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Posts: n/a
Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

Stephen S wrote:

In response to Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD's post:


High protein diets really load up the kidneys and run them into the
ground.

Humbly,

Andrew


So why isn't there a dialysis center next door to every Gold's Gym?
--
Stephen S.
331 / 286 / 220 - as of 21 Jan. 04
LC since 28 Sept. 03
http://dragonfen.com/diet
--------------------------------


Oh my! You would argue with the great Dr. (cough) Ching?? Or was that
Chong?
 




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