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On Mar 11, 12:38*pm, Doug Freyburger wrote:
wrote:
Susan wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

Danger of stall yes, danger of illness no.

All weight loss comes with the danger of stalls; that's the role of the
endocrine feedback loop. *In this case, ketosis or very low cal are both
signs of potential famine.

How then do you explain Dr. Atkins use of a fat fast, with 0 carbs, as
a way to break a stall?

That question works best in a more complete context - Depending on the
suspected stall Dr A recommended either repeating Induction or the
reversal diet which was very low fat and high carb but low glycemic
load. Which one to consider depended on what the supected cause was.
Folks love to drop that particular context.

I didn't drop any context. What I stated is right out of his last
book, Dr Atking New Diet Revolution, 2002. There is no mention at
all of a reversal diet. From what I can gleam about the reversal
diet from googling, it appears it was in at least one of his books
from the 90s and had some serious drawbacks. When describing it,
Atkins said it sometimes backfired. That's probably why he no longer
put it in his last book.



One reason for a stall is carb drift combined with total calorie drift.
If you stop counting carb grams and/or you accept every claim about net
carbs and if you combine that with not counting total calories it is
easy to drift out of the ranges that cause loss. *For this Dr A
recommended restarting Induction not the fat fast, though. *He only
recommended the fat fast for folks who don't get into ketosis
(technically ketonuria but he was bad at technical writing) at the 20
level. *
It's folks since Dr A that have suggested the fat fast as a
stall buster; he cautioned against doing that. *He think his status as a
medical professional led him to be more cautious in his medical advice
than amateurs on the network need to be. *The fat fast is extreme but it
is not dangerous as long as his limitations are observed - One week
maximum, effort to increase variety and nutrition within its limits.

But read about the reversal diet in the 1993/1999 edition and it
describes people who stayed on Induction too long and dropped out of
ketosis even at 20. *Noting that the fat fast is really for folks who do
not go in ketosis at 20 the sequence is as simple and as unpopular as
taking in all of the context. Out of ketosis - Retry Induction
expecting that your carb gram count is off. Still out of ketosis - Try
two week pattern of one week of fat fast and one week of Induction
expecting that your CCLL moved down to 15. Still out of ketosis on the
fat fast - Try the reversal diet expectign that you need a leptin reset.

Even before Dr A died there was discussion of the "leptin reset". *It
explains why the reverse diet works in the sequence I listed. *Because
Dr A never mentioned leptin resets I have concluded that he stopped
tracking the science in his final years. *At least he stayed behind the
times on the science of low carb. *There are advantages to staying off
the cutting edge so saying he was conservative about the science in his
final years is just as likely as my conclusion. *There's no why to tell
the two stances apart without access to his private notes and private
data. *His private tabular data was never published and may no longer
exist.

The simple point I raised was this. Susan claimed that at low carb
and/or calorie levels, effects kick in within days that cause the body
to stop losing weight. I used the example of a fat fast, which
Atkins recommended for people that were metabollically resistant and
couldn't lose weight, as a counter example. The point being that if
low carbs/calories caused issues within days, then how could a fat
fast work? I was supporting what you had posted. And I don't see
any of the above being relevant.




Also, if ketosis is some kind of warning
sign for the body of famine, it's rather strange that it results in a
big loss of appetite. *If the body were trying to save itself, one
would think that it would be sending a strong signal to find food. Yet
exactly the opposite happens.

I suggest you read more about folks on complete fasts. *The carb craving
based hunger stops in the first week or two. *That's something that
nearly all of us who have tried ketotic plans have experienced for
ourselves.

Bingo. Exactly my point.



*Then the energy level seems to have some correlation with
fat intake. *There's a lot of disagreement about this point over the
years but different folks do report different energy levels once they
are part Induction and different folks do also report different fat gram
intakes after Induction. *I don't know of any statistically valid
studies of it but it's a trend that I think is worth further study to
move anecdotal evidence to statistical evidence. *Then as the amount of
stored fat gets low the appetite comes back.

If I read these trends correctly there's a trade-off by the body between
increased energy to go out to get food and decreased energy to outlast
the famine, plus hunger when there's no other choice no matter the
energy reserves. My more extreme and less confirmed reading of these
trends says that increased fat intake is correlated with increased
energy during the entire time span. I think that has to do with
hunting versus gathering and seasonal cycles experienced by or stone
age ancestors.

Again, none of that has anything to do with my point.