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OT - Opinions about bleach as a cleanser



 
 
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  #71  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:28 PM
Martin W. Smith
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"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: The paragraph below is where I got that notion:
::: How It Causes Harm:
::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
::: say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is very
::: true, but only in a laboratory test tube under very controlled
::: conditions.
::
:: Chlorine is an element. It doesn't break down into anything else.

Right....which means that the chlorine itself remains to interact with other
things. Of course, small amounts may not do much....but it all ends up who
knows where, with everything else we all pour down the drain. I think this
is the issue, not that there are dioxins in the bleach itself.


Chlorine is a gas at room temperature or anywhere near it. You don't
need to worry about chlorine except in high enough concentrations to
gag you.

If you don't drink bleach and you stay out of your local pool's room
where the chlorine tanks are kept, you will never have a problem.

What caused you to suddenly obsess about chlorine?

  #72  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:31 PM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bob (this one) wrote:
:: FOB wrote:
::
::: Yes, it is safe. It is added to drinking water and swimming pools
::: routinely. You don't want to breath the vapors too much, good
::: thing to do is spray some around and leave the room while it does
::: its stuff, come back and rinse when the fumes have died down. What
::: do dioxins have to do with bleach, it's just chlorine in water?
:::
::: In ,
::: Roger Zoul stated
:::: I would like to know what you all think of using common bleach to
:::: clean your bathroom and kitchen areas. Do you think it is safe to
:::: use around your family? Do you feel it is environmentally safe?
:::: What about those dioxins and stuff? It kills mold and stuff, but
:::: personally, I hate the smell of the stuff.
::
:: Here's some charted info.
:: http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Countertops.html
::
:: A different approach, two-part wash with real cheap stuff...
:: http://my.execpc.com/~mjstouff/articles/vinegar.html
:: http://www.deq.state.mt.us/Recycle/SafeCleanser.asp
::
:: And it even works for foods...
:: http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arch/9_28_96/food.htm
::
:: I use this approach for both wooden and plastic cutting boards.
:: Counter tops. Bathroom surfaces.

This info is exactly what I needed.


  #73  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:31 PM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bob (this one) wrote:
:: FOB wrote:
::
::: Yes, it is safe. It is added to drinking water and swimming pools
::: routinely. You don't want to breath the vapors too much, good
::: thing to do is spray some around and leave the room while it does
::: its stuff, come back and rinse when the fumes have died down. What
::: do dioxins have to do with bleach, it's just chlorine in water?
:::
::: In ,
::: Roger Zoul stated
:::: I would like to know what you all think of using common bleach to
:::: clean your bathroom and kitchen areas. Do you think it is safe to
:::: use around your family? Do you feel it is environmentally safe?
:::: What about those dioxins and stuff? It kills mold and stuff, but
:::: personally, I hate the smell of the stuff.
::
:: Here's some charted info.
:: http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Countertops.html
::
:: A different approach, two-part wash with real cheap stuff...
:: http://my.execpc.com/~mjstouff/articles/vinegar.html
:: http://www.deq.state.mt.us/Recycle/SafeCleanser.asp
::
:: And it even works for foods...
:: http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arch/9_28_96/food.htm
::
:: I use this approach for both wooden and plastic cutting boards.
:: Counter tops. Bathroom surfaces.

This info is exactly what I needed.


  #74  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:45 PM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Carmen wrote:
::::: Hi,
::::: On 7-Sep-2004, "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: How It Causes Harm:
:::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
:::::: say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is
:::::: very true, but
:::::: only in a laboratory test tube under very controlled conditions.
:::::: Chlorine
:::::: itself is not the real issue at hand, but how the byproducts of
:::::: chlorine such
:::::: as organochlrines and dioxins remain in the environment.
:::::
::::: You're smart and well-educated, but not in chemistry. :-) A
::::: "byproduct" is a breakdown product of some mixture. Chlorine is
::::: an element. It is already in its simplest naturally occuring
::::: form. Chlorine cannot break down into hydrogen and oxygen or salt
::::: elements like sodium.
:::
::: I think what they mean is that if chlorine gets into the
::: environment it can act on other materials and the resulting
::: chemical reaction may lead to things like organochlorines and
::: dioxins.
:::
::::: These people probably meant that chlorine can be made *part of*
::::: substances such as the ones they list, but that's not going to
::::: occur just because of the presence of chlorine atoms.
:::
::: Well, the issue is that the bleach has to go somewhere in the
::: environment, which may result in these byproducts. I never said
::: dioxin are in bleach, someone else simply made the comment they
::: aren't, which I don't dispute.
::
:: You know they use chlorine in swimming pools quite a lot. It does
:: cause asthma in children, but I've not heard of any other medical
:: problems.
::
:: It dries out your hair (well, the whole mix of pool chemicals does)
:: and your skin, and it makes you smell like chlorine. It turns your
:: hair green. When the weather is very hot, chloramine gas can form
:: over the surface of the pool, which will make you gag.
::
:: If you are worried about bleach, why not use something else?

Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to use the suggestions given
in the post by Bob.

BTW, I'm not hyper-worried about bleach per se, but I have a house full of
cleaners that sit there for years. Simple & cheap solutions that work, are
less toxic, and environmentally safe seem like a good options to me. Plus,
I don't like the smell and the thought of a lot of chemicals.


  #75  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Martin W. Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Carmen wrote:
::::: Hi,
::::: On 7-Sep-2004, "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: How It Causes Harm:
:::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
:::::: say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is
:::::: very true, but
:::::: only in a laboratory test tube under very controlled conditions.
:::::: Chlorine
:::::: itself is not the real issue at hand, but how the byproducts of
:::::: chlorine such
:::::: as organochlrines and dioxins remain in the environment.
:::::
::::: You're smart and well-educated, but not in chemistry. :-) A
::::: "byproduct" is a breakdown product of some mixture. Chlorine is
::::: an element. It is already in its simplest naturally occuring
::::: form. Chlorine cannot break down into hydrogen and oxygen or salt
::::: elements like sodium.
:::
::: I think what they mean is that if chlorine gets into the
::: environment it can act on other materials and the resulting
::: chemical reaction may lead to things like organochlorines and
::: dioxins.
:::
::::: These people probably meant that chlorine can be made *part of*
::::: substances such as the ones they list, but that's not going to
::::: occur just because of the presence of chlorine atoms.
:::
::: Well, the issue is that the bleach has to go somewhere in the
::: environment, which may result in these byproducts. I never said
::: dioxin are in bleach, someone else simply made the comment they
::: aren't, which I don't dispute.
::
:: You know they use chlorine in swimming pools quite a lot. It does
:: cause asthma in children, but I've not heard of any other medical
:: problems.
::
:: It dries out your hair (well, the whole mix of pool chemicals does)
:: and your skin, and it makes you smell like chlorine. It turns your
:: hair green. When the weather is very hot, chloramine gas can form
:: over the surface of the pool, which will make you gag.
::
:: If you are worried about bleach, why not use something else?

Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to use the suggestions given
in the post by Bob.

BTW, I'm not hyper-worried about bleach per se, but I have a house full of
cleaners that sit there for years. Simple & cheap solutions that work, are
less toxic, and environmentally safe seem like a good options to me. Plus,
I don't like the smell and the thought of a lot of chemicals.


Just a suggestion... you can ignore it, of course... but you are
beginning to sound like you are developing an anxiety problem.

  #76  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Martin W. Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Carmen wrote:
::::: Hi,
::::: On 7-Sep-2004, "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: How It Causes Harm:
:::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
:::::: say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is
:::::: very true, but
:::::: only in a laboratory test tube under very controlled conditions.
:::::: Chlorine
:::::: itself is not the real issue at hand, but how the byproducts of
:::::: chlorine such
:::::: as organochlrines and dioxins remain in the environment.
:::::
::::: You're smart and well-educated, but not in chemistry. :-) A
::::: "byproduct" is a breakdown product of some mixture. Chlorine is
::::: an element. It is already in its simplest naturally occuring
::::: form. Chlorine cannot break down into hydrogen and oxygen or salt
::::: elements like sodium.
:::
::: I think what they mean is that if chlorine gets into the
::: environment it can act on other materials and the resulting
::: chemical reaction may lead to things like organochlorines and
::: dioxins.
:::
::::: These people probably meant that chlorine can be made *part of*
::::: substances such as the ones they list, but that's not going to
::::: occur just because of the presence of chlorine atoms.
:::
::: Well, the issue is that the bleach has to go somewhere in the
::: environment, which may result in these byproducts. I never said
::: dioxin are in bleach, someone else simply made the comment they
::: aren't, which I don't dispute.
::
:: You know they use chlorine in swimming pools quite a lot. It does
:: cause asthma in children, but I've not heard of any other medical
:: problems.
::
:: It dries out your hair (well, the whole mix of pool chemicals does)
:: and your skin, and it makes you smell like chlorine. It turns your
:: hair green. When the weather is very hot, chloramine gas can form
:: over the surface of the pool, which will make you gag.
::
:: If you are worried about bleach, why not use something else?

Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to use the suggestions given
in the post by Bob.

BTW, I'm not hyper-worried about bleach per se, but I have a house full of
cleaners that sit there for years. Simple & cheap solutions that work, are
less toxic, and environmentally safe seem like a good options to me. Plus,
I don't like the smell and the thought of a lot of chemicals.


Just a suggestion... you can ignore it, of course... but you are
beginning to sound like you are developing an anxiety problem.

  #77  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:51 PM
Carmen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi,
::: How It Causes Harm:
::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
say
::: that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is very
true,
::: but
::: only in a laboratory test tube under very controlled conditions.
::: Chlorine
::: itself is not the real issue at hand, but how the byproducts of
::: chlorine such
::: as organochlrines and dioxins remain in the environment.
::
:: You're smart and well-educated, but not in chemistry. :-) A
:: "byproduct" is a breakdown product of some mixture. Chlorine is
an element. It is already in its simplest naturally occuring form.
:: Chlorine cannot break down into hydrogen and oxygen or salt
elements like sodium.

I think what they mean is that if chlorine gets into the environment
it can act on other materials and the resulting chemical reaction
may lead
to things like organochlorines and dioxins.


Besides the chlorine that is naturally present in the environment,
it's in most of the things in your household - including the water
itself. Look at the labels in your house. Chlorine is also used in
the vast majority of places in the US to disinfect the water and make
it safe to drink.

:: These people probably meant that chlorine can be made *part of*
:: substances such as the ones they list, but that's not going to
occur just because of the presence of chlorine atoms.

Well, the issue is that the bleach has to go somewhere in the
environment, which may result in these byproducts. I never said
dioxin are in
bleach, someone else simply made the comment they aren't, which I
don't
dispute.


If dioxins worry you that much there are some things you can do to
limit your exposure to them. Since they're fat soluble don't eat the
fatty animal based foods like butter and eggs or the fat or skin of
meats and poultry. Don't eat salmon. Don't drive a car or light your
fireplace (no woodburning of any type). To limit the amount of
chlorine you release into the environment you can do the following: No
Splenda. They use chlorine atoms in Splenda. No salt. Throw out
most of your vitamins. Don't use bleached paper products like coffee
filters, toilet paper or notebook and copier and printer papers. No
PVC stuff. There's more, and if you search you'll get lots of good
ideas.

Take care,
Carmen
PS If you get cancer or some communicable disease leave it untreated.
The hospital waste gets burned and that'll lead to dioxin release.
And yes, I am being a smartass. Come on Roger. You're more capable
of independent thought than that. The source you provided is clearly
written by people with little knowledge of the subject. A cursory
glance ought to have set off alarm bells. Is there some lady with
Greenpeace leanings you're interested in or something?
  #78  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:51 PM
Carmen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi,
::: How It Causes Harm:
::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
say
::: that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is very
true,
::: but
::: only in a laboratory test tube under very controlled conditions.
::: Chlorine
::: itself is not the real issue at hand, but how the byproducts of
::: chlorine such
::: as organochlrines and dioxins remain in the environment.
::
:: You're smart and well-educated, but not in chemistry. :-) A
:: "byproduct" is a breakdown product of some mixture. Chlorine is
an element. It is already in its simplest naturally occuring form.
:: Chlorine cannot break down into hydrogen and oxygen or salt
elements like sodium.

I think what they mean is that if chlorine gets into the environment
it can act on other materials and the resulting chemical reaction
may lead
to things like organochlorines and dioxins.


Besides the chlorine that is naturally present in the environment,
it's in most of the things in your household - including the water
itself. Look at the labels in your house. Chlorine is also used in
the vast majority of places in the US to disinfect the water and make
it safe to drink.

:: These people probably meant that chlorine can be made *part of*
:: substances such as the ones they list, but that's not going to
occur just because of the presence of chlorine atoms.

Well, the issue is that the bleach has to go somewhere in the
environment, which may result in these byproducts. I never said
dioxin are in
bleach, someone else simply made the comment they aren't, which I
don't
dispute.


If dioxins worry you that much there are some things you can do to
limit your exposure to them. Since they're fat soluble don't eat the
fatty animal based foods like butter and eggs or the fat or skin of
meats and poultry. Don't eat salmon. Don't drive a car or light your
fireplace (no woodburning of any type). To limit the amount of
chlorine you release into the environment you can do the following: No
Splenda. They use chlorine atoms in Splenda. No salt. Throw out
most of your vitamins. Don't use bleached paper products like coffee
filters, toilet paper or notebook and copier and printer papers. No
PVC stuff. There's more, and if you search you'll get lots of good
ideas.

Take care,
Carmen
PS If you get cancer or some communicable disease leave it untreated.
The hospital waste gets burned and that'll lead to dioxin release.
And yes, I am being a smartass. Come on Roger. You're more capable
of independent thought than that. The source you provided is clearly
written by people with little knowledge of the subject. A cursory
glance ought to have set off alarm bells. Is there some lady with
Greenpeace leanings you're interested in or something?
  #79  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:52 PM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: The paragraph below is where I got that notion:
:::::: How It Causes Harm:
:::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
:::::: say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is
:::::: very true, but only in a laboratory test tube under very
:::::: controlled conditions.
:::::
::::: Chlorine is an element. It doesn't break down into anything else.
:::
::: Right....which means that the chlorine itself remains to interact
::: with other things. Of course, small amounts may not do
::: much....but it all ends up who knows where, with everything else we
::: all pour down the drain. I think this is the issue, not that there
::: are dioxins in the bleach itself.
::
:: Chlorine is a gas at room temperature or anywhere near it. You don't
:: need to worry about chlorine except in high enough concentrations to
:: gag you.

So there is no need to worry about it getting into the environment? I know
some disgree with the "green" concepts.

::
:: If you don't drink bleach and you stay out of your local pool's room
:: where the chlorine tanks are kept, you will never have a problem.
::

I don't really expect to have a problem with bleach. I never have.

:: What caused you to suddenly obsess about chlorine?

Believe it or not, it just looks like that from your (and maybe others) POV.
I make a post, get some responses, reply to them since people went to the
effort to respond, and it appears as though I'm obsessing. I'm not.
However, I can see some good reasons to use the alternative of vinegar and
hydrogen peroxide in spray bottles as disinfectants. To me, this relates to
"cleaning up" my environment in a manner similar to cleaning up my diet.
That's all, really. Oh, I don't like the smell of bleach


  #80  
Old September 8th, 2004, 01:52 PM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: The paragraph below is where I got that notion:
:::::: How It Causes Harm:
:::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
:::::: say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is
:::::: very true, but only in a laboratory test tube under very
:::::: controlled conditions.
:::::
::::: Chlorine is an element. It doesn't break down into anything else.
:::
::: Right....which means that the chlorine itself remains to interact
::: with other things. Of course, small amounts may not do
::: much....but it all ends up who knows where, with everything else we
::: all pour down the drain. I think this is the issue, not that there
::: are dioxins in the bleach itself.
::
:: Chlorine is a gas at room temperature or anywhere near it. You don't
:: need to worry about chlorine except in high enough concentrations to
:: gag you.

So there is no need to worry about it getting into the environment? I know
some disgree with the "green" concepts.

::
:: If you don't drink bleach and you stay out of your local pool's room
:: where the chlorine tanks are kept, you will never have a problem.
::

I don't really expect to have a problem with bleach. I never have.

:: What caused you to suddenly obsess about chlorine?

Believe it or not, it just looks like that from your (and maybe others) POV.
I make a post, get some responses, reply to them since people went to the
effort to respond, and it appears as though I'm obsessing. I'm not.
However, I can see some good reasons to use the alternative of vinegar and
hydrogen peroxide in spray bottles as disinfectants. To me, this relates to
"cleaning up" my environment in a manner similar to cleaning up my diet.
That's all, really. Oh, I don't like the smell of bleach


 




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