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#21
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Good bye and good riddance to diets
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Written that way it shows you've never had a craving. It also suggests why your comments about low carbing are so insanely alternating between clueless and matter-of-fact book-citing. It's hard to discuss this stuff with you when you take such a superior, self righteous tone. I may not be a medical doctor, but Penn's PhD ethnomusicology program thinks I have a working brain. I've also low-carbed for months and even years at a time. I know what I'm talking about. There is no relationship between craving a food and wanting a food. Of course there is. Both manifest themselves as desires; one is physical, while the other is psychological. But, they feel equally real. One is a physical urge that can only be resolved by physical means that does not go away with distractions and that is not specific until a food that addresses it is tasted. That is patently false. Almost all low-carb plans are built on the premise that enough protein consumption, coupled with reduced or eliminated carb intake, will eliminate physical cravings. Put more simply, the more protein and fat you eat, the less you'll crave carbs. The other is a mental desire that can be distracted and that can be anywhere from broad to specific. Whether cravings are physical or psychological, the decision to satisfy or substitute them is a tangible choice. Folks who've never tried to resolve a craving to make it go away might never learn the difference and they tend to conclude they are overeaters for some other reason. I entirely agree. I don't get anymore cravings for carbs; my desires to partake of them are purely psychological and cultural. Folks who've never had a craving are unlikely to learn the difference. Part of the problem, as I've been saying all along, relates to how people conceive of normal eating. In American culture, it's normal to eat carbs at every meal and to snack on them throughout the day. It's considered normal to try and satiate persistent hunger with carbs. Our entire public culinary culture is based on that principle. Consider what caterers typically provide for business meetings and functions, what most restaurants provide before meals and what most vending machines stock. Of course, the hyperinsulin person eventually figures out or is hopefully informed that eating carbs to quell persistent hunger is like chasing a shadowy dragon; the carbs never actually do the trick, perpetuating a vicious cycle in which the body only feels satisfied for a short period and wants more carbs. Most people don't realize this. Most people's friends and families don't realize this. When people overeat, it's primarily because they're looking to food to satisfy a deep-seeded hunger. That hunger may have nothing to do with food, as when it's truly a hunger for emotional security or validation through food. However, as you say, that hunger is often entirely physiological. Most people simply don't comprehend the principle that most persistent physical hunger can only be satisfied with protein and fat because it takes the body a longer time to metabolize them. I'm wheat intolerant in a way that triggers cravings. If I have no wheat (exact threshold determined by level of avoidance in recent years but always a lot smaller than one bite of bread) for more than a week then the cravings are a temptation that is always lurking in the background to ambush me but never active. If I take the first bite then I crave it like the addict that I am and it takes much effort to turn the craving back off again. I honestly cannot think of any similar relationship I have to an entire food group. Hispanic that I am, I've gone weeks and months without white rice, most times either not eating it at all or substituting brown rice. I don't crave wheat in any form. If I don't eat bread or pasta for months, I don't feel deprived as long as no one around me is eating these foods. If I'd never gone on Atkins I would never have learned how to turn it off. If I'd never gone on South Beach or Atkins before it, I too would have never learned that I could live without feeling hungry all the time and eating too much in order to satisfy that hunger. But none of that is the same as wanting wheat. I don't want to eat poison. And none of it is the same as missing wheat. When I finally learned what wheat was doing to me my attitude towards it changed completely and forever. But my body is always ready to reactivate those cravings so the temptation is always there. And the social pressure to eat poison is endless. See, here's where we disagree. I don't look upon home made, relatively unrefined carbs as poison. Poison is something that harms anyone who goes near it. If millions or even billions of people can maintain normal weight eating carbs, they must not be poison to those people and probably not even poisonous to me. You're right that there's always social pressure to eat carbs, but it's not a sinister plot to poison the carb-intolerant; it's simply how our culture is set up. People consider it entirely normal to eat carbs in a way that they would not consider alcohol or tobacco. Just think about how people continue eating carbs long after they've given up drinking and smoking. Think about how nearly every food plan except LC, from veganism to macrobiotics, is based around carbs. The tendency to eat carbs, as I've said before, arises in agrarian societies that use grains, legumes, fruits and vegetables as staples. Surely, people couldn't have been poisoning themselves for millennia eating that way. That brings us to the question: How has normal carbohydrate consumption become toxic, poisonous and addictive for so many people? Part of the answer is of course that different people have different genetic and metabolic predispositions. But, part of the problem is indeed cultural. The mainstream American diet is full of meat and carbohydrates; just ask an LC vegetarian what they endure every day. Until our culture shifts away from the model of hunger satiety with carbs, we will always feel incredible pressure to eat carbs, especially in social settings. Writing off all those settings as poisonous may help you stay on plan, but that model doesn't work for me. I want to eat carbs with every meal, but my body can't handle it. I'd rather eat real desserts than sugar free ones. I often would rather eat rice than salad. I'd often rather drink fruit juice than plain water, diet soda or Crystal Light. But, I choose LC alternatives because my metabolism and hyperinsulinism have left me no choice. Orlando |
#22
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Good bye and good riddance to diets
"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote in message
. .. Cheri wrote: OK, I do eat normally everyday. YMMV Please don't get me wrong; I know that my body needs me to eat LC in order to lose weight and stay healthy. I'm just saying that in order to accomplish these things, I have to ignore many of my cultural associations with food and eat somewhat abnormally. Sometimes, that feeling of eating too differently from how I wish I could is overwhelming. At those times, I sometimes choose to eat whatever I want at the expense of my weight loss. We should try and feel compassion for people who have trouble simply changing their diet because it makes sense for their bodies. People eat different foods for a host of reasons. While there are some food addicts out here who should never be let loose with any carbs, some of us wish we could at least sometimes eat normally. Orlando I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle. Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what you're saying. Cheri |
#23
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Good bye and good riddance to diets
Cheri wrote:
I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle. Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what you're saying. Thanks for understanding. Most times, I don't eat that stuff either and don't feel deprived if I'm alone. But, get me around people who are eating what I wish I could and I start feeling miserable. Orlando |
#24
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Good bye and good riddance to diets
In article ,
Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote: Cheri wrote: I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle. Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what you're saying. Thanks for understanding. Most times, I don't eat that stuff either and don't feel deprived if I'm alone. But, get me around people who are eating what I wish I could and I start feeling miserable. Orlando I can see the light. Lucky me. If you come over to me, you can see the light too. Aren't I great? -- "When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist." -Archbishop Helder Camara http://tinyurl.com/o63ruj http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm |
#25
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Good bye and good riddance to diets
"Cheri" wrote:
I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle. One of the reasons I am a fan of Atkins more than other popular low carb plans is it is fully cutomized. Early on it starts out very cautious and stresses that one bite does hurt because early on folks still getting over their early cravings do get set back by a single bite. Then as you move through the 4 phases it gets more generous and what you eat is based on how your own body reacts to each food added back. If you add back some very carby food and your body reacts poorly to that level of carbs you pull back a bit and settle in using that level. If you add back some very carby food and your body reacts well to that level of carbs you keep adding until you find your own personal limit. Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what you're saying. It's very easy to refuse to try carby foods because you're too cautious. It's very easy to keep adding carby foods because you've put yourself back into the vicious cycle and end up off the plan. The fact that there's a process to learn how to tune your own food doesn't mean it's easy to actually figure it out. If anyone ever finds a system that's hard to fall off of they will be a billionaire. Right now the best we have is types of plan that specific people find easy to stay on. The best of the best are the ones that customize to each individual. |
#26
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Good bye and good riddance to diets
Susan wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote: One of the reasons I am a fan of Atkins more than other popular low carb plans is it is fully cutomized. As are the other plans, except for the Zone, which isn't actually low carb. Your anti-Atkins bias is coming out again. So on Protein Power you can end up eating several times as many carb grams as someone else because of how your body reacts? Nope. PP has carb levels determined by what works for most not based on what works for each individual. So on Carbohydrate Addicts Diet you can end up eating several times as many carb grams as someone else because of how your body reacts? Nope. CAD has menu classes that are used based on individual results but the classes aren't that different. So on Weight Watchers you can end up eating twice as many exchanges as someone else because of your results compared to theirs? Nice to have such a fully customized place available! I need to read South Beach far more carefully to find out how it's fully customized as in two different people can follow the same directions and end up eating dramatically different foods based on their own body's reactions. Following the Atkins directions to find CCLL and CCLM definitely has people eating dramatically different carb levels. CCLLs may cluster near the 50 grams net used for everyone by PP but I've encountered folks who have to stay under 15 and folks who can eat over 100 grams while in phase 2. It's part of why the question "What is low carb" keeps coming up - It means different gram counts for different people. |
#27
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Good bye and good riddance to diets
Doug Freyburger wrote:
I need to read South Beach far more carefully to find out how it's fully customized as in two different people can follow the same directions and end up eating dramatically different foods based on their own body's reactions. It's very possible; Agatston's recipes bear this out. Following the Atkins directions to find CCLL and CCLM definitely has people eating dramatically different carb levels. CCLLs may cluster near the 50 grams net used for everyone by PP but I've encountered folks who have to stay under 15 and folks who can eat over 100 grams while in phase 2. It's part of why the question "What is low carb" keeps coming up - It means different gram counts for different people. During the first month on South Beach, I attended a few school-related functions where I experimented with various kinds of carbs and found that none of them stalled my weight loss. For me, it's more a question of frequency than carb type. I can eat about anything infrequently. Orlando |
#28
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Good bye and good riddance to diets
Susan wrote:
So on Weight Watchers you can end up eating twice as many exchanges as someone else because of your results compared to theirs? Nice to have such a fully customized place available! No exchanges on WW these days. In fact, not in all the years I've followed it. You must be remembering a very old program. WW is low carb? It can be if you want it to be. I work best on a low wheat but otherwise well ballanced mix of carbs and fresh veg with small portions of meat and cheese and medium portions of fish. Low carb isn't really a sensible option for us with a growing lad and a type 1 diabetic, and an inability on my part to wish to cook 3 different meals each evening. -- Kate XXXXXX R.C.T.Q Madame Chef des Trolls Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons http://www.katedicey.co.uk Click on Kate's Pages and explore! |
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