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Why MUST I drink lots of water on low carb?



 
 
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  #41  
Old September 1st, 2004, 07:08 AM
Martin W. Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
:::::::: "John E" wrote:
::::::::
::::::::: Hi folks,
:::::::::
::::::::: I heard on TV that you must remain VERY hydrated, i.e. drink
::::::::: lots and lots of water when you are in Ketosis. They guy
::::::::: gave no reason.
:::::::::
::::::::: Can somoene please explain the detailed reason behind it?
:::::::::
::::::::: Does being-hydrated help you lose weight faster?
::::::::: Does it give you energy so you won't give up?
::::::::: Or is it a necessity so you won't develop kidney problems
::::::::: because that organ HATES ketone concentration.
:::::::::
::::::::: Your help is appreciated,
::::::::
:::::::: One reason is related to the exercise component. The body
:::::::: normally stores glycogen in and around the muscles. Glycogen
:::::::: is one part carb and four parts water. It is fuel that can be
:::::::: burned quickly, when the muscles are called on to work hard.
:::::::: If you are doing the exercise component of Atkins properly, ie
:::::::: lots of exercise daily, then especially during the weight loss
:::::::: phases, your body will normally be depleted of glycogen and so
:::::::: will have much less stored water. Drinking all this extra
:::::::: water helps keep the level up to where it would normally be if
:::::::: you were eating more carbs. It is especially important if you
:::::::: are training hard.
::::::
:::::: So if there is little glycogen, how can the muscle be holding
:::::: water?
:::::
::::: It isn't holding nearly as much. That's the point. You have to
::::: keep drinking.
:::::
:::::: You
:::::: can guzzle all the water you want, but the water will just flow
:::::: through and it won't stored in the muscles with glycogen if
:::::: you're exercising and restricting carbs.
:::::
::::: The drinking isn't for storing the water. The drinking is for
::::: ensuring water is there for the processes that need it, because
::::: they can't get enough of it by burning glycogen, when there isn't
::::: much glycogen to be burned.
:::
::: But a LCer can drink all the water in the world, but since the
::: carbs are low there will be little glycogen for water to bind to,
::: hence it won't be stored in and around muscle tissue and in the
::: liver. That water weight can only be replaced by upping the carbs
::: or eating enough protein to get glycogen stores refilled as a
::: result of conversion. Water can be other places in the body....
::
:: That's right, but that's why drinking water is so important for an
:: athlete on a low-carb diet. I'm not talking about replacing water
:: weight. I'm talking about ensuring that sufficient water is available
:: when it is needed.

Sure....everyone needs sufficient water and low-carbers are no different.


Low-carbers *are* different in that they don't have a large store of
glycogen to call on during training and competing.

::::: When you try your first century without drinking water, you will
::::: see what I mean. You probably won't reach the finish line.
:::
::: You don't think I'd try a century without drinking water, do you?
::: I won't even do 20 miles without water.
::
:: Good, but on a full glycogen load, I can go hard for two hours
:: without drinking water, with no ill effects or drop in performance.
:: That's much further than 20 miles. When I am low-carbing, I can't go
:: anywhere near that long without drinking.

Well, one thing about low-carbing is the loss of electrolytes like sodium,
potassium, and magnesium due to ketosis. So, when you're glycogen loaded
you won't have a deficiency in these and your muscles have glycogen, so you
can tap type 2 fibers more to enable you to go hard.


You can be low on electrolytes whether you have a large glycogen store
or not.

On low carb, you're
deplete of all of these (electrolytes and gylcogen), so going hard will be,
er, hard. You can get muscle cramps and not have much of an attitude for
going hard. I think this occurs regards of how much water one drinks,
provided one has enough. I don't see what extra water will do if you're low
on electrolytes and gylcogen and that impairing exercise ability.


Among other things, you need water to carry away waste and to cool the
body.

Your argument is that a LCer needs more water because water is lost in and
around muscles due to depleted glycogen stores. But just drinking more
water while LCing doesn't replenish that water - no matter how much you
drink. The water will just pass through.


That isn't my argument. The part about not having a large glycogen
store is part of my argument. The water you drink does not "just pass
through." Do you really think there is a passage way connecting your
mouth to you penis? That didn't sound right, but you get my drift. The
water you drink must be aborbed into you body to come out in urine and
sweat. If it just passed through, it would all come out your ass.

The bottom line: I think one's water needs will be the same whether LCing or
not.


But they're not.

Lyle's suggestion of 4 to 5 clear pees per day seems like the best
advice on water consumption. Electrolyte supplementation may be necessary,
however, for the LCing athlete.

As far as dieting goes, almost every diet book in existence recommends
drinking ****loads of water. It has been shown repeatedly that this
recommendation is baseless in fact. But if you have some citations
somewhere that says that LCers NEED more water because of restricted carbs,
please pass that on.


We have discussed the reasons here, and you haven't refuted any of
them. I don't know if you compete at all, let alone compete while on a
LC diet.

Just for the heck of it, though, i'm going to gorge on water before my
Thursday AM ride, which I will do while LCing (I've done this before, BTW).
I'm sure I'll be uncomfortable with a belly full of water while riding up
the first hill.


You shouldn't gorge on water at all, and certainly not before hard
training. You should be hydrated, and you should drink during the
ride.

  #42  
Old September 1st, 2004, 11:01 AM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Martin W. Smith wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||| Martin W. Smith wrote:
||||| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
|||||
|||||| Martin W. Smith wrote:
|||||||| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||||||||
||||||||| Martin W. Smith wrote:
||||||||||| "John E" wrote:
|||||||||||
|||||||||||| Hi folks,
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| I heard on TV that you must remain VERY hydrated, i.e.
|||||||||||| drink
|||||||||||| lots and lots of water when you are in Ketosis. They guy
|||||||||||| gave no reason.
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| Can somoene please explain the detailed reason behind it?
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| Does being-hydrated help you lose weight faster?
|||||||||||| Does it give you energy so you won't give up?
|||||||||||| Or is it a necessity so you won't develop kidney problems
|||||||||||| because that organ HATES ketone concentration.
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| Your help is appreciated,
|||||||||||
||||||||||| One reason is related to the exercise component. The body
||||||||||| normally stores glycogen in and around the muscles. Glycogen
||||||||||| is one part carb and four parts water. It is fuel that can
||||||||||| be burned quickly, when the muscles are called on to work
||||||||||| hard.
||||||||||| If you are doing the exercise component of Atkins properly,
||||||||||| ie lots of exercise daily, then especially during the
||||||||||| weight loss phases, your body will normally be depleted of
||||||||||| glycogen and so will have much less stored water. Drinking
||||||||||| all this extra
||||||||||| water helps keep the level up to where it would normally be
||||||||||| if
||||||||||| you were eating more carbs. It is especially important if
||||||||||| you
||||||||||| are training hard.
|||||||||
||||||||| So if there is little glycogen, how can the muscle be holding
||||||||| water?
||||||||
|||||||| It isn't holding nearly as much. That's the point. You have to
|||||||| keep drinking.
||||||||
||||||||| You
||||||||| can guzzle all the water you want, but the water will just
||||||||| flow through and it won't stored in the muscles with glycogen
||||||||| if
||||||||| you're exercising and restricting carbs.
||||||||
|||||||| The drinking isn't for storing the water. The drinking is for
|||||||| ensuring water is there for the processes that need it, because
|||||||| they can't get enough of it by burning glycogen, when there
|||||||| isn't much glycogen to be burned.
||||||
|||||| But a LCer can drink all the water in the world, but since the
|||||| carbs are low there will be little glycogen for water to bind to,
|||||| hence it won't be stored in and around muscle tissue and in the
|||||| liver. That water weight can only be replaced by upping the
|||||| carbs
|||||| or eating enough protein to get glycogen stores refilled as a
|||||| result of conversion. Water can be other places in the body....
|||||
||||| That's right, but that's why drinking water is so important for an
||||| athlete on a low-carb diet. I'm not talking about replacing water
||||| weight. I'm talking about ensuring that sufficient water is
||||| available when it is needed.
|||
||| Sure....everyone needs sufficient water and low-carbers are no
||| different.
||
|| Low-carbers *are* different in that they don't have a large store of
|| glycogen to call on during training and competing.

True, but as far as water requirements go...

||
|||||||| When you try your first century without drinking water, you
|||||||| will
|||||||| see what I mean. You probably won't reach the finish line.
||||||
|||||| You don't think I'd try a century without drinking water, do you?
|||||| I won't even do 20 miles without water.
|||||
||||| Good, but on a full glycogen load, I can go hard for two hours
||||| without drinking water, with no ill effects or drop in
||||| performance. That's much further than 20 miles. When I am
||||| low-carbing, I can't go anywhere near that long without drinking.
|||
||| Well, one thing about low-carbing is the loss of electrolytes like
||| sodium, potassium, and magnesium due to ketosis. So, when you're
||| glycogen loaded you won't have a deficiency in these and your
||| muscles have glycogen, so you can tap type 2 fibers more to enable
||| you to go hard.
||
|| You can be low on electrolytes whether you have a large glycogen
|| store
|| or not.

True, but ketosis does have the effect of driving electrolytes from the
body...so a LCer is more likely to be low on those...and that may impact
exercise performance.

||
||| On low carb, you're
||| deplete of all of these (electrolytes and gylcogen), so going hard
||| will be, er, hard. You can get muscle cramps and not have much of
||| an attitude for going hard. I think this occurs regards of how
||| much water one drinks, provided one has enough. I don't see what
||| extra water will do if you're low on electrolytes and gylcogen and
||| that impairing exercise ability.
||
|| Among other things, you need water to carry away waste and to cool
|| the
|| body.

Sure. However, I'm talking about the extra water.

||
||| Your argument is that a LCer needs more water because water is lost
||| in and around muscles due to depleted glycogen stores. But just
||| drinking more water while LCing doesn't replenish that water - no
||| matter how much you drink. The water will just pass through.
||
|| That isn't my argument. The part about not having a large glycogen
|| store is part of my argument.

What is how you began your first comment tothe OP, as I recall. You wrote:

"One reason is related to the exercise component. The body normally
stores glycogen in and around the muscles. Glycogen is one part carb
and four parts water. It is fuel that can be burned quickly, when the
muscles are called on to work hard. If you are doing the exercise
component of Atkins properly, ie lots of exercise daily, then
especially during the weight loss phases, your body will normally be
depleted of glycogen and so will have much less stored water."

BTW - my perception of the exercise component of Atkins would allow must
people to exercise just fine - as I did long before I started riding my
bicycle. I don't think Atkins was recommending his LC diet for the athlete
but for typical normal people who were very likely sedentary, and certainly
not for those who ride a bicycle for 5+ hours.

|| The water you drink does not "just pass
|| through." Do you really think there is a passage way connecting your
|| mouth to you penis?



|| That didn't sound right, but you get my drift.

Yes, I get your point.

|| The
|| water you drink must be aborbed into you body to come out in urine
|| and sweat. If it just passed through, it would all come out your ass.

I agree. But that water won't be in and around the muscles - the place
where it would be if you were not LCing. That water can't be replaced
without carbs.

||
||| The bottom line: I think one's water needs will be the same whether
||| LCing or not.
||
|| But they're not.
||

Then where is the proof? Can you provide a cite of some type? I am open to
changing my mind on this, BTW.

||| Lyle's suggestion of 4 to 5 clear pees per day seems like the best
||| advice on water consumption. Electrolyte supplementation may be
||| necessary, however, for the LCing athlete.
|||
||| As far as dieting goes, almost every diet book in existence
||| recommends drinking ****loads of water. It has been shown
||| repeatedly that this recommendation is baseless in fact. But if
||| you have some citations somewhere that says that LCers NEED more
||| water because of restricted carbs, please pass that on.
||
|| We have discussed the reasons here, and you haven't refuted any of
|| them. I don't know if you compete at all, let alone compete while on
|| a
|| LC diet.

I do compete against myself. How can someone refute statements that aren't
concrete?

||
||| Just for the heck of it, though, i'm going to gorge on water before
||| my Thursday AM ride, which I will do while LCing (I've done this
||| before, BTW). I'm sure I'll be uncomfortable with a belly full of
||| water while riding up the first hill.
||
|| You shouldn't gorge on water at all, and certainly not before hard
|| training. You should be hydrated, and you should drink during the
|| ride.

Okay, so how does one know for sure if one is hydrated? I drink when I'm
thirsty. I don't see the need to "drink lots of water on low carb",
especially if I'm not doing a long bike ride.


  #43  
Old September 1st, 2004, 11:19 AM
Martin W. Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Martin W. Smith wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||| Martin W. Smith wrote:
||||| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
|||||
|||||| Martin W. Smith wrote:
|||||||| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||||||||
||||||||| Martin W. Smith wrote:
||||||||||| "John E" wrote:
|||||||||||
|||||||||||| Hi folks,
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| I heard on TV that you must remain VERY hydrated, i.e.
|||||||||||| drink
|||||||||||| lots and lots of water when you are in Ketosis. They guy
|||||||||||| gave no reason.
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| Can somoene please explain the detailed reason behind it?
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| Does being-hydrated help you lose weight faster?
|||||||||||| Does it give you energy so you won't give up?
|||||||||||| Or is it a necessity so you won't develop kidney problems
|||||||||||| because that organ HATES ketone concentration.
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| Your help is appreciated,
|||||||||||
||||||||||| One reason is related to the exercise component. The body
||||||||||| normally stores glycogen in and around the muscles. Glycogen
||||||||||| is one part carb and four parts water. It is fuel that can
||||||||||| be burned quickly, when the muscles are called on to work
||||||||||| hard.
||||||||||| If you are doing the exercise component of Atkins properly,
||||||||||| ie lots of exercise daily, then especially during the
||||||||||| weight loss phases, your body will normally be depleted of
||||||||||| glycogen and so will have much less stored water. Drinking
||||||||||| all this extra
||||||||||| water helps keep the level up to where it would normally be
||||||||||| if
||||||||||| you were eating more carbs. It is especially important if
||||||||||| you
||||||||||| are training hard.
|||||||||
||||||||| So if there is little glycogen, how can the muscle be holding
||||||||| water?
||||||||
|||||||| It isn't holding nearly as much. That's the point. You have to
|||||||| keep drinking.
||||||||
||||||||| You
||||||||| can guzzle all the water you want, but the water will just
||||||||| flow through and it won't stored in the muscles with glycogen
||||||||| if
||||||||| you're exercising and restricting carbs.
||||||||
|||||||| The drinking isn't for storing the water. The drinking is for
|||||||| ensuring water is there for the processes that need it, because
|||||||| they can't get enough of it by burning glycogen, when there
|||||||| isn't much glycogen to be burned.
||||||
|||||| But a LCer can drink all the water in the world, but since the
|||||| carbs are low there will be little glycogen for water to bind to,
|||||| hence it won't be stored in and around muscle tissue and in the
|||||| liver. That water weight can only be replaced by upping the
|||||| carbs
|||||| or eating enough protein to get glycogen stores refilled as a
|||||| result of conversion. Water can be other places in the body....
|||||
||||| That's right, but that's why drinking water is so important for an
||||| athlete on a low-carb diet. I'm not talking about replacing water
||||| weight. I'm talking about ensuring that sufficient water is
||||| available when it is needed.
|||
||| Sure....everyone needs sufficient water and low-carbers are no
||| different.
||
|| Low-carbers *are* different in that they don't have a large store of
|| glycogen to call on during training and competing.

True, but as far as water requirements go...


....if you are a low-carber in a depleted glycogen state when you begin
your race, ride, or other workout, you will have to drink water a lot
sooner to avoid dehydration-caused performance degradation than you
would if your glycogen store was not depleted.

|||||||| When you try your first century without drinking water, you
|||||||| will
|||||||| see what I mean. You probably won't reach the finish line.
||||||
|||||| You don't think I'd try a century without drinking water, do you?
|||||| I won't even do 20 miles without water.
|||||
||||| Good, but on a full glycogen load, I can go hard for two hours
||||| without drinking water, with no ill effects or drop in
||||| performance. That's much further than 20 miles. When I am
||||| low-carbing, I can't go anywhere near that long without drinking.
|||
||| Well, one thing about low-carbing is the loss of electrolytes like
||| sodium, potassium, and magnesium due to ketosis. So, when you're
||| glycogen loaded you won't have a deficiency in these and your
||| muscles have glycogen, so you can tap type 2 fibers more to enable
||| you to go hard.
||
|| You can be low on electrolytes whether you have a large glycogen
|| store
|| or not.

True, but ketosis does have the effect of driving electrolytes from the
body...so a LCer is more likely to be low on those...and that may impact
exercise performance.


It certainly will, and drinking water won't replace them.

||| On low carb, you're
||| deplete of all of these (electrolytes and gylcogen), so going hard
||| will be, er, hard. You can get muscle cramps and not have much of
||| an attitude for going hard. I think this occurs regards of how
||| much water one drinks, provided one has enough. I don't see what
||| extra water will do if you're low on electrolytes and gylcogen and
||| that impairing exercise ability.
||
|| Among other things, you need water to carry away waste and to cool
|| the
|| body.

Sure. However, I'm talking about the extra water.


There is no extra water. The water recommended by Atkins isn't extra,
if you are also doing the exercise component of Atkins.

||| Your argument is that a LCer needs more water because water is lost
||| in and around muscles due to depleted glycogen stores. But just
||| drinking more water while LCing doesn't replenish that water - no
||| matter how much you drink. The water will just pass through.
||
|| That isn't my argument. The part about not having a large glycogen
|| store is part of my argument.

What is how you began your first comment tothe OP, as I recall. You wrote:

"One reason is related to the exercise component. The body normally
stores glycogen in and around the muscles. Glycogen is one part carb
and four parts water. It is fuel that can be burned quickly, when the
muscles are called on to work hard. If you are doing the exercise
component of Atkins properly, ie lots of exercise daily, then
especially during the weight loss phases, your body will normally be
depleted of glycogen and so will have much less stored water."


Yes, Isee that I was not clear that as this glycogen is converted to
energy and burned, the water in the glycogen becomes available to the
body, and it gets used.

BTW - my perception of the exercise component of Atkins would allow must
people to exercise just fine - as I did long before I started riding my
bicycle. I don't think Atkins was recommending his LC diet for the athlete
but for typical normal people who were very likely sedentary, and certainly
not for those who ride a bicycle for 5+ hours.


As a low-carb dieter, you will have to drink water during any exercise
sooner than you would have to drink water were you not a low-carb
dieter.

|| The water you drink does not "just pass
|| through." Do you really think there is a passage way connecting your
|| mouth to you penis?



|| That didn't sound right, but you get my drift.

Yes, I get your point.

|| The
|| water you drink must be aborbed into you body to come out in urine
|| and sweat. If it just passed through, it would all come out your ass.

I agree. But that water won't be in and around the muscles - the place
where it would be if you were not LCing. That water can't be replaced
without carbs.


Yes, and you will have to drink sooner than you would if you had that
stored glycogen. During that exercise, you will have to drink a lot
more than you would if you had the glycogen. After your glycogen store
is gone, then you are effectively in the same boat as the low-carb
dieter, so if you exercise for a long period, at some point the
low-carb dieter is no different from the other guy, but not when they
start.

||| The bottom line: I think one's water needs will be the same whether
||| LCing or not.
||
|| But they're not.
||

Then where is the proof? Can you provide a cite of some type? I am open to
changing my mind on this, BTW.


Given my explanation above, what is it that you dispute?

||| Lyle's suggestion of 4 to 5 clear pees per day seems like the best
||| advice on water consumption. Electrolyte supplementation may be
||| necessary, however, for the LCing athlete.
|||
||| As far as dieting goes, almost every diet book in existence
||| recommends drinking ****loads of water. It has been shown
||| repeatedly that this recommendation is baseless in fact. But if
||| you have some citations somewhere that says that LCers NEED more
||| water because of restricted carbs, please pass that on.
||
|| We have discussed the reasons here, and you haven't refuted any of
|| them. I don't know if you compete at all, let alone compete while on
|| a
|| LC diet.

I do compete against myself. How can someone refute statements that aren't
concrete?


My argument has been concrete all along. My point about actually
competing is that if you have competed, I would expect you to have
insight that non-competitive athletes would not have.

||| Just for the heck of it, though, i'm going to gorge on water before
||| my Thursday AM ride, which I will do while LCing (I've done this
||| before, BTW). I'm sure I'll be uncomfortable with a belly full of
||| water while riding up the first hill.
||
|| You shouldn't gorge on water at all, and certainly not before hard
|| training. You should be hydrated, and you should drink during the
|| ride.

Okay, so how does one know for sure if one is hydrated? I drink when I'm
thirsty. I don't see the need to "drink lots of water on low carb",
especially if I'm not doing a long bike ride.


If you don't see what I'm talking about at this point, you're on your
own.

  #44  
Old September 1st, 2004, 03:19 PM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
:::::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::::::::
::::::::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::::::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::::::::
:::::::::::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
:::::::::::::: "John E" wrote:
::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::: Hi folks,
:::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::: I heard on TV that you must remain VERY hydrated, i.e.
::::::::::::::: drink
::::::::::::::: lots and lots of water when you are in Ketosis. They
::::::::::::::: guy gave no reason.
:::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::: Can somoene please explain the detailed reason behind
::::::::::::::: it?
:::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::: Does being-hydrated help you lose weight faster?
::::::::::::::: Does it give you energy so you won't give up?
::::::::::::::: Or is it a necessity so you won't develop kidney
::::::::::::::: problems because that organ HATES ketone concentration.
:::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::: Your help is appreciated,
::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::: One reason is related to the exercise component. The body
:::::::::::::: normally stores glycogen in and around the muscles.
:::::::::::::: Glycogen is one part carb and four parts water. It is
:::::::::::::: fuel that can be burned quickly, when the muscles are
:::::::::::::: called on to work hard.
:::::::::::::: If you are doing the exercise component of Atkins
:::::::::::::: properly, ie lots of exercise daily, then especially
:::::::::::::: during the weight loss phases, your body will normally
:::::::::::::: be depleted of glycogen and so will have much less
:::::::::::::: stored water. Drinking all this extra
:::::::::::::: water helps keep the level up to where it would normally
:::::::::::::: be if
:::::::::::::: you were eating more carbs. It is especially important if
:::::::::::::: you
:::::::::::::: are training hard.
::::::::::::
:::::::::::: So if there is little glycogen, how can the muscle be
:::::::::::: holding water?
:::::::::::
::::::::::: It isn't holding nearly as much. That's the point. You have
::::::::::: to keep drinking.
:::::::::::
:::::::::::: You
:::::::::::: can guzzle all the water you want, but the water will just
:::::::::::: flow through and it won't stored in the muscles with
:::::::::::: glycogen if
:::::::::::: you're exercising and restricting carbs.
:::::::::::
::::::::::: The drinking isn't for storing the water. The drinking is
::::::::::: for ensuring water is there for the processes that need it,
::::::::::: because they can't get enough of it by burning glycogen,
::::::::::: when there isn't much glycogen to be burned.
:::::::::
::::::::: But a LCer can drink all the water in the world, but since the
::::::::: carbs are low there will be little glycogen for water to bind
::::::::: to, hence it won't be stored in and around muscle tissue and
::::::::: in the liver. That water weight can only be replaced by
::::::::: upping the carbs
::::::::: or eating enough protein to get glycogen stores refilled as a
::::::::: result of conversion. Water can be other places in the
::::::::: body....
::::::::
:::::::: That's right, but that's why drinking water is so important
:::::::: for an athlete on a low-carb diet. I'm not talking about
:::::::: replacing water weight. I'm talking about ensuring that
:::::::: sufficient water is available when it is needed.
::::::
:::::: Sure....everyone needs sufficient water and low-carbers are no
:::::: different.
:::::
::::: Low-carbers *are* different in that they don't have a large store
::::: of glycogen to call on during training and competing.
:::
::: True, but as far as water requirements go...
::
:: ...if you are a low-carber in a depleted glycogen state when you
:: begin your race, ride, or other workout, you will have to drink
:: water a lot sooner to avoid dehydration-caused performance
:: degradation than you would if your glycogen store was not depleted.

Okay, I can accept this now because of your response below.

::
::::::::::: When you try your first century without drinking water, you
::::::::::: will
::::::::::: see what I mean. You probably won't reach the finish line.
:::::::::
::::::::: You don't think I'd try a century without drinking water, do
::::::::: you? I won't even do 20 miles without water.
::::::::
:::::::: Good, but on a full glycogen load, I can go hard for two hours
:::::::: without drinking water, with no ill effects or drop in
:::::::: performance. That's much further than 20 miles. When I am
:::::::: low-carbing, I can't go anywhere near that long without
:::::::: drinking.
::::::
:::::: Well, one thing about low-carbing is the loss of electrolytes
:::::: like sodium, potassium, and magnesium due to ketosis. So, when
:::::: you're glycogen loaded you won't have a deficiency in these and
:::::: your muscles have glycogen, so you can tap type 2 fibers more to
:::::: enable you to go hard.
:::::
::::: You can be low on electrolytes whether you have a large glycogen
::::: store
::::: or not.
:::
::: True, but ketosis does have the effect of driving electrolytes from
::: the body...so a LCer is more likely to be low on those...and that
::: may impact exercise performance.
::
:: It certainly will, and drinking water won't replace them.

Right. But it occurs to me that if you're glycogen depleted all week and
then wish to do a long ride or something similar, it might be a good idea to
include plenty of electrolytes during the carb up -- assuming they need to
be in muscle tissue.

::
:::::: On low carb, you're
:::::: deplete of all of these (electrolytes and gylcogen), so going
:::::: hard will be, er, hard. You can get muscle cramps and not have
:::::: much of an attitude for going hard. I think this occurs regards
:::::: of how much water one drinks, provided one has enough. I don't
:::::: see what extra water will do if you're low on electrolytes and
:::::: gylcogen and that impairing exercise ability.
:::::
::::: Among other things, you need water to carry away waste and to cool
::::: the
::::: body.
:::
::: Sure. However, I'm talking about the extra water.
::
:: There is no extra water. The water recommended by Atkins isn't extra,
:: if you are also doing the exercise component of Atkins.

What exercise component are you referring to? This can vary from 30 minutes
of daily walking to a lot more than that.

::
:::::: Your argument is that a LCer needs more water because water is
:::::: lost in and around muscles due to depleted glycogen stores. But
:::::: just drinking more water while LCing doesn't replenish that
:::::: water - no matter how much you drink. The water will just pass
:::::: through.
:::::
::::: That isn't my argument. The part about not having a large glycogen
::::: store is part of my argument.
:::
::: What is how you began your first comment tothe OP, as I recall.
::: You wrote:
:::
::: "One reason is related to the exercise component. The body normally
::: stores glycogen in and around the muscles. Glycogen is one part carb
::: and four parts water. It is fuel that can be burned quickly, when
::: the muscles are called on to work hard. If you are doing the
::: exercise
::: component of Atkins properly, ie lots of exercise daily, then
::: especially during the weight loss phases, your body will normally be
::: depleted of glycogen and so will have much less stored water."
::
:: Yes, Isee that I was not clear that as this glycogen is converted to
:: energy and burned, the water in the glycogen becomes available to the
:: body, and it gets used.

Yes, I can accept this, as it sounds reasonable.

::
::: BTW - my perception of the exercise component of Atkins would allow
::: must people to exercise just fine - as I did long before I started
::: riding my bicycle. I don't think Atkins was recommending his LC
::: diet for the athlete but for typical normal people who were very
::: likely sedentary, and certainly not for those who ride a bicycle
::: for 5+ hours.
::
:: As a low-carb dieter, you will have to drink water during any
:: exercise sooner than you would have to drink water were you not a
:: low-carb dieter.

I can accept this, though I have not noticed this in my own experience, but
perhaps I wasn't paying close attention.

::
::::: The water you drink does not "just pass
::::: through." Do you really think there is a passage way connecting
::::: your mouth to you penis?
:::
:::
:::
::::: That didn't sound right, but you get my drift.
:::
::: Yes, I get your point.
:::
::::: The
::::: water you drink must be aborbed into you body to come out in urine
::::: and sweat. If it just passed through, it would all come out your
::::: ass.
:::
::: I agree. But that water won't be in and around the muscles - the
::: place where it would be if you were not LCing. That water can't be
::: replaced without carbs.
::
:: Yes, and you will have to drink sooner than you would if you had that
:: stored glycogen. During that exercise, you will have to drink a lot
:: more than you would if you had the glycogen. After your glycogen
:: store is gone, then you are effectively in the same boat as the
:: low-carb dieter, so if you exercise for a long period, at some point
:: the low-carb dieter is no different from the other guy, but not when
:: they start.

That make sense. But a LC dieter doing very long periods of exercise will
probably hit the wall, even though the wall may be at different locations
for different people.

::
:::::: The bottom line: I think one's water needs will be the same
:::::: whether LCing or not.
:::::
::::: But they're not.
:::::
:::
::: Then where is the proof? Can you provide a cite of some type? I
::: am open to changing my mind on this, BTW.
::
:: Given my explanation above, what is it that you dispute?

Nothing, now.

::
:::::: Lyle's suggestion of 4 to 5 clear pees per day seems like the
:::::: best advice on water consumption. Electrolyte supplementation
:::::: may be necessary, however, for the LCing athlete.
::::::
:::::: As far as dieting goes, almost every diet book in existence
:::::: recommends drinking ****loads of water. It has been shown
:::::: repeatedly that this recommendation is baseless in fact. But if
:::::: you have some citations somewhere that says that LCers NEED more
:::::: water because of restricted carbs, please pass that on.
:::::
::::: We have discussed the reasons here, and you haven't refuted any of
::::: them. I don't know if you compete at all, let alone compete while
::::: on a
::::: LC diet.
:::
::: I do compete against myself. How can someone refute statements
::: that aren't concrete?
::
:: My argument has been concrete all along. My point about actually
:: competing is that if you have competed, I would expect you to have
:: insight that non-competitive athletes would not have.

Makes sense. However, hitting the wall is something anyone who low-carbs
can do at a certain point while exercising. I've certainly done it while
riding long and hard.

::
:::::: Just for the heck of it, though, i'm going to gorge on water
:::::: before my Thursday AM ride, which I will do while LCing (I've
:::::: done this before, BTW). I'm sure I'll be uncomfortable with a
:::::: belly full of water while riding up the first hill.
:::::
::::: You shouldn't gorge on water at all, and certainly not before hard
::::: training. You should be hydrated, and you should drink during the
::::: ride.
:::
::: Okay, so how does one know for sure if one is hydrated? I drink
::: when I'm thirsty. I don't see the need to "drink lots of water on
::: low carb", especially if I'm not doing a long bike ride.
::
:: If you don't see what I'm talking about at this point, you're on your
:: own.

I still maintain this: there is no need to just drink extra water JUST
because you're LCing. As you have stated, if you're LCing and exercising,
you'll need water sooner than not, so making sure you don't go long periods
with thirst should work out fine. The general problem with the entire
argument about water is that many LC dieters just guzzle lots of water even
when they're doing nothing and are not even thirsty.


  #45  
Old September 1st, 2004, 05:59 PM
PlacidBull
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I take my current weight and divide it by two. That then is the number of
ounces of water I drink a day.

Not sure if it is a valid formula but it has worked for my for the last
year.

Placid
203/151/149

"Martin W. Smith" wrote in message
news
"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Martin W. Smith wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||| Martin W. Smith wrote:
||||| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
|||||
|||||| Martin W. Smith wrote:
|||||||| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||||||||
||||||||| Martin W. Smith wrote:
||||||||||| "John E" wrote:
|||||||||||
|||||||||||| Hi folks,
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| I heard on TV that you must remain VERY hydrated, i.e.
|||||||||||| drink
|||||||||||| lots and lots of water when you are in Ketosis. They guy
|||||||||||| gave no reason.
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| Can somoene please explain the detailed reason behind it?
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| Does being-hydrated help you lose weight faster?
|||||||||||| Does it give you energy so you won't give up?
|||||||||||| Or is it a necessity so you won't develop kidney problems
|||||||||||| because that organ HATES ketone concentration.
||||||||||||
|||||||||||| Your help is appreciated,
|||||||||||
||||||||||| One reason is related to the exercise component. The body
||||||||||| normally stores glycogen in and around the muscles. Glycogen
||||||||||| is one part carb and four parts water. It is fuel that can
||||||||||| be burned quickly, when the muscles are called on to work
||||||||||| hard.
||||||||||| If you are doing the exercise component of Atkins properly,
||||||||||| ie lots of exercise daily, then especially during the
||||||||||| weight loss phases, your body will normally be depleted of
||||||||||| glycogen and so will have much less stored water. Drinking
||||||||||| all this extra
||||||||||| water helps keep the level up to where it would normally be
||||||||||| if
||||||||||| you were eating more carbs. It is especially important if
||||||||||| you
||||||||||| are training hard.
|||||||||
||||||||| So if there is little glycogen, how can the muscle be holding
||||||||| water?
||||||||
|||||||| It isn't holding nearly as much. That's the point. You have to
|||||||| keep drinking.
||||||||
||||||||| You
||||||||| can guzzle all the water you want, but the water will just
||||||||| flow through and it won't stored in the muscles with glycogen
||||||||| if
||||||||| you're exercising and restricting carbs.
||||||||
|||||||| The drinking isn't for storing the water. The drinking is for
|||||||| ensuring water is there for the processes that need it, because
|||||||| they can't get enough of it by burning glycogen, when there
|||||||| isn't much glycogen to be burned.
||||||
|||||| But a LCer can drink all the water in the world, but since the
|||||| carbs are low there will be little glycogen for water to bind to,
|||||| hence it won't be stored in and around muscle tissue and in the
|||||| liver. That water weight can only be replaced by upping the
|||||| carbs
|||||| or eating enough protein to get glycogen stores refilled as a
|||||| result of conversion. Water can be other places in the body....
|||||
||||| That's right, but that's why drinking water is so important for an
||||| athlete on a low-carb diet. I'm not talking about replacing water
||||| weight. I'm talking about ensuring that sufficient water is
||||| available when it is needed.
|||
||| Sure....everyone needs sufficient water and low-carbers are no
||| different.
||
|| Low-carbers *are* different in that they don't have a large store of
|| glycogen to call on during training and competing.

True, but as far as water requirements go...


...if you are a low-carber in a depleted glycogen state when you begin
your race, ride, or other workout, you will have to drink water a lot
sooner to avoid dehydration-caused performance degradation than you
would if your glycogen store was not depleted.

|||||||| When you try your first century without drinking water, you
|||||||| will
|||||||| see what I mean. You probably won't reach the finish line.
||||||
|||||| You don't think I'd try a century without drinking water, do you?
|||||| I won't even do 20 miles without water.
|||||
||||| Good, but on a full glycogen load, I can go hard for two hours
||||| without drinking water, with no ill effects or drop in
||||| performance. That's much further than 20 miles. When I am
||||| low-carbing, I can't go anywhere near that long without drinking.
|||
||| Well, one thing about low-carbing is the loss of electrolytes like
||| sodium, potassium, and magnesium due to ketosis. So, when you're
||| glycogen loaded you won't have a deficiency in these and your
||| muscles have glycogen, so you can tap type 2 fibers more to enable
||| you to go hard.
||
|| You can be low on electrolytes whether you have a large glycogen
|| store
|| or not.

True, but ketosis does have the effect of driving electrolytes from the
body...so a LCer is more likely to be low on those...and that may impact
exercise performance.


It certainly will, and drinking water won't replace them.

||| On low carb, you're
||| deplete of all of these (electrolytes and gylcogen), so going hard
||| will be, er, hard. You can get muscle cramps and not have much of
||| an attitude for going hard. I think this occurs regards of how
||| much water one drinks, provided one has enough. I don't see what
||| extra water will do if you're low on electrolytes and gylcogen and
||| that impairing exercise ability.
||
|| Among other things, you need water to carry away waste and to cool
|| the
|| body.

Sure. However, I'm talking about the extra water.


There is no extra water. The water recommended by Atkins isn't extra,
if you are also doing the exercise component of Atkins.

||| Your argument is that a LCer needs more water because water is lost
||| in and around muscles due to depleted glycogen stores. But just
||| drinking more water while LCing doesn't replenish that water - no
||| matter how much you drink. The water will just pass through.
||
|| That isn't my argument. The part about not having a large glycogen
|| store is part of my argument.

What is how you began your first comment tothe OP, as I recall. You
wrote:

"One reason is related to the exercise component. The body normally
stores glycogen in and around the muscles. Glycogen is one part carb
and four parts water. It is fuel that can be burned quickly, when the
muscles are called on to work hard. If you are doing the exercise
component of Atkins properly, ie lots of exercise daily, then
especially during the weight loss phases, your body will normally be
depleted of glycogen and so will have much less stored water."


Yes, Isee that I was not clear that as this glycogen is converted to
energy and burned, the water in the glycogen becomes available to the
body, and it gets used.

BTW - my perception of the exercise component of Atkins would allow must
people to exercise just fine - as I did long before I started riding my
bicycle. I don't think Atkins was recommending his LC diet for the
athlete
but for typical normal people who were very likely sedentary, and
certainly
not for those who ride a bicycle for 5+ hours.


As a low-carb dieter, you will have to drink water during any exercise
sooner than you would have to drink water were you not a low-carb
dieter.

|| The water you drink does not "just pass
|| through." Do you really think there is a passage way connecting your
|| mouth to you penis?



|| That didn't sound right, but you get my drift.

Yes, I get your point.

|| The
|| water you drink must be aborbed into you body to come out in urine
|| and sweat. If it just passed through, it would all come out your ass.

I agree. But that water won't be in and around the muscles - the place
where it would be if you were not LCing. That water can't be replaced
without carbs.


Yes, and you will have to drink sooner than you would if you had that
stored glycogen. During that exercise, you will have to drink a lot
more than you would if you had the glycogen. After your glycogen store
is gone, then you are effectively in the same boat as the low-carb
dieter, so if you exercise for a long period, at some point the
low-carb dieter is no different from the other guy, but not when they
start.

||| The bottom line: I think one's water needs will be the same whether
||| LCing or not.
||
|| But they're not.
||

Then where is the proof? Can you provide a cite of some type? I am open
to
changing my mind on this, BTW.


Given my explanation above, what is it that you dispute?

||| Lyle's suggestion of 4 to 5 clear pees per day seems like the best
||| advice on water consumption. Electrolyte supplementation may be
||| necessary, however, for the LCing athlete.
|||
||| As far as dieting goes, almost every diet book in existence
||| recommends drinking ****loads of water. It has been shown
||| repeatedly that this recommendation is baseless in fact. But if
||| you have some citations somewhere that says that LCers NEED more
||| water because of restricted carbs, please pass that on.
||
|| We have discussed the reasons here, and you haven't refuted any of
|| them. I don't know if you compete at all, let alone compete while on
|| a
|| LC diet.

I do compete against myself. How can someone refute statements that
aren't
concrete?


My argument has been concrete all along. My point about actually
competing is that if you have competed, I would expect you to have
insight that non-competitive athletes would not have.

||| Just for the heck of it, though, i'm going to gorge on water before
||| my Thursday AM ride, which I will do while LCing (I've done this
||| before, BTW). I'm sure I'll be uncomfortable with a belly full of
||| water while riding up the first hill.
||
|| You shouldn't gorge on water at all, and certainly not before hard
|| training. You should be hydrated, and you should drink during the
|| ride.

Okay, so how does one know for sure if one is hydrated? I drink when I'm
thirsty. I don't see the need to "drink lots of water on low carb",
especially if I'm not doing a long bike ride.


If you don't see what I'm talking about at this point, you're on your
own.



  #46  
Old September 3rd, 2004, 08:17 AM
Martin W. Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Roger Zoul" wrote:

I still maintain this: there is no need to just drink extra water JUST
because you're LCing. As you have stated, if you're LCing and exercising,
you'll need water sooner than not, so making sure you don't go long periods
with thirst should work out fine. The general problem with the entire
argument about water is that many LC dieters just guzzle lots of water even
when they're doing nothing and are not even thirsty.


I think the extra water also serves to carry away waste more
efficiently, which is important whether you exercise or not. I also
suspect that staying fully hydrated should serve to dampen the effects
of some chemical processes in he body, due to dillution of the
chemicals involved. I imagine this might be important in carrying
away the chemicals resulting from ketosis, for example, which might
enhance the process of ketosis.

 




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