Low carb same as low cal?

Leafing through alt.support.diet, I read Daven Thrice's message of 14
Dec 2004:

Googles servers take several hours to update. Her posts will all be
there tomorrow.

The new version http://groups-beta.google.com usually posts within a
minute. At least that has been my experience. The old version used to take
a few hours.

Phil M.

The new version http://groups-beta.google.com usually posts within a
minute. At least that has been my experience. The old version used to
take
a few hours.

That "usually" is important. Yesterday google beta went boom and posts
took a day. Today it's back to taking a few minutes. Google groups
has
been like that for years; it's a part of the charm.

Ignoramus3578 wrote:
But this does not answer my question: can a person gain on LC if he
intentionally overeats? (eats more that he desires)

Since weight is still basically a function of calories in/calories out,
I don't see how a person wouldn't -eventually- gain weight regardless
of the macronutrient content if they are consuming more calories than
they are expending.

Jenn

But this does not answer my question: can a person gain on LC if he
intentionally overeats? (eats more that he desires)

Depends entirely on the amounts. Being in ketosis protects against
small amounts of excess calories triggering new fat storage, but eat
enough excess calories and you'll fall out of ketosis whether the
excess
calories are fat, carb or protein. There's also the potential to gain
unwanted lean though few complain about that even while in ketosis.

But LC isn't always ketosis based. Most especially on Atkins a
goal of phase 1 is to get into ketosis, a goal at the start of phase 2
is to get out of ketosis to find out how much carb you can eat while
staying in ketosis, and phases 3 and 4 are out of ketosis. Maintenace
on Atkins is LC but it doesn't have any protection against fat gain.

Ig wrote:

Do you have evidence for your last statement? (that maintenance does
not protect against weight gain).

There's a cop-out available: If you're gaining weight you aren't *on*
your maintenance plan any more.

I've regained around half of my original loss. Did I do that by times
not on my maintenance plan? I think so. Did I drift up while
following the detailed rules of Atkins maintenance, personalized
to myself per the directions? I don't think so.

Essentially, what I am wondering about is whether the calorie laws
apply to LC situation.

The *entire* calorie laws apply to LC situation, including the part
that so many forget: changable metabolism. Because ketosis
tends to increase metabolism at least at first, it can look like
calorie laws broke. Dr A claimed that excess fat is wasted but
I'm dubious about that. Maybe excess dietary fat isn't absorbed,
but that would be about it I suspect.

During Induction water loss is so fast it seems like you can eat
unlimited amounts and still lose. During later phases folks
who've spent a lot of time struggling on low calorie might think
they are eating lots but it usually turns out they are just eating
near calorie guidelines.

Consider the "metabolic edge" of ketosis. The more excess fat
the body has the more the edge; the less excess fat the body
has the less the edge. This is why folks with 100+ to lose can
sometimes ignore calorie guidelines and lose anyways but try
that with 20 to lose and forget it. The edge seems to
dissappear competely when you have somewhere from 10-20
left to lose.

Can you gain weight if your body produces next to no insulin?
I read somewhere that insulin production stops once blood sugar
goes below 83.

When folks stay at 20 lots stall but none seem to gain. I
dunno furshur.

Most who gain on Atkins are out of ketosis, but "most"
isn't "all". No plan works for everyone and Atkins is no
exception. It's just that Atkins is a fully customized
system and customized beats one-size-fits-all so done
according to the directions it works for more than most
one-size systems.

JK Sinrod thinks that one cannot gain weight on LC,
based on his experience.

I wish.

I have not seen any studies either.

Studies have just barely made it into using Induction for
several months.

"Ignoramus3578" wrote in message
...
This is precisely the problem my BF is
having, having lost about 40 lbs in 6 months on Atkins. He found the
diet
relatively easy to stick to for the time he was on it. He did not feel
hungry, but he did feel deprived of the foods he loved (esp. having to
give
up good beer) and pretty much went back to his old ways once he was down
around his goal weight. He has probably regained about 15 lbs of the
weight
he lost (although probably 5 lbs or so of that was water weight
lost/regained).

I always wonder why people spend to much effort losing weight, to only
waste all that effort with cinnamon rolls or whatever. Is he thinking
rationally about this issue?

I think there is a certainly an element of rationalizing as opposed to
rational thinking. He tends to be an all-or-nothing kind of guy and leaps
into new endeavors with great enthusiasm but sometimes weakens his resolve
in the long-term follow-through.

The problem is a little more complex than just "too many cinnamon rolls." As
his lifestyle has changed and continues to change, he's struggling to find a
healthy balance, just like a lot of us. The bigger picture is that for many
years he worked a physically demanding, manual labor-type job (with lots of
outdoor activity on top of that) and stayed at a normal weight, despite the
fact that he ate a pretty typical twentysomething bachelor male crap diet.
About 5 years ago he switched from manual to a skilled labor that is not
completely sedentary, but which involves a lot less exercise than
previously, and his weight slowly began to climb.

After losing the weight, there were additional lifestyle changes in the form
of adding a GF (indeed, basically a whole almost-stepfamily). Since I'm
already having to balance the tastes of one child who doesn't eat much
vegetables with the tastes of the other child who doesn't eat much
meat--carbs are the one thing they agree on and I'm not interested in
preparing low-carb options to meet someone else's diet! I suppose he could
prepare his own meals, but that takes away what I feel to be an important
bonding ritual. He also drives to work most days instead of walking to the
train because there's no metro stop within walking distance of my place. He
tends to be overoptimistic about how much exercise he'll fit in to a week.
In part because, like a little bower bird, he's been busy all fall prettying
his nest in order to attract his chosen mate.

Fortunately for him, I don't think it's going to take a huge correction to
steer his ship back on course: a return to earlier habits of daily walking
and several hours of more intense aerobic exercise each week, and the
realization that this active lifestyle may "earn" him 500 extra calories of
snacks/desserts, or 500 extra calories of beer, but not both.

"Ignoramus3578" wrote in message
...
This is precisely the problem my BF is
having, having lost about 40 lbs in 6 months on Atkins. He found the
diet
relatively easy to stick to for the time he was on it. He did not feel
hungry, but he did feel deprived of the foods he loved (esp. having to
give
up good beer) and pretty much went back to his old ways once he was down
around his goal weight. He has probably regained about 15 lbs of the
weight
he lost (although probably 5 lbs or so of that was water weight
lost/regained).

I always wonder why people spend to much effort losing weight, to only
waste all that effort with cinnamon rolls or whatever. Is he thinking
rationally about this issue?

I think there is a certainly an element of rationalizing as opposed to
rational thinking. He tends to be an all-or-nothing kind of guy and leaps
into new endeavors with great enthusiasm but sometimes weakens his resolve
in the long-term follow-through.

The problem is a little more complex than just "too many cinnamon rolls." As
his lifestyle has changed and continues to change, he's struggling to find a
healthy balance, just like a lot of us. The bigger picture is that for many
years he worked a physically demanding, manual labor-type job (with lots of
outdoor activity on top of that) and stayed at a normal weight, despite the
fact that he ate a pretty typical twentysomething bachelor male crap diet.
About 5 years ago he switched from manual to a skilled labor that is not
completely sedentary, but which involves a lot less exercise than
previously, and his weight slowly began to climb.

After losing the weight, there were additional lifestyle changes in the form
of adding a GF (indeed, basically a whole almost-stepfamily). Since I'm
already having to balance the tastes of one child who doesn't eat much
vegetables with the tastes of the other child who doesn't eat much
meat--carbs are the one thing they agree on and I'm not interested in
preparing low-carb options to meet someone else's diet! I suppose he could
prepare his own meals, but that takes away what I feel to be an important
bonding ritual. He also drives to work most days instead of walking to the
train because there's no metro stop within walking distance of my place. He
tends to be overoptimistic about how much exercise he'll fit in to a week.
In part because, like a little bower bird, he's been busy all fall prettying
his nest in order to attract his chosen mate.

Fortunately for him, I don't think it's going to take a huge correction to
steer his ship back on course: a return to earlier habits of daily walking
and several hours of more intense aerobic exercise each week, and the
realization that this active lifestyle may "earn" him 500 extra calories of
snacks/desserts, or 500 extra calories of beer, but not both.

DrLith wrote:

He tends to be an all-or-nothing kind of guy ...

With very few exceptions, all-or-nothing equals nothing.

Anyone who follows ASD for a while will notice that the folks who try
the hardest and are in the biggest hurry are usually the ones who
stop posting the soonest. Rare but happy is the exception.

Ig wrote:

Do you have evidence for your last statement? (that maintenance does
not protect against weight gain).

There's a cop-out available: If you're gaining weight you aren't *on*
your maintenance plan any more.

I've regained around half of my original loss. Did I do that by times
not on my maintenance plan? I think so. Did I drift up while
following the detailed rules of Atkins maintenance, personalized
to myself per the directions? I don't think so.

Essentially, what I am wondering about is whether the calorie laws
apply to LC situation.

The *entire* calorie laws apply to LC situation, including the part
that so many forget: changable metabolism. Because ketosis
tends to increase metabolism at least at first, it can look like
calorie laws broke. Dr A claimed that excess fat is wasted but
I'm dubious about that. Maybe excess dietary fat isn't absorbed,
but that would be about it I suspect.

During Induction water loss is so fast it seems like you can eat
unlimited amounts and still lose. During later phases folks
who've spent a lot of time struggling on low calorie might think
they are eating lots but it usually turns out they are just eating
near calorie guidelines.

Consider the "metabolic edge" of ketosis. The more excess fat
the body has the more the edge; the less excess fat the body
has the less the edge. This is why folks with 100+ to lose can
sometimes ignore calorie guidelines and lose anyways but try
that with 20 to lose and forget it. The edge seems to
dissappear competely when you have somewhere from 10-20
left to lose.

Can you gain weight if your body produces next to no insulin?
I read somewhere that insulin production stops once blood sugar
goes below 83.

When folks stay at 20 lots stall but none seem to gain. I
dunno furshur.

Most who gain on Atkins are out of ketosis, but "most"
isn't "all". No plan works for everyone and Atkins is no
exception. It's just that Atkins is a fully customized
system and customized beats one-size-fits-all so done
according to the directions it works for more than most
one-size systems.

JK Sinrod thinks that one cannot gain weight on LC,
based on his experience.

I wish.

I have not seen any studies either.

Studies have just barely made it into using Induction for
several months.

It sounds like you have the correct idea of low-carbing in relation to
calorie counting. It's an alternative way to help you control your
hunger by taking in your calories via supposedly more satisfying
higher-fat foods and avoiding hunger cravings.

Give it a try!

doug


Daven Thrice wrote:
I've been thinking about my diet and how I want to handle it. The low-cal
stuff hasn't been working out because I haven't been keeping track. (Maybe
deep inside I just like being fat.) Fortunately, I did break my
pigging-out-all-day habit and have only gained back a little.

I did learn a lot and I want to move forward. I've been considering a
low-carb approach. It seems to me that most of the calories in a lot of
foods comes from the starches. Hamburgers, sandwiches, breaded chicken,
pasta, cake, bread... all bad stuff. All of it.

Looking at a low-carb diet, what I see is that by counting carbs you're
really counting calories. (As long as you're not eating pork fat by the
pound.) Basically, it seems that if you go with reasonably low-fat meats on
a low-carb diet, you're automatically on a low-cal diet too.

For example, 3 eggs fried in butter with an oz of cheese, maybe 400
calories, and 4 carbs. That's breakfast.

Lunch is a huge tuna salad, with mostly leafy green veggies. Lets see,
calorie-wise tuna is about 150, figure 200 more for a big glob of dressing,
maybe some cheese and nuts, call it 500 calories and (hey) about 5 carbs.

Dinner.... a half pound of chicken breast, no bones, *with skin*, a cup of
raw broccoli, a medium carrot and salad dressing gives us a whopping total
of 800 calories and 8 carbs. (I do see a pattern!)

Wow, those are three pretty big meals, even for a big guy like me, for a
total of 1700 calories at induction level carbs. Actually, at 2200 cal/20
carbs a day, there's quite a bit of room for an evening snack.

Like I said, I'm not doing great, but I'm not doing too bad either. The
low-cal dieting did work pretty well, but I just can 't hang with it as a
WOL. I'm open to any discussion here on healthy low-carbing, in terms of
calories, food selections, or whatever.

dt