Wesley clark just entered the race

"Lexin" wrote in message
om...
....
As has already been pointed out in this thread, over 30m people died
in WW2 defending freedom. Around 290,000 of those were from the US.
Let's not include part of the 50 or so million that Stalin killed in his
internal purges in order to rid himself of those that dissented to his
vision of a workers paradise. To include them as valorous participants is
quite disingenuous of you.

I've let your 30m assertion lie, as it was only ancillary to the issue. But
I grow weary of your constant repetition of an inaccurate figure.

Total human beings exterminated over the course of the war:
Soldiers: 22.0M
Civilians
In camps, from Fascist terror: 12.0M
From hostilities, blockade, epidemics, hunger: 14.5M
From bombing: 1.5M
Total: 50M

The country-by-country medians for military personnel killed in the war a
USSR: 10.0M
Germany: 3.5M
China: 2.05M
Japan: 1.5M
USA: 0.4M
Romania: 0.3M
Yugoslavia: 0.3M
UK: 0.28M
Italy: 0.23M
France: 0.21M
Hungary: 0.14M
Poland: 0.125M
TOTAL: 19.0M
[Source: various; Britannica, Rummel (1990), Davies (1998), Urlanis]

Even more sickening are the "democides" (deaths by governments against their
own citizens) for the Stalin era (1924-53). While numbers vary (depends on
the 'slant' of the historian), the median number hovers around 50-51,000,000
human beings!

....
As far as the cold war goes, the West was in it together. The USA
So, was this a "good thing" or a "bad thing"?

shares (if I remember my geography) a tiny portion of its border with
It does not. Unless you consider the one with "The Peoples Republic of
Kalifornia" ... (:-)!

the former USSR, but part of Germany was handed over to the
communists. There is no moral high ground here, and trying to take it
It was not "handed over to the communists", it was a part of the Yalta
agreement formulated for Roosevelt by Stalinist spies, Alger Hiss, and Harry
Dexter White. With the help of those insiders, Stalin "got" to take Poland,
the eastern third of Germany, and Hungary among other spoils.

What that has to do with "moral high ground", is beyond me. That
arrangement sucked (esp. for those in E.Germany, Poland, Hungary, etc...).
They should have let Patton have his way.

on behalf of your nation only makes you look foolish.
No, my friend, it is you that looks simplistic, complicit, *and* foolish!

Gotta go,
DustyB

"Lexin" wrote in message
...
....
"HealthNutz" wrote:
Liberal, elitist
intelligentsia ruminations at their pointless finest!

I think if you don't understand why your thinking here is sloppy, we
probably have nothing further to discuss.
On the contrary, my friend. It is you that is blind, and operating sans
thinking.

You equate "talking" about things, to "doing" something. And *that* is why
you and your socialist ilk are always in trouble...

DustyB

"Sir Algernon 'Splidgy' Streeve-Greebling" wrote in
message ...
....
No, grasshopper, your leaders have learned well, but they have learned
nothing. The USA is now marching into a bigger, better global conflict,
but
"Better"?

this time armed with infinitely more terrifying weaponry, an infinitely
greater sense of blinkered self-righteousness and infinitely more
I love that term, "blinkered self-righteousness". How morally superior and
indignant sounding!

But, to quote an old friend of mine, "Moral indignation is nothing more than
jealousy with a halo!" -- HGWells

impassioned hatred ranged against it. Previous wars were primarily
territorial. This one is ideological, much like the Crusades. As such,
it
is going to be far longer and far nastier ...
I'll agree with that.

But if the US doesn't stand up to terror, who then? You, "grasshopper"?

If what the US is doing is wrong, what would you suggest? Roll over and
play dead? Or learn to pray to Allah on your knees while listening to bad
tapes of gawd-awful caterwauling 5-times/day?

Since none of the rest of the world is willing or able to do anything; you
should probably obey: Lead! Follow! Or get the hell outta the way!

I'm delighted that my country is standing up for freedom and liberty, even
if you aren't. And I'm willing to endure the slings and the arrows of the
those that would rather take the easy path, and submit to totalitarianism.


L8r,
DustyB

"HealthNutz" wrote:
You equate "talking" about things, to "doing" something. And *that*
is why
you and your socialist ilk are always in trouble...

Er...no.

--
Lexin
www.redrosepress.co.uk
www.livejournal.com/~lexin
LC since 9 June 2003
(300/263/182)

"HealthNutz" wrote:
But, to quote an old friend of mine, "Moral indignation is nothing
more than
jealousy with a halo!" -- HGWells

Well, precisely. And moral indignation, it seems to me, is exactly the
attititude you're displaying with regard to Europe in our earlier
discussion.

--
Lexin
www.redrosepress.co.uk
www.livejournal.com/~lexin
LC since 9 June 2003
(300/263/182)

Er...no.

DustyB

"Lexin" wrote in message
...
"HealthNutz" wrote:
But, to quote an old friend of mine, "Moral indignation is nothing
more than
jealousy with a halo!" -- HGWells

Well, precisely. And moral indignation, it seems to me, is exactly the
attititude you're displaying with regard to Europe in our earlier
discussion.
....

"HealthNutz" wrote:
I looked through several years of newspapers, and couldn't find a
single
instance of such civil/human rights abuses here. Perhaps you'd care
to
enlighten us?

Well, personally and without wishing to open a whole different can of
worms, I think that any country which still has the death penalty and
moreover a death penalty which seems to be more imposed on black people
than it is on whites has quite a way to go in the human rights field.

Additionally, there's the problem of poor people not having the same
access to healthcare as everyone else. And there's that weird place
those poor people who were considered to be likely to have involvement
with terrorism were sent to - didn't look like equal access to justice
to me. Look closely at any country and you'll find issues which really
should be addressed, 'my country right or wrong' has always struck me as
being rather like 'my mother drunk or sober', it's understandable, but
it's not pretty.

--
Lexin
www.redrosepress.co.uk
www.livejournal.com/~lexin
LC since 9 June 2003
(300/263/182)

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:06:07 GMT, "Carmen "
wrote:

Have you ever thought about getting a license? I know when you looked
at Manfred's equipment you might have just seen a pile of metal with
lots of knobs but there's a wide array of niches available.
* Slow scan TV: passing pictures over the air via radio waves after
they've been digitized.
* Amateur TV: passing video over the air.
* Microwave frequency work. (A ham was responsible for developing
spread spectrum, frequency hopping technology.)
* Satellite work - you can use amateur satellites to work long distances
with low power by using the satellite as a rebroadcasting device.
* APRS: Using a GPSr and amateur radio to create a "tracking system".
* PSK31: Uses radio waves to pass text information realtime over the air
from one computer to another.
* Talk to the International Space Station.
* Fox Hunts: A transponder is hidden that emits a signal and using
triangulation techniques is hunted down.
* Morse Code or CW: This is still a viable option that's capable of
punching messages through on low power over long distances.
I know I probably sound like a recruiter, but it really is a good hobby,
although depending on what one does with it it can become a great deal
more. :-)

I found all of it very interesting but I haven't the time to take the
responsibility on...at least right now.


Carmen:
Sarge and I have similar outlooks on this sort of thing - the pride is
mutual.
We live in Clarksville, which is one of the communities that surrounds
Fort Campbell. It's about 45 minutes north of Nashville

Know it well. I have college buddies from there, visit Middle Tenn
frequently, uncle/aunt (deceased) that lived in the Green Hills area,
etc.


In reference to PDF417 codes on drivers' licenses
Crescent Mu_n wrote:
Guess who has figured out how to stuff your fingerprint, encrypted,
into that format?
Guess who has figured out how to stuff your DNA encoding, encrypted,
into that format?

Carmen:
Um, let me guess. The military branch of the gov't?

lol

They have been helpful, yes.

I know that the DNA samples they took from military folks can be used to
positively identify remains in the case of deaths that cause massive
tissue destruction like plane crashes, but it's the other possible uses
that give me pause.

Great pause.

Sometimes it would be nice not to think so much....

Yes, it would.

"HealthNutz" wrote in message
...
"Barry Smith" wrote in message
...

"HealthNutz" wrote in message
eastern Germany. Until just recently, they couldn't do what you are
doing.
And that same fate was AND STILL IS the goal of the international
communist
party today.

Do you have a link for this international communist party?
http://www.vcp.nu/vcpnieuws/links.htm
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/links/
http://www.basque-red.net/eng/links/ecomueng/c001.htm
http://www.wpiran.org/links/links.html
http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/index.php
http://www.communist-party.ca/links/WEurope.html
http://www.kominf.pp.fi/Textra.html
http://www.cpusa.org/article/archive/41/

Drop me a note when you've wended your way through these; I've got 360,000
more if you need them...

DustyB

Ta!

"Carmen " wrote in message ...
On 21-Sep-2003, (Chet Hayes) wrote:

Carmen wrote:
The incidents where air crews were allowed to throw Arab
appearing passengers off planes because they "made them nervous"
didn't arouse a general
outcry either.

Chet wrote:
I thought the issue was what the US govt was doing, not one isolated
airline crew? Of the thousands of flights everyday, this happened
what once, maybe twice, yet it troubles you so and there is supposed
to be some public outcry over it? Without specifics, it's impossible
to know exactly what went on and who was right. There are far more
instances of flight crews having to deal with unruly passengers on a
regular basis. I'd much rather see flight crews have broad discretion
instead of tying their hands. Anyone treated unfairly has remedies
available in the civil courts and I'm sure the ACLU will be more than
happy to help them.

Carmen:
My point was that the American government, which is supposed to be the
protector of our rights, did nothing to protect the rights of the
minority in this case. In the instances that came to light the
passengers weren't removed from the planes because of *behavior* - that
would be appropriate - they were removed because of *appearance*.


It just really shows how wacked out your thinking is that a couple of
incidents of people being thrown off a plane is the first thing you
bring up as evidence of the evil ways of the US govt. This is a
country of 300 mil people, with thousands of airline flights a day.
This happens a couple of times, gets quickly picked up by the media,
and you complain that the US govt didn't protect their rights. What
exactly was the govt supposed to do? Should we give all arab looking
people John Ashcrofts cell phone number so that on the 1 in a million
chance this happens, they can call him on the spot?

Regarding airline procedures, Norman Maneta was interviewed on 60
minutes and made it clear that the DOT position is that everyone
should be screened and treated the same, regardless of where they are
from, what they look like, etc. He was asked, should an 80 year old
grandmother receive the same scrutiny that a group of young men of
middle eastern descent, with foreign passports that are praying before
getting on the plane get? His answer was, why of course. If I was
Bush, I would fire this idiot and get someone with some common sense,
but it shows what the govt is doing is just the opposite of what you
claim.






Carmen wrote:
The detention of people in jails without access to
lawyers and without charges being brought against them, the
denial of
access to the subpoenas used to detain some of these people on
the
government's insistence that the information was "secret" have
been noted and
forgotten.

Chet wrote:
Those that have been captured abroad are enemy combatants captured in
a war and are not US citizens. Did we provide a lawyer for those
captured in any previous war? Personally, I hope the military is
using evey means possible to extract info from these terrorists to
save lives.
There are a few people who are US citizens in all this that I would
agree are being treated unfairly. One is the Padilla (spelling) guy
from Chicago who was arrested for working with Al Qaida and has been
held for many months without access to a lawyer.

Carmen wrote:
This is the sort of person I was talking about - Americans, living in
America.

Chet wrote:
BTW, do you have any complaints about what the great liberal President
Roosevelt did when he locked up all the Japanese Americans during
WWII? Does it trouble you that there was no public outcry at the time
over that one?

Carmen wrote:
Hell yes! Racism is racism, regardless of the particular skin pigment
involved. Don't you see? We did that, within memory of people who are
alive right now, and *still* there was no outcry when some people
started talking along the same track - identity cards for
Arab-Americans? That ought to have set off a klaxon of alarm bells. It
didn't.


I'd like to see a link to anyone in the US govt that proposed identity
cards for Arab-Americans. What some have proposed is a national
identity card for everyone. As far as I know, none of these proposals
have come from the Bush administration or any govt agency.

BTW, it's easy to point the finger 50 years later at Roosevelt for
what he thought was the right thing at the time to save the country
fighting a world war. Now we know the outcome, that the US won the
war, and that the Japanese Americans were no serious threat.
Roosevelt didn't have the luxury of knowing how history would turn
out.



Carmen wrote:
Yet people like Chet will castigate me in one post for my views,
challenging me to produce instances of abusive behaviors on the
government's part, then remain strangely silent when I post those
instances. Hmmm...

Chet wrote:
Never have to worry about silence here. This is the first specifics
I've seen from you.

Carmen:
You didn't comment on them until I noted that you hadn't. They were
made the day *before* you said I hadn't provided specifics. The post
you responded to, which this is in turn a response to, was made the
18th. Your post asking for specifics was made the *19th*.


Carmen