"Food for Fuel" vs. "Food is LOVE & Food is FUN"

Try eating whole unprocessed foods. Eat a can of tuna,
as is, and I bet by the end you won't be hungry for more.
Eat whole fruits. Eat an entire box of frozen spinach
microwaved, bet you won't want more afterwards.

Are you trying to eat for nutrition or make yourself hate
food? It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself
that food is a bad thing and should not be eaten.

Warning: Descriptions of Tasty Foods ahead. Most of us are here to
lose weight, I would hate to be responsible for giving anyone unwanted
food cravings.

Make yourself hate food? No. Make yourself not crave unhealthy bad
foods, perhaps.

I've spent years trying to undo my European upbringing where
high-quality well-prepared good food paired with beautiful wine is
seen as one of the most celebrated and life-giving and cherished joys
in one's daily life. Instead I've tried to get my head into the
American athletic view of "food is merely fuel." And as fuel, you eat
only the cleanest foods possible in the lowest amounts possible and
only when you work out. These people tend to be thin and trim.

The other side of the fence are chefs and foodies and wine
connoisseurs where food and eating is rejoiced for its own sake. Food
is entertainment, food is joy, and food is used to celebrate one's
quality of life. Renown local chef Jasper White even proclaims "Food
is LOVE" in large banners across his area seafood restaurants. These
people tend to be large and overweight (in America).

I have never liked American fast food or trans-fatty junk snack foods.
Those bad fats and bad oils leave such a pasty Crisco slimy taste in
my mouth. For fun the other day I tried a Twinkie from a coworker. It
left such a hydrogenated pasty "bad fat" sensation in my mouth that I
had to spit it out (the way one does at public wine tastings). There
was no way I was putting something so toxic into my body and arteries.
Don't bite it and chomp it and swallow it in one fast nonstop fluid
motion (the way most people tend to eat fast food), but let the chewed
Twinkie with its bad fats stay there in your mouth for a moment or
two, we're only talking a second or two. You'll right away pick up on
the bad fat sensations fouling your mouth (imagine what it's doing to
your arteries), and likely won't want it in your system or want to
crave another Twinkie in the near future again.

No, the main dilemma is those delightful well-prepared tasty European
foods that happen to be calorie-dense. I used to cook a lot of
celebratory meals for my extended family. To take one example, I make
a delicious mussels dish in a delectable cream sauce with shallots and
a hint of tarragon that was just heavenly. The mussel flavor in the
cream sauce was outstanding. Such a joy. On the side were cheddar
cheese pop-over style biscuits. No one ever wanted to leave a single
drop of that delicious sauce left over in their chowder bowls. They
would request serving after serving of more pop-overs four at a time
(delicious in their own right) to sop up all that delectable
flavor-melded sauce with. It was all "real" food, nothing artificial.
And yet, the only really nutritious part of that meal was the mussels
themselves. The cream sauce and pop-overs added nothing of nutritional
value other than a deceptively evil way to fool your diners into
eating a week's worth of fat and calories in one sitting without ever
even realizing it. I eventually had to stop cooking these meals
because I could see my family getting fatter and started feeling
incredibly guilty for being the one to have made such malevolent TASTY
dishes that deceived them and hurt their health.

So is a plate of bare steamed mussels a MUCH more nutritious dish?
Sure. Is it FAR less tasty than the French dish? Sure, you bet. I
still do get cravings for such a delightful dish every so often -
almost picturing the mussel and shallots playing together in that
delightful cream sauce. But then I also remember how bad all that fat
would make my stomach feel later that night, how pained and sick it
would leave me feeling during the 8 mile run the next morning. Instead
I focus on the physique and health losses if I do partake in such
short-lived 'fun'.

Why sabotage yourself by always trying to make food the most tasty it
can be? This invariably means taking a normally healthy nutritious
item and then ruining it (nutritionally) by adding lots of
taste-making fats and sugars to it.

It works for all foods, even non-haute-cuisine diner foods. The can of
tuna alone is very filling and very satisfying and very appetite
satiating. (And I now find tasty enough by itself to me, once I
converted from a "fat taste" palette to a "clean taste" palette). Once
you go for the "let's make it irresistibly tasty" style of cooking for
that tuna, by adding mayo to it and then also onions in combination to
make that mayo-tuna-onion taste pairing enticing, putting that fatty
mixture onto a buttered and toasted sub roll, amended with many tasty
looking slices of American cheese on top - sure, yummy, tasty, but now
it's six times the calories and completely unsatiating. I would feel
"hungry" (ie, entertainment hungry) enough after finishing both sub
halves that I'd WANT (not grant myself but DESIRE) another three or
four of those incredible TASTY treats. Ironically, I would end up
feeling completely deprived for having had one of these "taste
treats", versus feeling full and nourished and happy with my simple
can of tuna.

Works the same for broccoli covered in cheese sauce, cauliflower
covered in yummy butter crumb topping, roasted root vegetables covered
in olive oil and baked to result in a yummy salty-fatty caramelized
crust around those naturally sweet roasted veggies. Etc, etc. The
healthy nutritious heart of the dish is ruined by the "tasty" high-fat
and high-carb components.

Eat the low-fat low-carb whole foods and you can eat enormous volumes
of food (more than I could ever stomach in fact). But the critical
point is - it will satiate you, where you won't need or especially
WANT another second or third helping (even though on such low calorie
density you easily could). Eat incredibly tasty foods, and you have to
endure the high calorie density, and even worse, won't feel as
satisfied at all. Soon you'll be chasing after an ever richer foie
gras and an ever better high-end red wine followed by an ever richer
dessert and an ever richer dessert wine. That's where I was as a chef
and foodie. And after a while, the pleasure from it all disappears.
You need more fat and more sugars and heavier tastes to impress your
palette which had become used of fats and sugars in an never-ending
line of "food is fun, food is love" tasty treats. Now the CLEAN sweet
taste sensations of a simple Clementine is AMAZING. Its taste would
have been lost in the noise for me in years past.

So go ahead and try to eat a second can of tuna. If you're still
hungry eating one serving of cottage cheese (the local low-fat chive &
onions variety is great) out of the four serving tub, go ahead and eat
the entire tub. It's only 320 calories. Bet you won't feel like
another tub. It's the Pringles "Bet you can't eat just one" line in
reverse.

Food is fuel. Keep it simple, keep it clean. Food is NOT love.
American style.

vlcd_hell wrote:

Food is fuel. Keep it simple, keep it clean. Food is NOT love.
American style.

It's a mixture of nourishment AND pleasure, IMO. Our taste buds AND
foods that taste differently were not created for nuttin'. The problem
is many people "love" the wrong kinds of food, and in the wrong kinds
of quantities. I am one of those people who used to love the wrong
kinds of foods.

CM

vlcd_hell wrote:

I've spent years trying to undo my European upbringing where
high-quality well-prepared good food paired with beautiful wine is
seen as one of the most celebrated and life-giving and cherished joys
in one's daily life. Instead I've tried to get my head into the
American athletic view of "food is merely fuel." And as fuel, you eat
only the cleanest foods possible in the lowest amounts possible and
only when you work out. These people tend to be thin and trim.

you appear to have serious emotional problems. have you considered
seeking therapy?

The Queen of Cans and Jars wrote:
vlcd_hell wrote:


I've spent years trying to undo my European upbringing where
high-quality well-prepared good food paired with beautiful wine is
seen as one of the most celebrated and life-giving and cherished joys
in one's daily life. Instead I've tried to get my head into the
American athletic view of "food is merely fuel." And as fuel, you eat
only the cleanest foods possible in the lowest amounts possible and
only when you work out. These people tend to be thin and trim.

you appear to have serious emotional problems. have you considered
seeking therapy?

I keep saying that. He keeps avoiding the subject.

Hellish guy, I want to know more about your work and family life.
What's your job? Are you married? Who lives in your house with you?

Dally

Boy, you people love to attack other fellow members, huh? Envisioning
the very worst scenarios possible about them. I have to say other
forums have been much less attacking, much more helpful, and on the
whole come across as a much more optimistic and cheerful lot.

I was just offering my tips, for what has worked for me, as the
hardest loser I've seen in comparison to anyone else I've ever run
across. I've lost 70lbs. 175lb seems to be the ballpark average range
for men I hang with. Perhaps I have to get more realistic toward the
dream of being a 120lb hill climber again despite approaching middle
age and particularly wanting a cut muscled physique I didn't have in
racing days. There is some question about whether I should be in
athlete mode on my Tanita scale, which might suggest I'm actually 14%
BF instead of 26% in standard non-athletic mode. I know from
experimentation which regimens happen to work for me. Been doing this
annual "lose the off-season weight" dance for enough years of my life.

But heck, everyone is different. My input seems to be rocking the boat
and sharing my non-average experiences appears to not be appreciated
here. I'm not getting any useful non-dime-store-mantra info here, and
where I spend most of my free hours either working out or quality time
at home, I don't have the free time to devote to this seeming exercise
in futility. My time is better personally spent working out. I'll get
out of your hair where my CRAN approaches won't rock your high calorie
boats.

Not that you deserve to know, and sorry to disappoint your
schadenfreude fun toward fellow members, but I happen to be quite
happy and sound both mentally and emotionally and even physically. I
can out-run and out-bike all but the elite runners and cyclists (who
tend to be younger than me). I am healthy with no ailments. Married
and employed and looking forward to this romantic weekend. And now, on
the vanity front, the split routine and extra protein seems to be
making a difference in the looks department. I am now clearly
beginning to see a cut look start coming through, where even though
there is still some fat getting in the way of the musculature
presently, that cut build IS there underneath. That is very empowering
and reassuring to physically see. All I have to do is to continue this
split lifting routine, continue this protein-rich lower-calorie eating
routine, and let the natural annual increase in my running and cycling
workout durations and especially intensity (intervals!) this time of
year (as spring cycling season approaches) work off some of the
remaining fat covering the muscles. Feedback from friends in last
weekend's hot tub was "dude, you're not as fat as you think you are!"
Still have a ways to go, but perhaps I'm closer to 14% BF than 26% BF.
And happily, I still have several months to make good progress in.

BTW, I view this participation as writing, perhaps indeed
conversational writing, but not simple careless talk. Pardon me for
"talking too much" (aka writing).Your view may vary.

Ig, I posted my food logging several times now, yet you keep ignoring
it. No skin off my teeth.

Good luck y'all in your own personal physique transformations. Don't
let others derail you if your own personal regimen happens to work for
you despite ridicule from these people, you have to consider the
source, this isn't exactly a forum chock full of winning athletes
(where they even call each other FFID, some group). Really hope each
of you make your personal goals. See you out at the races in a few
months where I'll be chasing mine...

vlcd_hell wrote:

Not that you deserve to know, and sorry to disappoint your schadenfreude
fun toward fellow members, but I happen to be quite happy and sound both
mentally and emotionally and even physically.

anyone who thinks it's realistic or even desirable to get down to 3
percent body fat needs to have their head examined.

"vlcd_hell" wrote in message
om...
Boy, you people love to attack other fellow members, huh? Envisioning
the very worst scenarios possible about them. I have to say other
forums have been much less attacking, much more helpful, and on the
whole come across as a much more optimistic and cheerful lot.

I have yet to respond to any of your posts, until now. I've been reading
your saga since your first novella you posted. People around here have
responded thoughtfully, kindly, directly, and indirectly. You've ignored
requests for more detailed information, expecting the people here to read
your mind and know what you mean, or wade through pages of quasi-coherent
ramblings to figure out what you want.

I was just offering my tips, for what has worked for me, as the
hardest loser I've seen in comparison to anyone else I've ever run
across. I've lost 70lbs. 175lb seems to be the ballpark average range
for men I hang with. Perhaps I have to get more realistic toward the
dream of being a 120lb hill climber again despite approaching middle
age and particularly wanting a cut muscled physique I didn't have in
racing days. There is some question about whether I should be in
athlete mode on my Tanita scale, which might suggest I'm actually 14%
BF instead of 26% in standard non-athletic mode. I know from
experimentation which regimens happen to work for me. Been doing this
annual "lose the off-season weight" dance for enough years of my life.

So maybe instead you should adopt a sensible WOE to keep you more constant
throughout the year? Just a thought...

But heck, everyone is different. My input seems to be rocking the boat
and sharing my non-average experiences appears to not be appreciated
here. I'm not getting any useful non-dime-store-mantra info here, and
where I spend most of my free hours either working out or quality time
at home, I don't have the free time to devote to this seeming exercise
in futility. My time is better personally spent working out. I'll get
out of your hair where my CRAN approaches won't rock your high calorie
boats.

You've gotten tons of good advice, the best I've seen, including seeking
some serious therapy.

Not that you deserve to know, and sorry to disappoint your
schadenfreude fun toward fellow members, but I happen to be quite
happy and sound both mentally and emotionally and even physically.

And yet your posts don't reflect that in the least....

can out-run and out-bike all but the elite runners and cyclists (who
tend to be younger than me). I am healthy with no ailments. Married
and employed and looking forward to this romantic weekend. And now, on
the vanity front, the split routine and extra protein seems to be
making a difference in the looks department. I am now clearly
beginning to see a cut look start coming through, where even though
there is still some fat getting in the way of the musculature
presently, that cut build IS there underneath. That is very empowering
and reassuring to physically see. All I have to do is to continue this
split lifting routine, continue this protein-rich lower-calorie eating
routine, and let the natural annual increase in my running and cycling
workout durations and especially intensity (intervals!) this time of
year (as spring cycling season approaches) work off some of the
remaining fat covering the muscles. Feedback from friends in last
weekend's hot tub was "dude, you're not as fat as you think you are!"
Still have a ways to go, but perhaps I'm closer to 14% BF than 26% BF.
And happily, I still have several months to make good progress in.

And yet your posts don't reflect that in the least... (again)

Ig, I posted my food logging several times now, yet you keep ignoring
it. No skin off my teeth.

Where have you posted an actual food log?!? Some vague accounting of stuff
you might have eaten, no measurements, etc. You haven't posted anything of
the sort and for chrissake you now have me defending IG!!

Good luck y'all in your own personal physique transformations. Don't
let others derail you if your own personal regimen happens to work for
you despite ridicule from these people, you have to consider the
source, this isn't exactly a forum chock full of winning athletes
(where they even call each other FFID, some group). Really hope each
of you make your personal goals. See you out at the races in a few
months where I'll be chasing mine...

Hey dipwad...I haven't chimed in until now, but *I* was on a real VLCD, 800
cal/day for 10 months and lost 150 pounds. Get over yourself. Sorry we
didn't all group hug and sing kumbayah for you, but you got some decent and
sensible advice. The fact that you have a distorted body image and
unrealistic expectations is not a reflection on the treatment you've
received here.

Jenn

NOOOO say it isn't sooo!
Traitor!!

"JMA" wrote in

and for chrissake you now have me defending IG!!

JMA wrote:
"vlcd_hell" wrote:

Boy, you people love to attack other fellow members, huh? Envisioning
the very worst scenarios possible about them. I have to say other
forums have been much less attacking, much more helpful, and on the
whole come across as a much more optimistic and cheerful lot.

By all means, hang out in sci.med.nutrition. You seem to be a perfect
fit there. We value pragmatism, honestly, self-awareness... in other
things, different things than that group and all things you don't seem
to have as strengths.

I was just offering my tips, for what has worked for me, as the
hardest loser I've seen in comparison to anyone else I've ever run
across. I've lost 70lbs. 175lb seems to be the ballpark average range
for men I hang with.

I'm really, really confused about the whole weight gain/loss thing. He
says he can't lose weight, he says he lost 70 pounds, he says he looks
great to his friends, and yet complains about his obesity...

Perhaps I have to get more realistic toward the
dream of being a 120lb hill climber again despite approaching middle
age and particularly wanting a cut muscled physique I didn't have in
racing days.

And these goals just have nothing to do with any of that. 120 pounds?
3% body fat? And he complains that diets are doing their job for some
odd reason? That's not a diet, that's suicide.

There is some question about whether I should be in
athlete mode on my Tanita scale, which might suggest I'm actually 14%
BF instead of 26% in standard non-athletic mode.

This paragraph really blew my mind. The guy has been complaining about
hte 10 hours a week he spends in the gym and bragging about his speed
and athletic prowess and then mis-stating his BF% by nearly double? I
mean, c'mon, this is just sick. Hellish Guy, if you're reading this,
let me repeat:

YOU ARE SHOWING SEVERE SYMPTOMS OF EATING DISORDERS. Your relationship
with food is seriously ****ed up. Your body perception and goals for
your body are not reasonable or particularly sane. Your regimen-based
diet (including counting out almonds) and your stupid training routine
are all signs of mental illness. YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP WITH THIS!

I know from
experimentation which regimens happen to work for me. Been doing this
annual "lose the off-season weight" dance for enough years of my life.

If you're talking about five or ten pounds of seasonal weight gain that
falls off when you get back into training then there's no problem. But
it sounds like you're talking about 70 pounds and you have to go through
hell to re-lose it each year. This is just sick.

I am NOT trying to be dismissive, I'm trying to give you some
perspective that you just don't have. Can you hear me?

So maybe instead you should adopt a sensible WOE to keep you more constant
throughout the year? Just a thought...

Jenn, it's a sane, rational thought. He's not functioning at that level.

But heck, everyone is different. My input seems to be rocking the boat
and sharing my non-average experiences appears to not be appreciated
here.

We understand VLCD. We understand fat loss. We understand training for
fat loss. We understand training goals that are outside fat loss. It's
YOU that isn't understanding where you fit in the spectrum of behaviors.

I'm not getting any useful non-dime-store-mantra info here, and
where I spend most of my free hours either working out or quality time
at home, I don't have the free time to devote to this seeming exercise
in futility.

Fine. You asked for help, we offer help, you say we're not helpful,
we're at a standstill. Have a nice life.

My time is better personally spent working out. I'll get
out of your hair where my CRAN approaches won't rock your high calorie
boats.

I'm not sure what CRAN is, and I'm really not sure that your time is
better spent working out [so much], but I *am* sure that we don't have
high calorie boats. I'm around 1500-1600 right now. I've lost 8.5
pounds in the past 5.5 weeks and it all appears to have been from fat.

In fact, like several others here, I've completely transformed my body
from one that couldn't lose weight to one that burns fat. It wasn't
from eating a "high calorie" diet. It wasn't from eating VLCD, either.
Turns out there is a middle road.

Not that you deserve to know, and sorry to disappoint your
schadenfreude fun toward fellow members, but I happen to be quite
happy and sound both mentally and emotionally and even physically.

And yet your posts don't reflect that in the least....

No, they really don't. They exhibit the mental anguish of an
well-educated man in deep denial with excessive amounts of
rationalizations of poor choices.

I suppose you think I'm just being mean for the fun of it. That's not
my motivation. My motivation is the hope that something you read will
spark a teensy bit of self-awareness that you've got a problem and
you'll seek help [outside of usenet] with your eating disorder. It
sounds like an OCD to me but I'm not a psychiatrist.

Feedback from friends in last
weekend's hot tub was "dude, you're not as fat as you think you are!"

Now reflect on this for a moment. Did they say it in a fearful way,
trying not to hurt your feelings, but trying to tell you that you've got
a body dysmorphia thing going on? You keep saying you're fat, you claim
a 26% body fat, the reality is you're closer to 12% (if you're seeing
definition). This is the hallmark of anorexia: you think you're fat
when you aren't. Could this describe you? If it does, what do you want
to do about it? If you're sure it doesn't, then would it at least be
useful to go to a psychiatrist to check it out just in case your denial
is part of the illness?

Ig, I posted my food logging several times now, yet you keep ignoring
it. No skin off my teeth.

I never saw it, either. It's like we're trying to help you and you turn
down all help and then get mad at us for not being helpful.

I want to see your www.fitday.com log for a week, as well as your front,
side and back pictures. You can start a journal at www.bfltracker.com
to show before and after pictures as well as measurements. I've got one
there, for example.

Where have you posted an actual food log?!? Some vague accounting of stuff
you might have eaten, no measurements, etc. You haven't posted anything of
the sort and for chrissake you now have me defending IG!!

I know, that really urks me, too. But Ig is right - the guy is blowing
smoke and Ig is calling him on it.

Good luck y'all in your own personal physique transformations. Don't
let others derail you if your own personal regimen happens to work for
you despite ridicule from these people

Oh, sorry, did you SAY your regimen was working for you? You're in
hell, your diet isn't working, you aren't making strength gains, your
obsession about food is making your life miserable, you've got a HUGE
eating disorder smack in the middle of everything and now you say it
WORKS for you?

you have to consider the
source, this isn't exactly a forum chock full of winning athletes

You don't know us very well, do you? No, I'd say we mostly aren't
"winning" athletes, so we're not the right place to go to get info on
how to win the Tour de France. But Chris just won her age class in a
Powerlifting competition and many, many of us compete in sports.

But what we're REALLY winning at is making significant transformations
in our lifestyles that let us reach healthy body fat perecentages and
achieve an active lifestyle.

(where they even call each other FFID, some group).

Most people here aren't FFID. You are, though, mostly because of your
massive DENIAL thing.

I particularly liked the deft way you denigrated us as not having useful
information because we haven't won bike races. That was one of your
little mental tricks for rationalizing not listening to us.

Hey dipwad...I haven't chimed in until now, but *I* was on a real VLCD, 800
cal/day for 10 months and lost 150 pounds. Get over yourself. Sorry we
didn't all group hug and sing kumbayah for you, but you got some decent and
sensible advice. The fact that you have a distorted body image and
unrealistic expectations is not a reflection on the treatment you've
received here.

I totally agree, Jenn, but you've got to admit that he isn't fitting in
here, so maybe it's a good idea for him to go hang out with sickies and
crazies who think he's normal.

Dally
244/181.5/170-ish

But wait !! I loved reading you . I like what you said about the way we
should eat plain foods . Simple but plain is a good thing , in fact I
KNOW I would be skinny if I ate YOUR WAY

glo