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Uncovering the Atkins diet secret



 
 
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  #12  
Old January 23rd, 2004, 09:07 PM
tcomeau
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Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

SadMu_n wrote in message . ..
On 22 Jan 2004 18:02:47 -0800, (tcomeau) wrote:

Last I heard was that fat was what caused satiation. And carbs that
caused high levels of insulin, which causes hunger. The only thing
complicating this simple concept is peoples unreasonable adherence to
the calories fallacy. The calories math doesn't, hasn't and will never
be a valid predictor of weight loss or gain in humans.


lol

tunderbar rewrites the Laws of Thermodynamics.

Hey, I believe him, don't you?

lol

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.


It has nothing to do with the Laws of Thermo. They apply to a closed
system. The human body is not a closed system.

TC
  #13  
Old January 23rd, 2004, 09:10 PM
tcomeau
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Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

Largest Mu_n wrote in message . ..
On 22 Jan 2004 07:31:39 -0800, (tcomeau) wrote:

Maybe the lesson to be learned is that calories really have little
bearing when it comes to weight gain or loss in humans.


Eat 10,000 a day and call me when you can no longer see your feet.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000620.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.


sigh.... you poor idiot....

Extremes do not prove or disprove anything other than the extreme.

TC
  #14  
Old January 24th, 2004, 09:27 AM
[email protected]
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Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

On 23 Jan 2004 12:10:12 -0800, (tcomeau) posted:

Largest Mu_n wrote in message . ..
On 22 Jan 2004 07:31:39 -0800,
(tcomeau) wrote:

Maybe the lesson to be learned is that calories really have little
bearing when it comes to weight gain or loss in humans.


Eat 10,000 a day and call me when you can no longer see your feet.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000620.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.


sigh.... you poor idiot....

Extremes do not prove or disprove anything other than the extreme.



So would you please point out any metabolic lab study that shows that
a hypercaloric diet can result in fat storage loss as you keep
claiming?

Moosh
  #15  
Old January 24th, 2004, 09:32 AM
[email protected]
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Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

On 23 Jan 2004 12:07:49 -0800, (tcomeau) posted:

SadMu_n wrote in message . ..
On 22 Jan 2004 18:02:47 -0800,
(tcomeau) wrote:

Last I heard was that fat was what caused satiation. And carbs that
caused high levels of insulin, which causes hunger. The only thing
complicating this simple concept is peoples unreasonable adherence to
the calories fallacy. The calories math doesn't, hasn't and will never
be a valid predictor of weight loss or gain in humans.


lol

tunderbar rewrites the Laws of Thermodynamics.

Hey, I believe him, don't you?

lol

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040122.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.


It has nothing to do with the Laws of Thermo. They apply to a closed
system. The human body is not a closed system.


Where does it state that the "conservation of energy principle"
applies only to a closed system?

And what do you understand by a closed system?
Not what thermodynamics understands.
The human body can be studied as a closed system. It depends what you
measure and how rigorously. Bathroom scales don't cut it, sorry.

Moosh
  #16  
Old January 24th, 2004, 09:50 AM
Moosh:)
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Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

On 22 Jan 2004 18:02:47 -0800, (tcomeau) posted:

"George W. Cherry" wrote in message news:[email protected]_s53...

snip


Maybe the lesson to be learned is that calories really have little
bearing when it comes to weight gain or loss in humans.

TC


Huh??? Maybe you missed this quote

"The reason they lost more weight was because they consumed fewer
calories, despite the fact they had free access to all the food they
wanted."



The reason that they *claim* and *assume* *apparently* caused the
weight loss was the *apparent* restriction of calories. They've
assumed this for generations and in spite of the ease of eating a
low-calorie diet and the availability of a huge variety of low-calorie
foods the population, including low-calorie dieters, are still getting
fat. Of course, with the exception of low-carb dieters.


So where is this metabolic lab study that shows that a hypercaloric
diet can result in fat storage loss, as you claim?

in the above. The thesis advanced above is that Atkins'
dieters eat fewer calories because the large amount of
protein they ingest suppresses their appetite. So it's not
the fat. "It's the protein, stupid!" : o ) In case you didn't
know, protein and carbohydrates both have 4 calories
per gram, but fat has 9 calories per gram. Protein causes
a stable and more enduring rise in glucose than carbs,
and so protein reduces your hunger more reliably, con-
sistently, and longer than carbs.

George ("It's the protein, stupid!")


Last I heard was that fat was what caused satiation.


When was that? 1950?
Try protein, glucose in the blood, and stomach distension. Fat can
help maintain stomach distension a bit longer. Its effect is only
secondary

And carbs that
caused high levels of insulin, which causes hunger.


Nope, unless you have metabolic disorder (syndrome X), of course

The only thing
complicating this simple concept is peoples unreasonable adherence to
the calories fallacy. The calories math doesn't, hasn't and will never
be a valid predictor of weight loss or gain in humans.


So show us the study. You've claimed this nonsense for years with not
a shred of evidence. Make with the evidence please. Metabolic lab
study showing hypercaloric diet results in fat storage loss.

Moosh
  #17  
Old January 24th, 2004, 09:54 AM
Moosh:)
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Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

On 22 Jan 2004 07:31:39 -0800, (tcomeau) posted:

(Diarmid Logan) wrote in message . com...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3416637.stm

Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

The controversial and popular Atkins diet works for reasons that Dr
Atkins may not have fully understood, the BBC 2 programme Horizon has
discovered.

Through a series of scientific experiments the programme shows that
although the diet allows people all the fat and protein they want,
they actually eat as few calories as people on low fat diets.

And the reason for this, according to recent research is because the
quantity of protein the regime encourages, acts like an appetite
suppressant.

The meat, fish and eggs in the Atkins diet control hunger and stop
people eating their usual quantity of calories.

The theory behind Dr Atkins' diet is that by cutting down on starchy
foods like potatoes, bread and pasta and eating mainly protein and
fats like meat, eggs and cheese you can eat as much as you want and
still lose weight.

Dr Atkins even said there was no need to worry about calories.

The idea that people could gorge on as many calories as they desire
and still lose the pounds brought Dr Atkins much criticism and even
prompted some scientists to call his diet "scientific heresy".

Horizon teamed up with the University of Kansas and commissioned a
scientific investigation to test Dr Atkins' most controversial theory.

This states that on his diet you actually burn more calories than
usual - allowing you to lose more weight.

Dr Atkins had two ideas about where the extra calories were going.
Firstly, he believed you burn more calories when your body uses fats
and proteins as fuel.

If this is true, says Dr Mary Vernon, of the Atkins Physician Council,
it makes exercise less important than usual.

"You wouldn't have to increase your exercise at all because your body
would be working harder, so that you could literally sit in your
armchair and lose weight."

Dr Atkins also believed that on his diet you lose unused calories by
peeing them away, as part of a process known as ketosis, which happens
when you stop eating starchy foods and sugar.

In Horizon's investigation identical twins were put on different
diets, one on the Atkins diet and one on a conventional low fat diet.
Each was fed identical amounts of calories for two weeks.

The twins were then locked inside a sealed chamber so that Professor
Joseph Donnelly could calculate how quickly their bodies were burning
calories.

Over 24 hours the twin on the Atkins diet did lose more calories than
the twin on low fat, but only 22.

Professor Donnelly even checked the twins' urine for calories and
found that the Atkins dieter had lost less than a single calorie more
than his brother on low fat.

Donnelly concluded that: "the differences were too small to suggest
there's anything significant going on".

Even though this research is at an early stage, there is little
evidence for Dr Atkins' wasted calorie theories.

Horizon examines other studies that reveal the real reason scientists
believe the Atkins diet is effective.

New results from research conducted on the popular BBC series 'Diet
Trials' offer the first clue.

The study examined the Atkins diet and three low fat, low calorie
diets.

All four diets worked, but Dr Joe Millward at the University of Surrey
who headed up the research, discovered the secret to why Atkins
dieters were losing weight.

"The Atkins dieters were eating less calories, in exactly the same way
as those going to the slimming clubs on their low fat diets."

Without apparently trying, people on the Atkins diet were eating less
than they would normally.

Scientists are now more interested than ever in what makes us eat
less. They have concluded that there is something about the Atkins
diet that controls hunger.

Research has shown that fat is the least filling food. But new work in
Denmark is showing exactly what kinds of food may control hunger.

Professor Arne Astrup, from the Royal Veterinary & Agricultural
University in Copenhagen, built a supermarket for a special study to
find the secret of appetite control.

Professor Astrup's study focused on being able to eat as much as you
want.

He put one group of shoppers on a high protein diet and one on a high
carbohydrate diet.

He was surprised to find that the people eating more protein lost
significantly more weight.

"The reason they lost more weight was because they consumed fewer
calories, despite the fact they had free access to all the food they
wanted."

Increasing the amount of meat, fish and eggs in the diet may not only
be the answer to our hunger pangs, but the secret to how the Atkins
diet works.

Perhaps without realising it, Dr Atkins stumbled across the secret of
appetite control, by discovering a high protein diet.

The programme also investigates whether or not the Atkins diet is
dangerous.

With no long term studies on the diet, any possible health risks of
the diet are, so far, unproven.

Horizon: The Atkins Diet will be shown Thursday January 22nd at 9pm on
BBC2.


Maybe the lesson to be learned is that calories really have little
bearing when it comes to weight gain or loss in humans.



You are probably right.

So please tell us of any metabolic lab study that shows that a
hypercaloric diet can ever result in fat storage loss.

Moosh
  #19  
Old January 24th, 2004, 02:42 PM
Moosh:)
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Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:58:02 GMT, posted:

"Moosh" writes:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:07:13 GMT,
posted:
writes:
On 23 Jan 2004 12:07:49 -0800,
(tcomeau) posted:

It has nothing to do with the Laws of Thermo. They apply to a
closed system. The human body is not a closed system.

Where does it state that the "conservation of energy principle"
applies only to a closed system?

In any text that covers thermodynamics. However, some conclusions
can be drawn anyway; the previous poster is incorrect.


Energy is conserved whatever. Over what arbitrary boundaries energy
transfers are measured, determines what a "closed system" is.


Never said otherwise.


OK, I thought you said conservation of energy only occurred in a
"closed system" (whatever that arbitrary system means exactly).

However, a locked room containing food for a month and a chemical
toilet IS a closed system.


Exactly! Draw the boundaries and measure the energy transfers.


Yup.

The human body can be studied as a closed system. It depends what you
measure and how rigorously.

Right.


I've been waiting many months for TC to point out ANY metabolic lab
study to show that a hypercaloric diet can result in fat storage
loss. No show, but he still persists.


I'm not sure what you mean by "hypercaloric". Nobody has ever disputed
that a normal person eating 5000 cal/day will not lose weight. What is
claimed, and some of us have measured in practice, is that changing
the source of calories WITHOUT changing the number of calories has
changed us from gaining or maintaining to losing.


So show us the metabolic lab studies to back this assetion up.
"Hypercaloric" means taking more calories into the body than are
expended by that same body. There are two other self-explanatory terms
that go with this; "Eucaloric", and "hypocaloric".

Here the SECOND law of thermodynamics is relevant: no conversion is
100% efficient. Therefore, an easy corollary states that two different
conversion methods are a priori unlikely to exhibit the same efficiency.


The general principle of conservation of energy means that a calorie
can neither be created nor destroyed. All must be accounted for.
Efficiency is irrelevant. All calories into this system (the human
body) must exactly equal all calories out of this system. If they
don't, then the measurements are wrong, until you can get the Nobel
Prize for changing Faraday's Laws

I am unaware of any study measuring the exact conversion efficiency of
the conversion process for various fats and simple or complex carbs.


Conversion to what? All chemical reaction pathways have been studied
rigorously. There are reference books that can tell you the exact
thermal equations for every known chemical reaction.

Moosh
  #20  
Old January 24th, 2004, 07:37 PM
tcomeau
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Default Uncovering the Atkins diet secret

"Moosh" wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:07:13 GMT, posted:

writes:
On 23 Jan 2004 12:07:49 -0800,
(tcomeau) posted:

It has nothing to do with the Laws of Thermo. They apply to a
closed system. The human body is not a closed system.

Where does it state that the "conservation of energy principle"
applies only to a closed system?


In any text that covers thermodynamics. However, some conclusions can
be drawn anyway; the previous poster is incorrect.


Energy is conserved whatever. Over what arbitrary boundaries energy
transfers are measured, determines what a "closed system" is.

And what do you understand by a closed system?


A closed system is any system which has no energy sources or
sinks. The body is not "closed" because food provides an external
source of energy, and the toilet provides an external sink (!).

However, a locked room containing food for a month and a chemical
toilet IS a closed system.


Exactly!
Draw the boundaries and measure the energy transfers.

The human body can be studied as a closed system. It depends what you
measure and how rigorously.


Right.


I've been waiting many months for TC to point out ANY metabolic lab
study to show that a hypercaloric diet can result in fat storage loss.
No show, but he still persists.

Moosh


And I've been waiting just as long for you to show us the one seminal
metabolic lab study, or any metabolic lab study that conclusively
proves otherwise. I'm still waiting. I may not have the study to
disprove the calorie fallacy, but you do not have the study or studies
that proved it in the first place. You are placing your trust in a
theory that has never been proven scientifically, it has only been
assumed.

TC
 




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