An interesting observation.

Not a criticism or an attack on anyone: just some observations that may
have cultural implications...

When I read this group I see a lot of people trying to help each other
and a lot of good advice, but I also see an awful lot of people who eat
in chain restaurants, looking for lower point ways of navigating their
menus. This is good, in a way, but it puzzles me. For me eating out is
a treat that happens occasionally. I save points for it, and plan
ahead. I do try to take the healthy options, asking for boiled rather
than roast potatoes or chips/fries (I prefer them anyway so that's no
hardship), and just pointing the rest carefully. I don't eat puddings
often, so the occasional treat is nice, and again, I budget points fr
that or a starter. I can no longer manage both unless pudding is
something like a home made berry sorbet. I avoid chain restaurants like
the plague, much preferring local pubs with good chefs who make proper food.

Portion size also puzzles me... Are portions REALLY so large that
taking half home to eat later is expected? Here, portions can be
generous, but are rarely THAT big, and 'doggy-bagging' the remains is
only valid if the dog is there to back your claims! Re-heated
restaurant food is not the most attractive option...

I also see people hunting out the sweet snacks and trying to find lower
point alternatives. I see this here as well. I save that sort of thing
for special occasions (making birthday cake for my son, for example),
rather than looking for a way to have them every day. I'm no saint -
far from it - but that stuff is SO much more expensive than raw veggies
and fresh fruit. I'm lucky that I LIKE lots of vegetables and fruit,
and I used to eat cookies but the packet load, but not now.

I suppose being ill helped a lot there as well: you tend to go off
things that put you in a lot of pain! But even now, where once 2 or 3
slices of cake was normal, one small one does just fine.

What is it with the snacks? Why eat them at all? Why not just eat more
'proper' food and forget the chips, the dips, the pretzel thingies, and
the other stuff? Are they really a treat if you have them every day?
For me my treat is the mug of low fat hot chocolate and the WW cake I
get at my meeting every week, the occasional glass of wine with Sunday
Dinner, an occasional meal out or glass of beer, not something I have
every single day to fill in the corners. If I need corners filled, I
head for bread (if I have the points) or zero point soup, or raw veggies
and fruit.

For me a BIIIG treat is to go to the fabric store, where I can splurge
on delicious goodies with no calories at all, that keep me occupied away
from the danger zone in the kitchen!

I *do* have treats (but not every day), I *do* have lapses, I *do* have
greedy days when I go over points, but I don't fill the cupboard with
expensive low point snacky things as an alternative to the food that
made me ill and fat. Is it the pain thing with me? Or is it really a
cultural thing?
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

"Kate Dicey" wrote in message
...
Not a criticism or an attack on anyone: just some observations that may
have cultural implications...

When I read this group I see a lot of people trying to help each other
and a lot of good advice, but I also see an awful lot of people who eat
in chain restaurants, looking for lower point ways of navigating their
menus. This is good, in a way, but it puzzles me. For me eating out is
a treat that happens occasionally. I save points for it, and plan
ahead. I do try to take the healthy options, asking for boiled rather
than roast potatoes or chips/fries (I prefer them anyway so that's no
hardship), and just pointing the rest carefully. I don't eat puddings
often, so the occasional treat is nice, and again, I budget points fr
that or a starter. I can no longer manage both unless pudding is
something like a home made berry sorbet. I avoid chain restaurants like
the plague, much preferring local pubs with good chefs who make proper
food.

I do prefer local pubs - I'm a CAMRA member - finding good for & beer places
is kind of a vocation for me.... Even if there's nowt WW friendly, there's
nearly always the jacket potato option, or a salad/ploughmans type thing,
which I can adapt. I do eat puds - but I save points for them. Dinner out
is generally only a two course affair too though - purely cos I can't
usually find 3 things in a row that add up to the right amount! I love it
in France where you can ALWAYS have sorbet for pudding

Portion size also puzzles me... Are portions REALLY so large that
taking half home to eat later is expected? Here, portions can be
generous, but are rarely THAT big, and 'doggy-bagging' the remains is
only valid if the dog is there to back your claims! Re-heated
restaurant food is not the most attractive option...

I've only been to the 'States once - about 10 years ago - but yes - the
portion sizes really were THAT big! We're talking at least twice what you'd
get here.....hence the ability to split it in two I suppose!

I also see people hunting out the sweet snacks and trying to find lower
point alternatives. I see this here as well. I save that sort of thing
for special occasions (making birthday cake for my son, for example),
rather than looking for a way to have them every day. I'm no saint -
far from it - but that stuff is SO much more expensive than raw veggies
and fresh fruit. I'm lucky that I LIKE lots of vegetables and fruit,
and I used to eat cookies but the packet load, but not now.

YMMV. Depends on whether or not you have a sweet tooth. I like to have
something sweet every day - I have to have pudding after tea too. Lots of
caramel rice cakes, fruit, and yoghurt sort me out. I just fit it all in
within the WW plan.

I suppose being ill helped a lot there as well: you tend to go off
things that put you in a lot of pain! But even now, where once 2 or 3
slices of cake was normal, one small one does just fine.

Mostly I'm like you here, but I do have days when the trigger goes, and I
could eat for my country......my "nail it down or I'll eat it" days. I end
up eating a whole heap of veggies to try and squash it....which usually
leads to indigestion - but hey, at least it wasn't cookies... I am
generally happy to just have a taste of something though - but I do have to
taste everything if we're all eating out, just to reassure myself I'm not
missing anything!

What is it with the snacks? Why eat them at all? Why not just eat more
'proper' food and forget the chips, the dips, the pretzel thingies, and
the other stuff? Are they really a treat if you have them every day?
For me my treat is the mug of low fat hot chocolate and the WW cake I
get at my meeting every week, the occasional glass of wine with Sunday
Dinner, an occasional meal out or glass of beer, not something I have
every single day to fill in the corners. If I need corners filled, I
head for bread (if I have the points) or zero point soup, or raw veggies
and fruit.

Yep - I need a treat every day. A low point one, obviously. Otherwise I'd
feel like I was denying myself stuff, and then want them more.

For me a BIIIG treat is to go to the fabric store, where I can splurge
on delicious goodies with no calories at all, that keep me occupied away
from the danger zone in the kitchen!

Ah, well, if I was blessed with your sewing talents.........

I *do* have treats (but not every day), I *do* have lapses, I *do* have
greedy days when I go over points, but I don't fill the cupboard with
expensive low point snacky things as an alternative to the food that
made me ill and fat. Is it the pain thing with me? Or is it really a
cultural thing?

Some culture, some not, methinks.

--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons




--
krys

UK 157/126.2/126
Started March 1st 2001
GOAL August 16th 2001 and July 22nd 2004
....undoing the holiday damage...

I think at least part of it is cultural and I think another part is
preference, and some is health related, for me beer = severe allergic
reaction, wine= a migraine at least half the time. I am the type of person
who got fat not by eating too much "junk" like cookies but by eating fat on
everything and in too big of portions. Our portions in restaurants are
actually huge. I recently got the whole wheat pasta from Olive Garden, It
was a dollar cheaper to get all you can eat and I was doing core, I had one
bowl of minestrone soup, 2 pts, then I had a first serving of pasta, it was
a cup and a half, and DH said it was smaller than the regular one serving
that he was sure was at least two cups. Now to chain restaurants, Here in
the U.S. there are less and less "mom and pop" places, I would never go into
a tavern to eat because most of the food is greasy and suspect at best.
Don't get me wrong, I will eat at a place that is a restaurant that serves
adult beverages just not an adult beverage place that has food, when these
are taken out of the mix there are few independents left. now to snacks. I
am not a sweet eater by nature, I have no difficulty eating 1 Hershey's
kiss, rarely eat salty chip type things. When we make the regular box cake
most is thrown away because we both forgot we made it and it is hiding in
the cover. I think this is a very valid topic and bears looking at, Lee,
who brought home ten ounces of a "small" t-bone the other day
Kate Dicey wrote in message
...
Not a criticism or an attack on anyone: just some observations that may
have cultural implications...

When I read this group I see a lot of people trying to help each other
and a lot of good advice, but I also see an awful lot of people who eat
in chain restaurants, looking for lower point ways of navigating their
menus. This is good, in a way, but it puzzles me. For me eating out is
a treat that happens occasionally. I save points for it, and plan
ahead. I do try to take the healthy options, asking for boiled rather
than roast potatoes or chips/fries (I prefer them anyway so that's no
hardship), and just pointing the rest carefully. I don't eat puddings
often, so the occasional treat is nice, and again, I budget points fr
that or a starter. I can no longer manage both unless pudding is
something like a home made berry sorbet. I avoid chain restaurants like
the plague, much preferring local pubs with good chefs who make proper
food.

Portion size also puzzles me... Are portions REALLY so large that
taking half home to eat later is expected? Here, portions can be
generous, but are rarely THAT big, and 'doggy-bagging' the remains is
only valid if the dog is there to back your claims! Re-heated
restaurant food is not the most attractive option...

I also see people hunting out the sweet snacks and trying to find lower
point alternatives. I see this here as well. I save that sort of thing
for special occasions (making birthday cake for my son, for example),
rather than looking for a way to have them every day. I'm no saint -
far from it - but that stuff is SO much more expensive than raw veggies
and fresh fruit. I'm lucky that I LIKE lots of vegetables and fruit,
and I used to eat cookies but the packet load, but not now.

I suppose being ill helped a lot there as well: you tend to go off
things that put you in a lot of pain! But even now, where once 2 or 3
slices of cake was normal, one small one does just fine.

What is it with the snacks? Why eat them at all? Why not just eat more
'proper' food and forget the chips, the dips, the pretzel thingies, and
the other stuff? Are they really a treat if you have them every day?
For me my treat is the mug of low fat hot chocolate and the WW cake I
get at my meeting every week, the occasional glass of wine with Sunday
Dinner, an occasional meal out or glass of beer, not something I have
every single day to fill in the corners. If I need corners filled, I
head for bread (if I have the points) or zero point soup, or raw veggies
and fruit.

For me a BIIIG treat is to go to the fabric store, where I can splurge
on delicious goodies with no calories at all, that keep me occupied away
from the danger zone in the kitchen!

I *do* have treats (but not every day), I *do* have lapses, I *do* have
greedy days when I go over points, but I don't fill the cupboard with
expensive low point snacky things as an alternative to the food that
made me ill and fat. Is it the pain thing with me? Or is it really a
cultural thing?
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

"Kate Dicey" wrote in message
...
Not a criticism or an attack on anyone: just some observations that may
have cultural implications...

When I read this group I see a lot of people trying to help each other
and a lot of good advice, but I also see an awful lot of people who eat
in chain restaurants, looking for lower point ways of navigating their
menus. This is good, in a way, but it puzzles me. For me eating out is
a treat that happens occasionally. I save points for it, and plan
ahead. I do try to take the healthy options, asking for boiled rather
than roast potatoes or chips/fries (I prefer them anyway so that's no
hardship), and just pointing the rest carefully. I don't eat puddings
often, so the occasional treat is nice, and again, I budget points fr
that or a starter. I can no longer manage both unless pudding is
something like a home made berry sorbet. I avoid chain restaurants like
the plague, much preferring local pubs with good chefs who make proper
food.

For some, eating out a lot is part of their lifestyle. And it is a habit
that is hard to break. If you are on the Flex plan here then eating at fast
food joints will work fine. Those of us on the Core plan are finding it a
little harder to find core foods while eating out. Of course we've cut out
almost all fast food restaurant visits since I joined WW 18 months ago. It
was a major contributer to my extra 100 pounds so it naturally needed to be
eliminated if I was to be sucessful in losing weight.

Portion size also puzzles me... Are portions REALLY so large that
taking half home to eat later is expected? Here, portions can be
generous, but are rarely THAT big, and 'doggy-bagging' the remains is
only valid if the dog is there to back your claims! Re-heated
restaurant food is not the most attractive option...

This must be an American thing. Many (most?) restaurant portions are way to
big. When I am out with mom we typically will share a meal because they are
too big. If we don't share then we will bring our food home for lunch the
next day. I frequently will cut my meal in half BEFORE I start eating
because it is too big. Steaks are typically 10 oz or more, salads are huge,
etc.

I also see people hunting out the sweet snacks and trying to find lower
point alternatives. I see this here as well. I save that sort of thing
for special occasions (making birthday cake for my son, for example),
rather than looking for a way to have them every day. I'm no saint -
far from it - but that stuff is SO much more expensive than raw veggies
and fresh fruit. I'm lucky that I LIKE lots of vegetables and fruit,
and I used to eat cookies but the packet load, but not now.

I am guilty of trying to find low point snacks. That's one of the reasons
that I like the new core program. I have elimnated all of the low point
snacks like chips and pria bars. I still have my non fat ice cream several
nights a week from the local ice cream store as that has become a family
treat. Its one way of getting DH away from the computer and pay a little bit
of attention to the whole family.

I suppose being ill helped a lot there as well: you tend to go off
things that put you in a lot of pain! But even now, where once 2 or 3
slices of cake was normal, one small one does just fine.

What is it with the snacks? Why eat them at all? Why not just eat more
'proper' food and forget the chips, the dips, the pretzel thingies, and
the other stuff? Are they really a treat if you have them every day?

For me they were a way of using up my points at the end of the day that did
not require much work or thought. Just grab and eat. Mindless TV watching
eating. Core has taught me to each more "proper" foods so I don't have room
for the junk nor is it allowed on the plan without using your weekly 35 flex
points. I'd rather use those points on my 2 point non-fat ice cream and the
occasional dinner out these days.

For me my treat is the mug of low fat hot chocolate and the WW cake I
get at my meeting every week, the occasional glass of wine with Sunday
Dinner, an occasional meal out or glass of beer, not something I have
every single day to fill in the corners. If I need corners filled, I
head for bread (if I have the points) or zero point soup, or raw veggies
and fruit.

You have learned what works best for you. It probably did not happen over
night either. It takes a high level of commitment too to give up the snacks
and junk food in favor of healthy foods. I think those that can make this
commitment will be very successful in their weight loss efforts. I am
viewing this process as a way of life requiring permenant changes to make it
work. It took me quite some time to reach that level of understanding.

For me a BIIIG treat is to go to the fabric store, where I can splurge
on delicious goodies with no calories at all, that keep me occupied away
from the danger zone in the kitchen!

I *do* have treats (but not every day), I *do* have lapses, I *do* have
greedy days when I go over points, but I don't fill the cupboard with
expensive low point snacky things as an alternative to the food that
made me ill and fat. Is it the pain thing with me? Or is it really a
cultural thing?

I don't think it is a cultural thing. Your illness made you rethink what you
were eating. You figured out what type of lifestyle works for you.

"Kate Dicey" wrote:

What is it with the snacks? Why eat them at all? Why not just eat more
'proper' food and forget the chips, the dips, the pretzel thingies, and
the other stuff? Are they really a treat if you have them every day?
For me my treat is the mug of low fat hot chocolate and the WW cake I
get at my meeting every week, the occasional glass of wine with Sunday
Dinner, an occasional meal out or glass of beer, not something I have
every single day to fill in the corners. If I need corners filled, I
head for bread (if I have the points) or zero point soup, or raw veggies
and fruit.

Understandable but often times I get VERY hungry between meals. Our WW
leader told us we should be eating every 2 hours. This is to prevent you
from being RAVENOUS at dinner/lunch etc and then having trouble controlling
yourself. The point of the program is not to be hungry. It's great that you
don't need snacks much but some people do. Sometimes when I'm NOT hungry I
have a snack anyway because I agree with the leader's logic. If they have
the points for it...why not? It's not hurting anyone. You get to spend more
points on your big meals than they do. It evens out. I really haven't seen
people talking about eating chips and dips for snacks here and if they do
that- great. They are the ones who will be using up the points. Every snack
I have isn't a "treat" unless you consider light pear cups a treat or WW
snack bars, etc. I *do* need a treat every day. It keeps me going. I get
that treat but I save up for it. It's not like my treats are WHOLE pints of
ice cream. I will have a SkinnyCow sandwich or a whole fruit popsicle. I
understand you concerns but in the same way I don't really understand why it
matters. THEY are the ones using up their points on things...it's THEIR
concern. If they throw out points on snacks and treats- GOOD FOR THEM! I
don't think we should be denying ourselves all of these things because we
are on WW. I think the founders would be appalled if they heard we were
doing that! You have to understand that everyone is very different. You
don't need snacks, others do. You don't need treats, others do. That doesn't
mean anyone is less of a WW member. Does that make sense?

HTH,
-Kara.

"Kara H" wrote in message
...

I really haven't seen
people talking about eating chips and dips for snacks here and if they do
that- great. They are the ones who will be using up the points.

I often will have an ounce (or even two) of baked tortilla chips and salsa.
Every once in a while I'll mix the salsa with a tablespoon or two of nonfat
sour cream.


Every snack
I have isn't a "treat" unless you consider light pear cups a treat or WW
snack bars, etc. I *do* need a treat every day. It keeps me going. I get
that treat but I save up for it. It's not like my treats are WHOLE pints
of
ice cream. I will have a SkinnyCow sandwich or a whole fruit popsicle.

I'm not big on milk, so I budget the points for a low fat cookie to go with
my bedtime milk. The bedtime snack is important to me, in part because I
take a medication at bedtime that needs to be taken with food. But
honestly, even without the med I'd still want something at bedtime. And
something sweet -- the cookie and the milk to which I always add a splash of
sugar free syrup is a nice way to end the day.

I
understand you concerns but in the same way I don't really understand why
it
matters. THEY are the ones using up their points on things...it's THEIR
concern. If they throw out points on snacks and treats- GOOD FOR THEM! I
don't think we should be denying ourselves all of these things because we
are on WW. I think the founders would be appalled if they heard we were
doing that! You have to understand that everyone is very different. You
don't need snacks, others do. You don't need treats, others do. That
doesn't
mean anyone is less of a WW member. Does that make sense?


It does to me. However, I do get a bit mad at myself if I eat treats
instead of more healthy food, but sometimes that's all I want. And I tell
myself that if I'm craving salty/crunchy foods that having two bags of
microwave 94% fat free popcorn for lunch is better than having a sandwich
plus two bags of popcorn.

Anny

"Kara H" wrote in message
...

I really haven't seen
people talking about eating chips and dips for snacks here and if they do
that- great. They are the ones who will be using up the points.

I often will have an ounce (or even two) of baked tortilla chips and salsa.
Every once in a while I'll mix the salsa with a tablespoon or two of nonfat
sour cream.


Every snack
I have isn't a "treat" unless you consider light pear cups a treat or WW
snack bars, etc. I *do* need a treat every day. It keeps me going. I get
that treat but I save up for it. It's not like my treats are WHOLE pints
of
ice cream. I will have a SkinnyCow sandwich or a whole fruit popsicle.

I'm not big on milk, so I budget the points for a low fat cookie to go with
my bedtime milk. The bedtime snack is important to me, in part because I
take a medication at bedtime that needs to be taken with food. But
honestly, even without the med I'd still want something at bedtime. And
something sweet -- the cookie and the milk to which I always add a splash of
sugar free syrup is a nice way to end the day.

I
understand you concerns but in the same way I don't really understand why
it
matters. THEY are the ones using up their points on things...it's THEIR
concern. If they throw out points on snacks and treats- GOOD FOR THEM! I
don't think we should be denying ourselves all of these things because we
are on WW. I think the founders would be appalled if they heard we were
doing that! You have to understand that everyone is very different. You
don't need snacks, others do. You don't need treats, others do. That
doesn't
mean anyone is less of a WW member. Does that make sense?


It does to me. However, I do get a bit mad at myself if I eat treats
instead of more healthy food, but sometimes that's all I want. And I tell
myself that if I'm craving salty/crunchy foods that having two bags of
microwave 94% fat free popcorn for lunch is better than having a sandwich
plus two bags of popcorn.

Anny

"Kate Dicey" wrote in message
...

Portion size also puzzles me... Are portions REALLY so large that
taking half home to eat later is expected? Here, portions can be
generous, but are rarely THAT big, and 'doggy-bagging' the remains is
only valid if the dog is there to back your claims! Re-heated
restaurant food is not the most attractive option...


Often, yes, they are that large. Last weekend we went to a new local
restaurant. The burgers were made from 8 ounces of meat each. This is
actually pretty standard around here for dinner burgers at restaurants.
Steaks that weigh in at 10 or more ounces are common (and 22 ounce "hearty
eater" portions are seen in quite a few restaurants).

But a difference between you and me is that I *love* re-heated restaurant
food! There's nothing like peering into the fridge and realizing that
there's still some kung pao shrimp to nuke for lunch.

And the whole "doggy bag" thing does seem to be somewhat cultural. I read
just a few days ago about how uncommon this is in Europe, while here in the
US if you leave more than a few bites on your plate it's almost guaranteed
that the waitperson will offer to wrap it up for you. And not just at
casual places -- fine restaurants with name chefs pretty much expect people
to want to take their leftovers with them.

Another cultural difference seems to be the number of courses expected in a
restaurant dinner. In many restaurants, a salad or soup is included with
your meal and many people have only that for starters. I'd estimate that at
least 95% of the time I do not order an appetizer at a restaurant, and that
most of the times when appetizers are ordered, one or two will be ordered to
be shared by the four or six people at the table. Many Europeans and
Australians seem to expect that any restaurant meal includes a starter
course.

I almost never order dessert in a restaurant, either, and I'd guess this is
true of many other Americans. In fact I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find
that more than half of all diners here forego a dessert course in most
restaurants. I expect this is not true in Europe.

Anny

I *do* have treats (but not every day), I *do* have lapses, I *do* have
greedy days when I go over points, but I don't fill the cupboard with
expensive low point snacky things as an alternative to the food that
made me ill and fat. Is it the pain thing with me? Or is it really a
cultural thing?

I'm with Kate on this.

Ray

Miss Violette wrote:

I think at least part of it is cultural and I think another part is
preference, and some is health related, for me beer = severe allergic
reaction, wine= a migraine at least half the time. I am the type of person
who got fat not by eating too much "junk" like cookies but by eating fat on
everything and in too big of portions. Our portions in restaurants are
actually huge. I recently got the whole wheat pasta from Olive Garden, It
was a dollar cheaper to get all you can eat and I was doing core, I had one
bowl of minestrone soup, 2 pts, then I had a first serving of pasta, it was
a cup and a half, and DH said it was smaller than the regular one serving
that he was sure was at least two cups. Now to chain restaurants, Here in
the U.S. there are less and less "mom and pop" places, I would never go into
a tavern to eat because most of the food is greasy and suspect at best.
Don't get me wrong, I will eat at a place that is a restaurant that serves
adult beverages just not an adult beverage place that has food, when these
are taken out of the mix there are few independents left. now to snacks. I
am not a sweet eater by nature, I have no difficulty eating 1 Hershey's
kiss, rarely eat salty chip type things. When we make the regular box cake
most is thrown away because we both forgot we made it and it is hiding in
the cover. I think this is a very valid topic and bears looking at, Lee,
who brought home ten ounces of a "small" t-bone the other day
Kate Dicey wrote in message
...

I think our pubs and yours must be very different. There days here in
the UK it's very difficult to make a living out of booze alone, and many
people want to take the whole family for an informal lunch. Proper home
cooked food is normal in a pub, and ranges from fish & chips through
giant Yorkshire puds filled with roast beef and onion gravy to gourmet
French restaurant or Thai or Mexican delicacies. There are 'family
rooms' where you can take the kids, or you find the whole place is open
to kids. Every year a thing called The Good Pub Guide comes out, that
will list places as good for families, good food places, tell you the
opening times and whether or not they are child friendly. It covers the
whole of Britain, and we tend to plan lunch stops on long journeys using it!

There are a lot of independent ethnic restaurants as well: in almost
every town you will find a decent Italian and Chinese places, and in
bigger places there will be a decent vegetarian place too, as well as
those serving UK and French based menus.


--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!