Real hunger vs. fake hunger

You know how sometimes you're not hungry in the sense that your body needs
nutrition, but you "just feel like eating"? This can be for different
reasons with different people, emotional eating, boredom, oral fixation,
etc. I call this "mouth hungry" as opposed to "stomach hungry." Sometimes
I have trouble telling the difference, especially during work at the movie
theater. My salivary glands get stimulated by the smell of the popcorn
popping, or the pictures on the candy boxes, even though I know I can't
possibly "need" any food at the moment. I believe I have an oral fixation
problem, so when I get "mouth hungry" I drink some water, chew a piece of
gum, or floss my teeth. Lately, "real hunger" has been sneaking up on me,
I keep distracting myself from eating and then all of a sudden my stomach
is actually growling. Stomach growling means it's really, actually, no
joking aside time to eat, right? Or does it mean that it's past time to
eat and I should have eaten earlier? Since I've spent most of my life
eating for reasons other than hunger, it's become very difficult to tell
when I actually need food and when I'm just bored or having a pavlovian
response to smells and images. Should I wait until my stomach is growling
to eat? Should I just eat three times a day, spaced evenly throughout the
day, whether I feel hungry or not? Should I eat something small every 2
hours or so and therefore never actually feel hungry? I feel intuitively
that I should wait until I feel hungry to eat, stomach hungry not mouth
hungry, because eating for reasons other than hunger is what got me fat in
the first place. But it also seems that if I wait too long, until I'm
ravenous, then I will be more prone to overeat. This is so confusing
sometiimes. *sigh*

--
-Michelle Levin (Luna)
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna

Luna wrote:
:: You know how sometimes you're not hungry in the sense that your body
:: needs nutrition, but you "just feel like eating"? This can be for
:: different reasons with different people, emotional eating, boredom,
:: oral fixation, etc. I call this "mouth hungry" as opposed to
:: "stomach hungry."

I call the first one appetite. You are not hungry, period, you just want to
eat. If you don't feel it in your stomach, you are not hungry. That just
me, but I don't like to use the word hunger for something that is really
hunger. I don't believe this oral fixation junk, because I have no desire
to put anything else in my mouth but food -- I just want to eat because I
enjoy it, because I'm ****ed, because I'm happy, because .....

Sometimes I have trouble telling the difference,
:: especially during work at the movie theater. My salivary glands get
:: stimulated by the smell of the popcorn popping, or the pictures on
:: the candy boxes, even though I know I can't possibly "need" any food
:: at the moment. I believe I have an oral fixation problem, so when I
:: get "mouth hungry" I drink some water, chew a piece of gum, or floss
:: my teeth. Lately, "real hunger" has been sneaking up on me, I keep
:: distracting myself from eating and then all of a sudden my stomach
:: is actually growling. Stomach growling means it's really, actually,
:: no joking aside time to eat, right?

Pretty much. However, if you don't eat then then those growling sounds will
subside, at least for me they do.

Or does it mean that it's past
:: time to eat and I should have eaten earlier?

IMO, it comes down to this: If letting yourself get to this point causes you
to overeat, then don't let yourself get to this point. If you can remain
sensible when eating after having gotten to this point, then I see no
problem not eating until you're really hungry.

Since I've spent most
:: of my life eating for reasons other than hunger, it's become very
:: difficult to tell when I actually need food and when I'm just bored
:: or having a pavlovian response to smells and images.

:: Should I wait
:: until my stomach is growling to eat? Should I just eat three times
:: a day, spaced evenly throughout the day, whether I feel hungry or
:: not? Should I eat something small every 2 hours or so and
:: therefore never actually feel hungry?

It really depends, imo, on how you function in those situations and what you
prefer. I limit my total calorie intake per day, so I eat whenever I want
to. On workout days, I could get 1/3 to 1/2 my calories after 10 pm. On non
workout days, I'll get them earlier. Sometimes, however, if I'm really
hungry before my workout, I'll get more calories before going to the gym,
because I don't like being hungry at the gym, but I also don't like working
out if I feel full from eating (which is a rare event these days).

I feel intuitively that I
:: should wait until I feel hungry to eat, stomach hungry not mouth
:: hungry, because eating for reasons other than hunger is what got me
:: fat in the first place. But it also seems that if I wait too long,
:: until I'm ravenous, then I will be more prone to overeat. This is
:: so confusing sometiimes. *sigh*

If you can't control yourself when you become ravenous, then don't become
ravenous. You must find what works for you. Also, imo, there is nothing
wrong with eating whenever you feel like it, as long as you don't overeat.


::
:: --
:: -Michelle Levin (Luna)
:: http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
:: http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna

Luna wrote:

You know how sometimes you're not hungry in the sense that your body needs
nutrition, but you "just feel like eating"? This can be for different
reasons with different people, emotional eating, boredom, oral fixation,
etc. I call this "mouth hungry" as opposed to "stomach hungry." Sometimes
I have trouble telling the difference, especially during work at the movie
theater. My salivary glands get stimulated by the smell of the popcorn
popping, or the pictures on the candy boxes, even though I know I can't
possibly "need" any food at the moment. I believe I have an oral fixation
problem, so when I get "mouth hungry" I drink some water, chew a piece of
gum, or floss my teeth. Lately, "real hunger" has been sneaking up on me,
I keep distracting myself from eating and then all of a sudden my stomach
is actually growling. Stomach growling means it's really, actually, no
joking aside time to eat, right? Or does it mean that it's past time to
eat and I should have eaten earlier? Since I've spent most of my life
eating for reasons other than hunger, it's become very difficult to tell
when I actually need food and when I'm just bored or having a pavlovian
response to smells and images. Should I wait until my stomach is growling
to eat? Should I just eat three times a day, spaced evenly throughout the
day, whether I feel hungry or not? Should I eat something small every 2
hours or so and therefore never actually feel hungry? I feel intuitively
that I should wait until I feel hungry to eat, stomach hungry not mouth
hungry, because eating for reasons other than hunger is what got me fat in
the first place. But it also seems that if I wait too long, until I'm
ravenous, then I will be more prone to overeat. This is so confusing
sometiimes. *sigh*




Here is what works for me. If I get hungry in between meals I drink a
bottle of water. If I am still hungy then I go ahead and have a snack.
Lots of times the water satisfies me. Since I have started this I have
lowered my calories and upped my water.

Andi
256/231/175

Luna writes:
I call this "mouth hungry" as opposed to "stomach hungry."

Actually, there are a couple of hunger signals:

1. Psychological, i.e. "mouth hungry". Social hunger.

2. Hunger due to gastric emptiness. Somewhat psychological, as in
"I'm not full any more, therefore it's time to eat again." A high
fiber/fat/protein meal will slow gastric emptying, and reduce this
effect.

3. Insulin-related hunger, aka the "chinese restaurant effect".
Insulin drops can trigger hunger. This one is what LC removes.

4. Low blood sugar. This is true hunger, when your body is lacking
the nutrition it needs to maintain healthy blood sugar levels.
Harder to identify, much less describe, but it's kinda like when
you start feeling weak, dizzy, light-headed, "foggy", etc.

Note that you have to eliminate number 3 in order to get a true
reading on number 4.

One way to tell the difference is to fast. The first day, you are
hungry, but it's not true hunger. The next day, you're not hungry.
The third or fourth day, you're hungry again, in a different way -
this is true hunger.

Stomach growling means it's really, actually, no joking aside time
to eat, right?

Stomach growling has nothing to do with true hunger. It just means
your stomach (or more likely, intestine) is still processing food, and
you hear that food gurgling along, perhaps with a gas bubble around it
or something.

DJ Delorie wrote:
:: Luna writes:
::: I call this "mouth hungry" as opposed to "stomach hungry."
::
:: Actually, there are a couple of hunger signals:
::
:: 1. Psychological, i.e. "mouth hungry". Social hunger.
::
:: 2. Hunger due to gastric emptiness. Somewhat psychological, as in
:: "I'm not full any more, therefore it's time to eat again." A high
:: fiber/fat/protein meal will slow gastric emptying, and reduce this
:: effect.
::
:: 3. Insulin-related hunger, aka the "chinese restaurant effect".
:: Insulin drops can trigger hunger. This one is what LC removes.
::
:: 4. Low blood sugar. This is true hunger, when your body is lacking
:: the nutrition it needs to maintain healthy blood sugar levels.
:: Harder to identify, much less describe, but it's kinda like when
:: you start feeling weak, dizzy, light-headed, "foggy", etc.
::
:: Note that you have to eliminate number 3 in order to get a true
:: reading on number 4.

So, does this mean that one needs to get weak, dizzy, light-headed, or foggy
before one eats again? I mean, this is "true hunger," right? Who came up
with this definition?

::
:: One way to tell the difference is to fast. The first day, you are
:: hungry, but it's not true hunger. The next day, you're not hungry.
:: The third or fourth day, you're hungry again, in a different way -
:: this is true hunger.

Yeah, you're about to pass out!

::
::: Stomach growling means it's really, actually, no joking aside time
::: to eat, right?
::
:: Stomach growling has nothing to do with true hunger. It just means
:: your stomach (or more likely, intestine) is still processing food,
:: and you hear that food gurgling along, perhaps with a gas bubble
:: around it or something.

Maybe all stomach growling doesn't have anything to do with true hunger, but
some does, according to me!

Cites, please!

"Roger Zoul" writes:

So, does this mean that one needs to get weak, dizzy, light-headed,
or foggy before one eats again? I mean, this is "true hunger,"
right?

I said it was hard to describe. The words I used don't really
describe a variety of symptoms that all happen, but the idea of a
single feeling that's similar to those.

Who came up with this definition?

Lighten up, Roger. It's words, not a definition. I made it up
myself, OK?

My definition is this: any "hungry" feeling that goes away if you wait
long enough isn't true hunger. Any that don't go away are true
hunger. Hunger isn't something you should be able to "wait out" else
we'd all die of starvation the first time we were distracted for a few
hours.

Yeah, you're about to pass out!

I've never noticed *that* before. But I do pass out from insulin
drops - before LC I couldn't stay awake through the afternoon.

I've done multi-day fasts. I've done very low cal diets. The "true
hunger" feeling kicks in, but stays constant for me and doesn't result
in me passing out.

Maybe all stomach growling doesn't have anything to do with true
hunger, but some does, according to me!

It may indicate that your stomach or intestines are empty, but even if
your entire intestinal tract is empty, does that mean you're hungry?
If your blood sugar and insulin are stable, your liver is full of
glycogen, and/or your blood FFA level is fine, why would you be
hungry? If you correlate grumbling with hunger, it's more of a
coincidence than cause and effect.

When fasting, after the first 20 hours or so (I think), your
gastrointestinal tract is empty. That's round-trip time for food if
your bowels are moving. Why aren't we hungry when fasting?

Cites, please!

Sorry, all based on anecdotal stuff (hey, I'm a computer programmer,
not a medical researcher and lots of general reading. Plus a
little high school biology and common sense.

http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_quest...F6809EC5880000
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mstomach.html

DJ Delorie wrote:

My definition is this: any "hungry" feeling that goes away if you wait
long enough isn't true hunger. Any that don't go away are true
hunger. Hunger isn't something you should be able to "wait out" else
we'd all die of starvation the first time we were distracted for a few
hours.

Okay, so when I fasted for 43 days this summer I was never truly
hungry? Because I stopped feeling hungry after the second day, so I
must not have been hungry...

Shirley

to reply via e-mail remove the trees from my address

DJ Delorie wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" writes:
::
::: So, does this mean that one needs to get weak, dizzy, light-headed,
::: or foggy before one eats again? I mean, this is "true hunger,"
::: right?
::
:: I said it was hard to describe. The words I used don't really
:: describe a variety of symptoms that all happen, but the idea of a
:: single feeling that's similar to those.

Ah....

::
::: Who came up with this definition?
::
:: Lighten up, Roger. It's words, not a definition. I made it up
:: myself, OK?

I was just certain it came from a book somewhere, I wanted to read it....

And I'm always light, bro....I was just in a hurry!

::
:: My definition is this: any "hungry" feeling that goes away if you
:: wait
:: long enough isn't true hunger.

I didn't realize it was your definition....really, it sounded so
authoritative and everything....

:: Any that don't go away are true
:: hunger. Hunger isn't something you should be able to "wait out" else
:: we'd all die of starvation the first time we were distracted for a
:: few
:: hours.

Well, the signals fade for some reason....maybe your body is deciding to
look elsewhere for fuel -- fat stores, muscle....BTW, I've never been in
this situation where -- even though the signals faded -- eating was stilll
appreciated.

Another idea is that perhaps those signals fade so the body can be
unhampered while searching for food. Back when man still had to hunt and
kill to eat, if no food was around and the hunger signals didn't decrease,
they would have caused problems for the hunter (imagine potential dinner
being alerted to your stomach growling ). My guess is that the body
sends signals letting us know when it is time to eat, but then makes subtle
changes once it realizes that food isn't available...time to turn to
internal food stores...

::
::: Yeah, you're about to pass out!
::
:: I've never noticed *that* before. But I do pass out from insulin
:: drops - before LC I couldn't stay awake through the afternoon.
::

You mean you get really sleepy, right?

:: I've done multi-day fasts. I've done very low cal diets. The "true
:: hunger" feeling kicks in, but stays constant for me and doesn't
:: result
:: in me passing out.

But you'd be weak and light headed, right? Not a good condition, imo.
Surely, your body has turned to feeding upon itself by now.

::
::: Maybe all stomach growling doesn't have anything to do with true
::: hunger, but some does, according to me!
::
:: It may indicate that your stomach or intestines are empty, but even
:: if
:: your entire intestinal tract is empty, does that mean you're hungry?

Typically, yes, I think it does. Observe animals. They want to eat on a
regular basis. I believe the body wants to be processing food all the
time...

:: If your blood sugar and insulin are stable, your liver is full of
:: glycogen, and/or your blood FFA level is fine, why would you be
:: hungry? If you correlate grumbling with hunger, it's more of a
:: coincidence than cause and effect.

I disagree there. If it were just a coincidence, I don't think it would
happen like clock work. I think one becomes truly hungry when the stomach
is empty. The body wants to have food coming in like clock work, imo. It
doesn't want to have to wait for BG to drop...or other things to start going
below baseline before more food comes, according to me!

::
:: When fasting, after the first 20 hours or so (I think), your
:: gastrointestinal tract is empty. That's round-trip time for food if
:: your bowels are moving. Why aren't we hungry when fasting?

Well, my guess is that during time when man had to wait long periods before
getting to eat again, those constant hunger signals would have been
bothersome. Hence, the body adapts by "lightening up" a bit so as not to
interfere with the process of getting food. Just my theory, mind you.

::
::: Cites, please!
::
:: Sorry, all based on anecdotal stuff (hey, I'm a computer programmer,
:: not a medical researcher and lots of general reading. Plus a
:: little high school biology and common sense.

Actually, the only problem I had with it was the term "true hunger"

::
::
http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_quest...F6809EC5880000

This one points out hunger contractions and hanger pangs. Both continue fro
a time periodically -- but the pangs subside.

:: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mstomach.html

Anywho, I didn't mean to "jump" on you....you just sparked my interest. I'm
sorry if it came across wrong....I always enjoy an interesting discussion
and certainly don't claim to have the answers....but I've got plenty of
opinions

"Roger Zoul" writes:
I was just certain it came from a book somewhere, I wanted to read
it....

I've read about hunger signals somewhere, I just don't remember where.

I didn't realize it was your definition....really, it sounded so
authoritative and everything....

I write a lot of computer docs. You have to sound authoritative for
those.

Well, the signals fade for some reason....maybe your body is
deciding to look elsewhere for fuel -- fat stores, muscle.

I think it's like this: When there's easy food around, the short-term
signals help you eat as much as possible in a short time, within the
limits of your digestive tract. As soon as the stomach has room, give
it more, etc. Once the easy food goes away, you switch to the
long-term signals, which are more subtle. Your body isn't *trying* to
make you hungry, but your energy levels change to reflect a more
conservative approach to fueling activity.

My guess is that the body sends signals letting us know when it is
time to eat,

Right. There's a difference between "we can eat now" and "we must eat
now".

:: I've never noticed *that* before. But I do pass out from insulin
:: drops - before LC I couldn't stay awake through the afternoon.

You mean you get really sleepy, right?

To the point where I actually fall asleep for half an hour or so, yes.

:: I've done multi-day fasts. I've done very low cal diets. The
:: "true hunger" feeling kicks in, but stays constant for me and
:: doesn't result in me passing out.

But you'd be weak and light headed, right? Not a good condition, imo.

Only slightly. Like I said, it's subtle. Which is probably why most
people can't tell.

Surely, your body has turned to feeding upon itself by now.

Well, that is the whole point of dieting :-)

I believe the body wants to be processing food all the time...

Wants to be, yes. Needs to be? Probably not.

I think one becomes truly hungry when the stomach is empty.

Er, even on LF my stomach was empty most of the day. Perhaps
you meant intestines?

http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_quest...F6809EC5880000

This one points out hunger contractions and hanger pangs. Both
continue fro a time periodically -- but the pangs subside.

Well, a lot of things are called "hunger" but this thread is about
differentiating among the different types of hunger. IMHO if an empty
stomach bothers you, eat smaller meals so that it gets used to being
less full and it will bother you less when it's empty.

When dieting, the key signals are the metabolic ones - blood sugar
levels, identifying metabolic slowdown, etc. We *want* to stay just a
little on the "hungry" side metabolically, so that we burn body fat.
The trick to doing this is ignoring all the gastrointestinal signals.

DJ DeLorie wrote:

:: I've done multi-day fasts. I've done very low cal diets. The "true
:: hunger" feeling kicks in, but stays constant for me and doesn't
:: result
:: in me passing out.

Roger Zoul wrote:

But you'd be weak and light headed, right? Not a good condition, imo.
Surely, your body has turned to feeding upon itself by now.

I can't speak for DJ and my experience was different (I didn't feel
hungry at all after the second day).

A lot of people assumed I would feel weak and light headed but it
wasn't so. And I didn't curtail my activity level, either. Just
lived my usual life except without eating.

I think if I got below a certain minimum bodyweight I'd probably
start to feel weak, dizzy, etc, but I'm a long way (unfortunately)
from facing that problem.

Well, my guess is that during time when man had to wait long periods before
getting to eat again, those constant hunger signals would have been
bothersome. Hence, the body adapts by "lightening up" a bit so as not to
interfere with the process of getting food. Just my theory, mind you.

Keep in mind that for many types of sensory stimulation the nervous
system habituates if it goes on long enough. One fairly well known
phenomenon is that of becoming insensitive to a certain scent,
leading one to apply more and more of it.

A constant state is more likely to become habituated than an
inconsistant state. I think, based on my own experience only, that
hunger falls into the category of "easily habituated" if it doesn't
change much.

Shirley

to reply via e-mail remove the trees from my address