Why Bad Diets Are Bad?

In article ,
Who_me? wrote:

On 17/08/11 3:08 PM, Billy wrote:
In ,
wrote:

On 17/08/11 2:02 AM, wrote:
On Aug 15, 9:42 pm, wrote:
On 16/08/11 12:08 AM, wrote:




First, you did NOT say that the ongoing Dukan diet is nearly
identical to your own. You just said the Dukan diet. I would
suspect that the ongoing phase of the Dukan diet is very
similar to Atkins. So, once again, you're twisting and
turning.

Read through the thread again - try it with your eyes open this time.

You're the troll with the closed eyes. You only added the
ongoing part after you were caught and exposed as not
realizing that the Duakn diet starting out...

Caught and exposed? You are comical - and not very closely in touch with
reality. Caught and exposed - what a funny and somewhat pathetic little man
you are.

Elucidating for those who seem unable or unwilling to use their intellect.

If you are smart enough, try going back a decade or so and finding my
original posts on Atkins, using my original nick - back when this group was
actually active. Had a lot of discussion in those days, with a lot of
people on both sides of the fence. My writing style should make locating my
posts (there were a lot of them) easy to locate. It will give you something
to do to take your mind off your carb cravings.

Two things you should remember.

One: this is NOT an Atkins group, it is a low carb group, and try to hide
from the fact as determinedly as you are, the fact is that there are many,
many non-Atkins low carb options.

Two: The Atkins Diet, according to the Atkins group itself, died several
years ago when they had to file for chapter eleven protection - as NO ONE
was buying the product and they losing more money that they were
generating. They filed this information with the court - that is a matter
of record. If the company who runs Atkins thinks it has run its course -
what does that make you? I can't recall the last time I went to any store
and found Atkins products on the shelves, although there are any number of
other low carb diet products available. I suppose that some stores might be
still holding some years out of date stock, but I haven't seen or heard of
them.

Wha'chew doing in a group like this? Go somewhere where you can do some
good.

I was hoping for some intelligent discussion on low carb lifestyle from
people who weren't rabid close-minded Atkin's groupies. This used to be a
far more widely populated NG - a few years ago when I last looked. In those
days a lot of regulars were from diabetic and fitness groups - many of whom
had an interest in low carb but not limited to Atkins. When I last posted
here Atkins was already being supplanted by Agatston & Almon's South Beach
Diet.

If you're not going to go away, and you want to contribute, at least
give citations that aren't snipe hunts. At present, it seems that you
are just shoveling it out of your back-side. Nice shovel work, but still
just shovel work.
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

Billy wrote:
Who_me? wrote:

Two: The Atkins Diet, according to the Atkins group itself, died several
years ago when they had to file for chapter eleven protection - as NO ONE
was buying the product ...

The heart of the program is the book - "Amazon Bestsellers Rank:
#14,084 in Books" It's still selling well according to Amazon.

There has never been any need for any product to eat the food of the
plan. That's why products with the Atkins name eventually failed. They
aren't really on the core plan in that sense. They are supporting cast
for new folks who haven't retaught themselves how to shop for At-food
yet.

It is far better to follow the Atkins process without ever using one
Atkins labelled product at all than it is to use Atkins labelled
products on a daily basis. The foods are mostly processed junk that
served as crutches. The supplements are excellent quality but more
expensive than even the equivalents from GNC. Good quality supplements
are easily found and not really necessary unless you extend Induction
against the standard two week flow of the default core plan. Doing that
is allowed and that's not the same thing as either required or a part of
the default core plan itself.

Wha'chew doing in a group like this?

Giving folks chances to repeat stuff that hasn't been discussed in a
while. He isn't completely bad in that sense. Enough folks have not
put him in their kill files that some discussion remains visible on the
group. Some traffic beats old traffic, especially when it cycles
through an assortment of topics that are old hat to all of the regulars
but that might not be known to new readers.

On Aug 17, 11:25*am, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Billy wrote:
*Who_me? wrote:

Two: The Atkins Diet, according to the Atkins group itself, died several
years ago when they had to file for chapter eleven protection - as NO ONE
was buying the product ...

As I pointed out to the troll previously, if he were as familiar
with LC as he claims to be, he would know that about 10
years ago there was a sudden and big increase in interest
in LC. Not just Atkins, but LC in general. Guys like Taubes
were writing articles in the NY Times that were supportive
of LC and the concept took off. Hence, a large number of
companies came out with LC specific products. It was
not an Atkins company specific thing. His diet was popular for
decades before there were any Atkins diet products. And
it remains one of the most popular LC diets today.

The big interest in LC fell off just as rapidly as it suddenly
increased. That caused difficulties for not only Atkins
but many others from companies both those specifically marketing
diet products as well as large, traditional food companies.
Any rational person knows it has nothing to do with
whether the Atkins diet is safe, effective and popular.

And now we have the Dukan diet, which the troll says is
peechy keen and what he does. Remarkably,
it's very similar to ATkins. Gee, wonder where
Dukan got the idea from?
In fact it starts you off at zero carbs for 10 days, with
NO VEGETABLES and puts you in ketosis.
Exposed as a fool for endorsing it,
while claiming Atkins is unsafe and will
make your kidneys fall out, troll is now left to bitch
about the bankruptcy of Atkins nutritional, which
made LC products. And even in that he exposes his
ignorance once again, by claiming that those products
are no longer available. Go into Walmart and they
are right there in the diet food section. They have
the Atkins bars and Atkins shakes. They are also
in health food stores, GNC, etc. Clearly troll is
just that, a troll and a clueless one at that.






The heart of the program is the book - "Amazon Bestsellers Rank:
#14,084 in Books" *It's still selling well according to Amazon.

There has never been any need for any product to eat the food of the
plan. That's why products with the Atkins name eventually failed. They
aren't really on the core plan in that sense. They are supporting cast
for new folks who haven't retaught themselves how to shop for At-food
yet.

It is far better to follow the Atkins process without ever using one
Atkins labelled product at all than it is to use Atkins labelled
products on a daily basis. *The foods are mostly processed junk that
served as crutches. *The supplements are excellent quality but more
expensive than even the equivalents from GNC. *Good quality supplements
are easily found and not really necessary unless you extend Induction
against the standard two week flow of the default core plan. *Doing that
is allowed and that's not the same thing as either required or a part of
the default core plan itself.



Agree, there was never a need to use the Atkins products. Nor
did he ever claim that you had to. I think they are fine in
moderation, for example carrying a bar around in case you get
hungry and want a snack handy. I agree they should never
be a core part of the diet and if you can't use them in moderation
it's better to stay away from them all together.

On 18/08/11 3:50 AM, wrote:
On Aug 17, 11:25 am, Doug wrote:
Billy wrote:
wrote:

Two: The Atkins Diet, according to the Atkins group itself, died several
years ago when they had to file for chapter eleven protection - as NO ONE
was buying the product ...

As I pointed out to the troll previously,


Let me see. I am posting in a low carb news group. I am and have been for
decades a low carb follower, I fully support effective low carb lifestyles,
I am a successful extremely long term low carb fitness enthusiast, I have
said nothing against low carb diets other than taking them to extremes as
Atkins does. I am not alone in my opinion of Atkins, most medical and
health/fitness professionals disparaged his diet as potentially dangerously
extreme, yet because I don't agree with your blind obeisance to the God
Atkins - I am a troll?

What are you? A newbie? You don't seem to understand that a troll is not
simply someone who disagrees with you. (Is your Mother-in-Law a troll?)


if he were as familiar with LC as he claims to be,


Apparently much more familiar than you. My mind doesn't close when not
standing in the shadow of Atkins.

he would know that about 10
years ago there was a sudden and big increase in interest
in LC. Not just Atkins, but LC in general. Guys like Taubes
were writing articles in the NY Times that were supportive
of LC and the concept took off. Hence, a large number of
companies came out with LC specific products. It was
not an Atkins company specific thing. His diet was popular for
decades before there were any Atkins diet products. And
it remains one of the most popular LC diets today.

The big interest in LC fell off just as rapidly as it suddenly
increased. That caused difficulties for not only Atkins
but many others from companies both those specifically marketing
diet products as well as large, traditional food companies.
Any rational person knows it has nothing to do with
whether the Atkins diet is safe, effective and popular.

No, of course not. It is completely normal for people to stop buying
popular products. (Do you realise just how ludicrous some of your statement
are?)


And now we have the Dukan diet, which the troll says is
peechy keen and what he does.

I have not said any such thing. I said that it echoes my diet - not the
initial phase, just the ongoing (over several decades) diet.

Remarkably,
it's very similar to ATkins. Gee, wonder where
Dukan got the idea from?

The Dukan diet is more than thirty years old - for years (until recently
when an English translation of his book) many people simply referred to it
as "the French Diet" and marveled at how French women stayed so slim and
sexy. It is far from a copy of Atkins. Also Atkins did NOT invent the
Atkins diet, he never claimed to do so, he just promoted it. How familiar
did you imply that you were with low carb?


In fact it starts you off at zero carbs for 10 days,with
NO VEGETABLES and puts you in ketosis.

Wrong - read it again - or don't you actually have a copy of the real book?
You seem to be parroting misinformation.

Exposed as a fool for endorsing it,
while claiming Atkins is unsafe and will
make your kidneys fall out,

Yeah, you have to watch your step, when your kidneys fall out they are
slippery and could lead to a nasty fall.


troll is now left to bitch
about the bankruptcy of Atkins nutritional, which
made LC products. And even in that he exposes his
ignorance once again, by claiming that those products
are no longer available. Go into Walmart and they
are right there in the diet food section.

Not from Atkins nutritionals - unless of course they are very old stock.
Unless the Atkins group is lying to investigators. Of course there are many
products that are completely unassociated with the Atkins group (most out
of Taiwan and China) that mention their product as "suitable" for low carb
diets and use the Atkins name as one such diet.

There have been no original Atkins products here for more than a decade and
the health food stores that used to stock them had notices many years ago
to the effect that they were no longer in production.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:20:59 +1000, Who_me?
wrote:

Not from Atkins nutritionals - unless of course they are very old stock.
Unless the Atkins group is lying to investigators. Of course there are many
products that are completely unassociated with the Atkins group (most out
of Taiwan and China) that mention their product as "suitable" for low carb
diets and use the Atkins name as one such diet.

There have been no original Atkins products here for more than a decade and
the health food stores that used to stock them had notices many years ago
to the effect that they were no longer in production.


Two points:

If memory serves, Atkins Nutritionals didn't file for bankruptcy until
2005. While it is conceivable that none of their products were
available for "more than a decade" in your area, that would suggest
that you live in a rather isolated place with very little in the way
of retailers who might carry such a product. Since the minimum time
your "more than a decade" would cover would be back to the year 2000,
that means that nothing from them was available even during the years
when Lowcarb was suddenly faddishly popular. Even if that somehow
happened in your area, do you consider your area to be representative
of the entire country? And did you actually search for the product,
or did you simply note that the store that you regularly shopped at no
longer carried that product (and from that you generalized to there
being none available anywhere in your area)?

Also if memory serves, Atkins Nutritional came out of bankruptcy (as
many companies do) the following year (2006). They belonged to
someone new, but the company still existed and still produced several
products under the old name. (I think they were sold again in 2010,
but are still operating.) I see them on store shelves in some of the
stores I frequent, but as I don't purchase those products I don't
particularly notice how many products there now are verses what was
available during the years when Lowcarb was "In".

In article ,
Who_me? wrote:

On 18/08/11 3:50 AM, wrote:
On Aug 17, 11:25 am, Doug wrote:
Billy wrote:
wrote:

Two: The Atkins Diet, according to the Atkins group itself, died several
years ago when they had to file for chapter eleven protection - as NO ONE
was buying the product ...

As I pointed out to the troll previously,


Let me see. I am posting in a low carb news group. I am and have been for
decades a low carb follower, I fully support effective low carb lifestyles,
I am a successful extremely long term low carb fitness enthusiast, I have
said nothing against low carb diets other than taking them to extremes as
Atkins does. I am not alone in my opinion of Atkins, most medical and
health/fitness professionals disparaged his diet as potentially dangerously
extreme, yet because I don't agree with your blind obeisance to the God
Atkins - I am a troll?

What are you? A newbie? You don't seem to understand that a troll is not
simply someone who disagrees with you. (Is your Mother-in-Law a troll?)


if he were as familiar with LC as he claims to be,


Apparently much more familiar than you. My mind doesn't close when not
standing in the shadow of Atkins.

he would know that about 10
years ago there was a sudden and big increase in interest
in LC. Not just Atkins, but LC in general. Guys like Taubes
were writing articles in the NY Times that were supportive
of LC and the concept took off. Hence, a large number of
companies came out with LC specific products. It was
not an Atkins company specific thing. His diet was popular for
decades before there were any Atkins diet products. And
it remains one of the most popular LC diets today.

The big interest in LC fell off just as rapidly as it suddenly
increased. That caused difficulties for not only Atkins
but many others from companies both those specifically marketing
diet products as well as large, traditional food companies.
Any rational person knows it has nothing to do with
whether the Atkins diet is safe, effective and popular.

No, of course not. It is completely normal for people to stop buying
popular products. (Do you realise just how ludicrous some of your statement
are?)


And now we have the Dukan diet, which the troll says is
peechy keen and what he does.

I have not said any such thing. I said that it echoes my diet - not the
initial phase, just the ongoing (over several decades) diet.

Remarkably,
it's very similar to ATkins. Gee, wonder where
Dukan got the idea from?

The Dukan diet is more than thirty years old - for years (until recently
when an English translation of his book) many people simply referred to it
as "the French Diet" and marveled at how French women stayed so slim and
sexy. It is far from a copy of Atkins. Also Atkins did NOT invent the
Atkins diet, he never claimed to do so, he just promoted it. How familiar
did you imply that you were with low carb?


In fact it starts you off at zero carbs for 10 days,with
NO VEGETABLES and puts you in ketosis.

Wrong - read it again - or don't you actually have a copy of the real book?
You seem to be parroting misinformation.

Exposed as a fool for endorsing it,
while claiming Atkins is unsafe and will
make your kidneys fall out,

Yeah, you have to watch your step, when your kidneys fall out they are
slippery and could lead to a nasty fall.


troll is now left to bitch
about the bankruptcy of Atkins nutritional, which
made LC products. And even in that he exposes his
ignorance once again, by claiming that those products
are no longer available. Go into Walmart and they
are right there in the diet food section.

Not from Atkins nutritionals - unless of course they are very old stock.
Unless the Atkins group is lying to investigators. Of course there are many
products that are completely unassociated with the Atkins group (most out
of Taiwan and China) that mention their product as "suitable" for low carb
diets and use the Atkins name as one such diet.

There have been no original Atkins products here for more than a decade and
the health food stores that used to stock them had notices many years ago
to the effect that they were no longer in production.

Again, no citations, all opinions.
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

On Aug 18, 12:49*am, (Harold Groot) wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:20:59 +1000, Who_me?
wrote:

Not from Atkins nutritionals - unless of course they are very old stock.
Unless the Atkins group is lying to investigators. Of course there are many
products that are completely unassociated with the Atkins group (most out
of Taiwan and China) that mention their product as "suitable" for low carb
diets and use the Atkins name as one such diet.

There have been no original Atkins products here for more than a decade and
the health food stores that used to stock them had notices many years ago
to the effect that they were no longer in production.

Two points:

If memory serves, Atkins Nutritionals didn't file for bankruptcy until
2005. *While it is conceivable that none of their products were
available for "more than a decade" in your area, that would suggest
that you live in a rather isolated place with very little in the way
of retailers who might carry such a product. *Since the minimum time
your "more than a decade" would cover would be back to the year 2000,
that means that nothing from them was available even during the years
when Lowcarb was suddenly faddishly popular. *Even if that somehow
happened in your area, do you consider your area to be representative
of the entire country? *And did you actually search for the product,
or did you simply note that the store that you regularly shopped at no
longer carried that product (and from that you generalized to there
being none available anywhere in your area)?

Also if memory serves, Atkins Nutritional came out of bankruptcy (as
many companies do) the following year (2006). *They belonged to
someone new, but the company still existed and still produced several
products under the old name. *(I think they were sold again in 2010,
but are still operating.) *I see them on store shelves in some of the
stores I frequent, but as I don't purchase those products I don't
particularly notice how many products there now are verses what was
available during the years when Lowcarb was "In".

Harold, it's quite incredible how this troll continues to make
a total ass of himself. Of course you are right, which is
that Atkins Nutritionals is in business and selling Atkins diet
products. As I stated before, they are available here in the
NYC area at Walmart, GNC, drug stores. Very common and
easy to find.

As for Atkins Nutritionals, here's what Bloomberg/Business Week
has to say:


http://investing.businessweek.com/re...vcapId=3007335

Company Overview
Atkins Nutritionals, Inc. manufactures and sells weight control
nutrition bars, foods, and shakes. Its products are used by men and
women for weight loss and weight management applications. The company
markets its products through a network of retail stores, as well as
online in the United States and internationally. Atkins Nutritionals,
Inc. was formerly known as Atkins Complementary Formulations, Inc. and
changed its name in 1998. The company was founded in 1989 and is based
in Denver, Colorado. Atkins Nutritionals, Inc. operates as a
subsidiary of Atkins Nutritionals Holdings, Inc.

Here is the company's website:

http://www.atkins.com/ContactUs.aspx

So, now what troll is posting, which is that the company no
longer exists and the products are no longer available is
not only wrong, but it's libelous.

On Aug 17, 10:20*pm, Who_me? wrote:
On 18/08/11 3:50 AM, wrote:

On Aug 17, 11:25 am, Doug *wrote:
Billy wrote:
* *wrote:

Two: The Atkins Diet, according to the Atkins group itself, died several
years ago when they had to file for chapter eleven protection - as NO ONE
was buying the product ...

As I pointed out to the troll previously,

Let me see. I am posting in a low carb news group. I am and have been for
decades a low carb follower, I fully support effective low carb lifestyles,
I am a successful extremely long term low carb fitness enthusiast, I have
said nothing against low carb diets other than taking them to extremes as
Atkins does.

First, there is nothing extreme about Atkins. Second, it's
laughable that you claim Atkins is extreme, while endorsing
Dukan. Atkins starts you out eating a variety of proteins,
fat, and vegetables, with a limit of 20g of carbs a day for
the first two weeks. Dukan starts you out on pure protein
and no vegetables for the first 10 says. So, clearly you
either are a troll or did not know much about either diet
and got yourself into a blind corner. Rather than admit
it, you continue to make an ass of yourself.

Funny how in a LC newgroup you have 6 regulars here
that all agree you're full of BS. There is not one person
here that supports or even believes you.



I am not alone in my opinion of Atkins, most medical and
health/fitness professionals disparaged his diet as potentially dangerously
extreme, yet because I don't agree with your blind obeisance to the God
Atkins - I am a troll?

No, you're a troll because you've done everything you
could to try to discredit Atkins. From bringing up the
old crap about his autopsy weight, to claiming Atkins
Nutritional products are no longer available. Who should
we believe, you or our eyes:

http://www.atkins.com/ContactUs.aspx

And you're a troll because you endorsed the Dukan diet.
How the hell can Atkins be called extreme, while Dukan
which starts you off at zero carb and zero fat, not be?
How can Atkins damage your kidneys, while Dukan
does not? Why don't you say that Dukan is unsafe
and unhealthy?


And you're a troll because you continue to make the
claim that most medical and health experts disparage
the Atkins diet. I've already provided you with links
that actually much worse is said about Dukan. Yet,
here you are slamming Atkins while endorsing
Dukan.

Here's some more of what "experts" say about Dukan:


According to Zuckerbrot, the Dukan Diet already has a bad reputation
in the world of dietitians.

“France’s National Agency for Food, Environmental and Work Health
Safety pointed out the Dukan Diet as one of 15 imbalanced and
potentially risky diets. The British Dietetic Association, has also
listed the Dukan Diet as one of the five worst diets of 2011,” she
said.

By eliminating key foods from your diet, Zuckerbrot said Dukan’s plan
can create a nutrition deficiency as well as high cholesterol and even
kidney problems."


Now note that I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with the
above, just that if you're not a troll, why do you bring up similar
stuff against Atkins, while endorsing Dukan?

And you're a troll because you have not backed up
ANYTHING you've claimed in this thread with a
reference. For example, you claimed that all
overweight people do not have normal kidney
function. Let's start with that one. Show us a
reference.




What are you? A newbie? You don't seem to understand that a troll is not
simply someone who disagrees with you. (Is your Mother-in-Law a troll?)

if he were as familiar with LC as he claims to be,

Apparently much more familiar than you. My mind doesn't close when not
standing in the shadow of Atkins.



If you know so much, then why did you claim that Atkins
is dangerous and will ruin your kidneys while Dukan
will not? We're still waiting for the answer to that one.









he would know that about 10
years ago there was a sudden and big increase in interest
in LC. *Not just Atkins, but LC in general. *Guys like Taubes
were writing articles in the NY Times that were supportive
of LC and the concept took off. *Hence, a large number of
companies came out with LC specific products. *It was
not an Atkins company specific thing. *His diet was popular for
decades before there were any Atkins diet products. *And
it remains one of the most popular LC diets today.

The big interest in LC fell off just as rapidly as it suddenly
increased. *That caused difficulties for not only Atkins
but many others from companies both those specifically marketing
diet products as well as large, traditional food companies.
Any rational person knows it has nothing to do with
whether the Atkins diet is safe, effective and popular.

No, of course not. It is completely normal for people to stop buying
popular products. (Do you realise just how ludicrous some of your statement
are?)



Do you realize how stupid you are? LC reached a
fad status briefly about 10 years ago. When things
returned to normal there was less demand
for all kinds of LC products from virtually every company
that made them. It was NOT Atkins specific. 10 years
ago the supermarket shelves were full of products
marketed specifically as LC, everything from cereal
to barbecue sauce. Today, that number is greatly
reduced because LC dieting of all types is just
not as popular. It has nothing to do with Atkins
specifically. Atkins never said that you had to use
any specific LC products at all, whether from his
company or any other company.

Yet, being a troll, you try to link the boom/bust of
LC to Atkins. Was not your boy Dukan around
then too? Oh, wait. It was precisely during that
boom that he choose to publish his book. If
he sold more books in 2001 than he does
today, does that mean his diet is a failure too?




And now we have the Dukan diet, which the troll says is
peechy keen and what he does.

I have not said any such thing. I said that it echoes my diet - not the
initial phase, just the ongoing (over several decades) diet.

Yeah, you added that "ongoing" qualifier after you
endorsed Dukan and apparently then realized that
it starts you out with pure protein and in ketosis. So,
of course you try to weasel out of it. Let me help
you out here. The Dukan diet has 4 phases, non
of which is referred to as "ongoing". They are
attack, cruise, consolidation, stabilization. So,
once again, you don't even know the Dukan
terms.

But assuming you mean that you're in the
stabilization phase, let's compare apples to
apples. Tell us why Dukan stabilization is
peachy keen, but Atkins maintenance is
unhealthy and damaging to your kidneys.



Remarkably,
* it's very similar to ATkins. *Gee, wonder where
Dukan got the idea from?

The Dukan diet is more than thirty years old - for years (until recently
when an English translation of his book) many people simply referred to it
as *"the French Diet" and marveled at how French women stayed so slim and
sexy. It is far from a copy of Atkins. Also Atkins did NOT invent the
Atkins diet, he never claimed to do so, he just promoted it. How familiar
did you imply that you were with low carb?

A lot more familiar than you. Let me help you out.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukan_Diet

"In 1975, Pierre Dukan was a general practitioner in Paris when he was
first confronted with a case of obesity. At the time, being overweight
or obese was thought to be best treated by low calorie and small sized
meals. Dukan thought of an alternative way to prevent patients from
regaining their lost weight. He designed a new approach in 4 phases,
including stabilisation and consolidation. After 20 odd years of
research Pierre Dukan published his findings in 2000 in his book Je ne
sais pas maigrir (I don't know how to get slimmer) which became a best
seller."


Now, folks, let's consider the facts.
Atkins had followed a similar path.
He tried low carbing himself, starting in the early 60's, then started
using it on patients for about a decade refining it over time.
He came out with his first book, Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution,
with the actual diet plan in 1972. That's right, Atkins first
book was out for 3 years and was a best seller BEFORE
Dukan was first confronted with a case of obesity. Dukan
published his book in 2000, offering a diet plan remarkably
similar to Atkins, right down to using four phases. I'll
leave it for reasonable people to make their own judgements
as to what really happened here.




In fact it starts you off at zero carbs for 10 days,with
NO VEGETABLES and puts you in ketosis.

Wrong - read it again - or don't you actually have a copy of the real book?
You seem to be parroting misinformation.

Since you know so much, provide a reference for the
list of vegetables allowed in the attack phase. The only
thing I can find that is even made from what might
be considered a vegetable is tofu.

On Atkins you'd be eating broccoli, spinach, pumpkin,
squahs, turnips, bean sprouts, string beans.....
I could list dozens more. Give us the Dukan list
reference.




troll is now left to bitch
about the bankruptcy of Atkins nutritional, which
made LC products. *And even in that he exposes his
ignorance once again, by claiming that those products
are no longer available. *Go into Walmart and they
are right there in the diet food section.

Not from Atkins nutritionals - unless of course they are very old stock.
Unless the Atkins group is lying to investigators. Of course there are many
products that are completely unassociated with the Atkins group (most out
of Taiwan and China) that mention their product as "suitable" for low carb
diets and use the Atkins name as one such diet.

A lie which is libelous:

http://www.atkins.com/ContactUs.aspx

CONTACT US

1-800-6-ATKINS
Mailing Address:
Atkins Nutritionals, Inc.
1050 17th Street, Suite 1000
Denver, CO 80265




There have been no original Atkins products here for more than a decade and
the health food stores that used to stock them had notices many years ago
to the effect that they were no longer in production.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Apparently you live in a cave, but far more likely, being a troll
you're lying again. No Walmarts in your cave? No
GNC? You apparently have internet access, don't you
know how to find online stores?

On 18/08/11 9:53 PM, wrote:
On Aug 17, 10:20 pm, wrote:
On 18/08/11 3:50 AM, wrote:

On Aug 17, 11:25 am, Doug wrote:
Billy wrote:
wrote:

Two: The Atkins Diet, according to the Atkins group itself, died several
years ago when they had to file for chapter eleven protection - as NO ONE
was buying the product ...

As I pointed out to the troll previously,

Let me see. I am posting in a low carb news group. I am and have been for
decades a low carb follower, I fully support effective low carb lifestyles,
I am a successful extremely long term low carb fitness enthusiast, I have
said nothing against low carb diets other than taking them to extremes as
Atkins does.

First, there is nothing extreme about Atkins.

The only thing that I can gather from that claim is that you are not, nor
ever have been a fit person. Maybe you lost some weight with Atkins, but
that is far as you have gone. It does not support strength or endurance
sports. If it can do real damage to an athlete, then it is extreme, even if
all you do is sit on a couch and worship Atkins.


Second, it's
laughable that you claim Atkins is extreme, while endorsing
Dukan. Atkins starts you out eating a variety of proteins,
fat, and vegetables, with a limit of 20g of carbs a day for
the first two weeks. Dukan starts you out on pure protein
and no vegetables for the first 10 says.

Once again - READ THE BOOK. You clearly haven't.

So, clearly you
either are a troll or did not know much about either diet
and got yourself into a blind corner. Rather than admit
it, you continue to make an ass of yourself.

No, even though making an ass of myself would probably make it easier to
blend in with people like yourself.

Funny how in a LC newgroup you have 6 regulars here
that all agree you're full of BS. There is not one person
here that supports or even believes you.

Should I burst in sobs now - or just laugh. (I think I will compromise and
just have a little chuckle.) I wasn't looking for fat people, I was looking
for fit people. There is more than just one vowel difference, but I doubt
that you will ever experience it if you really think that there is no
problem with Atkins.



I am not alone in my opinion of Atkins, most medical and
health/fitness professionals disparaged his diet as potentially dangerously
extreme, yet because I don't agree with your blind obeisance to the God
Atkins - I am a troll?

No, you're a troll because you've done everything you
could to try to discredit Atkins.

No, that was happening many years ago - headed by his peers.

From bringing up the
old crap about his autopsy weight,

It gets a good reaction - truth seems to hurt some people.

to claiming Atkins
Nutritional products are no longer available. Who should
we believe, you or our eyes:

They haven't been for some years.

http://www.atkins.com/ContactUs.aspx

That is US only, and they are a food retailer, not a diet company according
to their own blurb.

This is the internet, an international forum. Are you so naive that you
don't realise that? Atkins was world wide until it folded. It has NOT come
back anywhere that I visit.


And you're a troll because you endorsed the Dukan diet.
How the hell can Atkins be called extreme, while Dukan
which starts you off at zero carb and zero fat, not be?
How can Atkins damage your kidneys, while Dukan
does not? Why don't you say that Dukan is unsafe
and unhealthy?

You are repeating yourself. You clearly have not read Dukan.



And you're a troll because you continue to make the
claim that most medical and health experts disparage
the Atkins diet.

They do. Try the American Heart Foundation and the Harvard School of Health
and work down from there.

I've already provided you with links
that actually much worse is said about Dukan. Yet,
here you are slamming Atkins while endorsing
Dukan.

I can find links to research that insists that mother's milk is bad for babies.


Here's some more of what "experts" say about Dukan:


According to Zuckerbrot, the Dukan Diet already has a bad reputation
in the world of dietitians.

“France’s National Agency for Food, Environmental and Work Health
Safety pointed out the Dukan Diet as one of 15 imbalanced and
potentially risky diets. The British Dietetic Association, has also
listed the Dukan Diet as one of the five worst diets of 2011,” she
said.

By eliminating key foods from your diet, Zuckerbrot said Dukan’s plan
can create a nutrition deficiency as well as high cholesterol and even
kidney problems."

Yet is is less severe than Atkins - if you actually read the book and not
rely on some one who is probably as non-knowledgeable as yourself.


Now note that I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with the
above, just that if you're not a troll, why do you bring up similar
stuff against Atkins, while endorsing Dukan?

Smarten up. I didn't endorse Dukan - what I said, and repeated, was that
Dukan's maintenance phase is similar to my own diet. I said very clearly
that I had NOT done the Dukan diet.

And you're a troll because you have not backed up
ANYTHING you've claimed in this thread with a
reference. For example, you claimed that all
overweight people do not have normal kidney
function. Let's start with that one. Show us a
reference.

Ok, get me a room full of fat people with recent full medical work-ups and
I'll read them out to you. BTW, not all, just most. Be accurate.


What are you? A newbie? You don't seem to understand that a troll is not
simply someone who disagrees with you. (Is your Mother-in-Law a troll?)

if he were as familiar with LC as he claims to be,

Apparently much more familiar than you. My mind doesn't close when not
standing in the shadow of Atkins.



If you know so much, then why did you claim that Atkins
is dangerous and will ruin your kidneys while Dukan
will not? We're still waiting for the answer to that one.

You learn what Dukan really is - read the book instead of parroting
inaccurate rubbish and you won't need to have soemone else answer for you.



he would know that about 10
years ago there was a sudden and big increase in interest
in LC. Not just Atkins, but LC in general. Guys like Taubes
were writing articles in the NY Times that were supportive
of LC and the concept took off. Hence, a large number of
companies came out with LC specific products. It was
not an Atkins company specific thing. His diet was popular for
decades before there were any Atkins diet products. And
it remains one of the most popular LC diets today.

The big interest in LC fell off just as rapidly as it suddenly
increased. That caused difficulties for not only Atkins
but many others from companies both those specifically marketing
diet products as well as large, traditional food companies.
Any rational person knows it has nothing to do with
whether the Atkins diet is safe, effective and popular.

No, of course not. It is completely normal for people to stop buying
popular products. (Do you realise just how ludicrous some of your statement
are?)



Do you realize how stupid you are? LC reached a
fad status briefly about 10 years ago. When things
returned to normal there was less demand
for all kinds of LC products from virtually every company
that made them. It was NOT Atkins specific.

Crap. Other low carb diet took up the slack - diets that are still popular
and supported. The fad was Atkins and apparently you are still being
"faddish", well after most people walked away.



10 years
ago the supermarket shelves were full of products
marketed specifically as LC, everything from cereal
to barbecue sauce. Today, that number is greatly
reduced because LC dieting of all types is just
not as popular. It has nothing to do with Atkins
specifically. Atkins never said that you had to use
any specific LC products at all, whether from his
company or any other company.

Yet, being a troll, you try to link the boom/bust of
LC to Atkins. Was not your boy Dukan around
then too? Oh, wait. It was precisely during that
boom that he choose to publish his book.

No, it was several years before that he published and ENGLISH LANGUAGE
version, It was available in French well before that.

he sold more books in 2001 than he does
today, does that mean his diet is a failure too?

His diet is still making headlines and getting written up in women's
magazines as currently as this week.




And now we have the Dukan diet, which the troll says is
peechy keen and what he does.

I have not said any such thing. I said that it echoes my diet - not the
initial phase, just the ongoing (over several decades) diet.

Yeah, you added that "ongoing" qualifier after you
endorsed Dukan and apparently then realized that
it starts you out with pure protein and in ketosis. So,
of course you try to weasel out of it. Let me help
you out here. The Dukan diet has 4 phases, non
of which is referred to as "ongoing". They are
attack, cruise, consolidation, stabilization. So,
once again, you don't even know the Dukan
terms.

I do. Would you like them in French - my first language?


You can keep on supporting Atkins, I would be surprised if you didn't, but
if you want to do more than just lose some weight, you really should look
at other low carb options. If you are happier being a fat person in hiding
from his appetite - go for it. I like to both live and enjoy life.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 23:06:27 +1000, Who_me?
wrote:


The only thing that I can gather from that claim is that you are not, nor
ever have been a fit person. Maybe you lost some weight with Atkins, but
that is far as you have gone. It does not support strength or endurance
sports. If it can do real damage to an athlete, then it is extreme, even if
all you do is sit on a couch and worship Atkins.

It does ZERO damage to an athlete, but competitive athletes will
usually want to keep their carb counts a bit higher than a non-athlete
might, especially when training. Depen ding on how their body
responds.

And losing weight (in and of itself) allows one to become more fit,
right? And for many people, low-carb is really the only way for them
to lose weight.

[...]
Funny how in a LC newgroup you have 6 regulars here
that all agree you're full of BS. There is not one person
here that supports or even believes you.

Should I burst in sobs now - or just laugh. (I think I will compromise and
just have a little chuckle.) I wasn't looking for fat people, I was looking
for fit people. There is more than just one vowel difference, but I doubt
that you will ever experience it if you really think that there is no
problem with Atkins.

Countless studies have proven that low-carb diets (including Atkins)
are not only healthy, but better at losing wieght and keeping it off.
That you're not aware of any of them is disturbing.

From bringing up the
old crap about his autopsy weight,

It gets a good reaction - truth seems to hurt some people.

Define truth.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp

I'm going with the hospital's medical records. How 'bout you?

to claiming Atkins
Nutritional products are no longer available. Who should
we believe, you or our eyes:

They haven't been for some years.

http://www.atkins.com/ContactUs.aspx

That is US only, and they are a food retailer, not a diet company according
to their own blurb.

So what?

They're available in Latin America, UK, Canada, Norway, Sweden,
Australia, The Netherlands, New Zealand, The Middle East, and India.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=80046042556

And they're probably available in France, too.

This is the internet, an international forum. Are you so naive that you
don't realise that? Atkins was world wide until it folded. It has NOT come
back anywhere that I visit.

Don't get out much, EH?

[...]
“France’s National Agency for Food, Environmental and Work Health
Safety pointed out the Dukan Diet as one of 15 imbalanced and
potentially risky diets. The British Dietetic Association, has also
listed the Dukan Diet as one of the five worst diets of 2011,” she
said.

By eliminating key foods from your diet, Zuckerbrot said Dukan’s plan
can create a nutrition deficiency as well as high cholesterol and even
kidney problems."

Yet is is less severe than Atkins - if you actually read the book and not
rely on some one who is probably as non-knowledgeable as yourself.

Please explain in detail how and why you think the Dukan diet is "less
severe" than Atkins.


If you know so much, then why did you claim that Atkins
is dangerous and will ruin your kidneys while Dukan
will not? We're still waiting for the answer to that one.

You learn what Dukan really is - read the book instead of parroting
inaccurate rubbish and you won't need to have soemone else answer for you.

You're supoosedly the Dukan expert. The burden's on you.

Put up or shut up.

[...]
Do you realize how stupid you are? LC reached a
fad status briefly about 10 years ago. When things
returned to normal there was less demand
for all kinds of LC products from virtually every company
that made them. It was NOT Atkins specific.

Crap. Other low carb diet took up the slack - diets that are still popular
and supported. The fad was Atkins and apparently you are still being
"faddish", well after most people walked away.

The Paleo, Primal, Caveman, etc. diets are essentially the Atkins
diet, and are the new "fad."

[...]
Yeah, you added that "ongoing" qualifier after you
endorsed Dukan and apparently then realized that
it starts you out with pure protein and in ketosis. So,
of course you try to weasel out of it. Let me help
you out here. The Dukan diet has 4 phases, non
of which is referred to as "ongoing". They are
attack, cruise, consolidation, stabilization. So,
once again, you don't even know the Dukan
terms.

I do. Would you like them in French - my first language?

So...you're French, EH? Well, that explains it.

You can keep on supporting Atkins, I would be surprised if you didn't, but
if you want to do more than just lose some weight, you really should look
at other low carb options. If you are happier being a fat person in hiding
from his appetite - go for it. I like to both live and enjoy life.

I support the low-carb way of eating, including Atkins.

I support people finding their own best way of eating, one that helps
them lose weight, become healthy and fit, and one that they can
maintain.

For me, that's Atkins, Paleo, Primal or whatever else you want to call
it. Hell, Dukan's probably pretty good, too. Whatever floats your
boat!

--
Dogman