Low Carb (Paleo) Half Marathon Report

Good work, Ig.

I have some questions for you.

1) are you going to do any more experiments of this type?

2) At what percentage of maximum heart rate did you run? What were your
average and max heart rates during your run?

3) Did you let your speed vary at all? You said you ran steadily, is
guessing no.

4) What was your perceived level of difficulty (or exertion) during your
run? Did it ever feel hard or did it always feel easy?

Ignoramus12690 wrote:
|| I ran a half marathon today, in Quad Cities. Some highlights:
||
|| - next to no carbs eaten yesterday and today (due to eating no
|| vegs to avoid "runners trots" that I had on my previous extended
|| run)
|| - No Gatorade
|| - No bonking
|| - Ran without stopping even for a second
|| - 2:08:50 running time
|| - Feeling very good afterwards
||
|| The weather was absolutely fabulous, fresh and sunny. The road was
|| mostly flat, with some long but very gentle hills and bridges. Lots
|| of
|| music bands, kids, "Go daddy go" signs etc. One woman was running
|| with
|| a child carriage designed for running, with a kid in it, in fact
|| running quite well despite that handicap! She also ran half
|| marathon. Everyone was in a great mood. A very enjoyable setting.
||
|| The purpose of my run was to perform an experiment and see how well
|| I
|| could perform running a serious (for me) distance of 13.02
|| miles without eating carbs. I tried to be conservative and
|| basically jogged through the run at 9+ minutes per mile (closer to
|| 10 but below 10). I
|| do not think that I could run it substantially faster though,
|| perhaps
|| I could gain 4 or so minutes, had I known better how to distribute
|| my efforts.
||
|| The result of this experiment is that LC did not make me "bonk". In
|| fact, I ran steadily throughout. Not terribly fast at 9+mpm, but, I
|| think, being a little better or close to the median running time is
|| not bad for the first timer with little relevant training. Since I
|| ate
|| low carb for quite a while, it is my supposition that for the most
|| part, I ran using fat as fuel.
||
|| After the run, I measured by blood glucose. My blood sugar was 59
|| plasma calibrated, which is not terribly far from my normal level
|| these days (70). I was functioning fine at that level, went to a farm
|| supply store in that town and bought stuff. I felt fine and was in a
|| great mood. Then I drove home, picking up 13 90 lbs concrete patio
|| blocks at menards. The point of this is that I was not, by any means,
|| exhausted and still am not exhausted.
||
|| I replenished my energy reserves with cooked bacon (smoked pork
|| belly), and nuts. No carbs or fruits after the run, again, somewhat
|| for experimental purposes as my diet does actually allow fruits. I
|| just did not eat them lately due to wanting to take it slow to see if
|| the diet works in its conservative form, without fruits. Maybe, if by
|| the end of OCtober I do not start regaining, I will allow myself to
|| eat
|| some fruits. Picked a bag's worth of free fruits and cookies for my
|| wife, but have not eaten any yet. Will probably eat some later today,
|| as the experiment is basically over.
||
|| What's most amazing is that my knees are basically fine and I could
|| easily run more today. Before, I would be all in pain, having hard
|| times going upstairs or the 3rd story of our house, whereas today it
|| was not the case.
||
|| My conclusions.
||
|| 1. Saying that I cannot run an extended distance without carbs is
|| baloney. Even though I am not, by any means, a highly trained
|| athlete.
||
|| 2. I would like to, tentatively, train for next year's Chicago
|| Marathon and try to run under 4 hours. That's a major commitment of
|| time, as I realize -- a marathon is a whole different animal -- so
|| perhaps I will abandon that idea.
||
|| 3. I definitely function better on a high fat diet. For a
|| non-athletic-freak, recreationally running dufus like me, LC helped
|| me
|| to run the whole thing steadily. And my knees are also better.
||
|| 4. Female runners are beautiful regardless of age.
||
|| 5. While the max speed on LC, for a great athlete, may be not better
|| than with carbs, endurance for the more average person is pretty
|| unbeatable. I am still full of energy and have big landscaping plans
|| and generator repair plans for tonight. I ran for 2 hours many years
|| before, and was basically disabled for a few days due to knee pain,
|| and was wasted for that day. Now, I am okay -- feeling the effects,
|| but basically functioning well.
||
|| 6. training runs on LC, if we accept that my glycogen stores are low,
|| are using fat as fuel from the beginning. Ie, I run for 30 minutes,
|| probably mostly using fat as fuel. (it is purely a speculation and I
|| want to read more articles about this). So, I am training my fat
|| oxidation energy system at every training run. A carb eater runs on
|| carbs first, and does not train the fat oxidation system. So, once he
|| runs out of carbs, he bonks since the fat oxidation system is not
|| trained. That's instead of continuing running, but more slowly.
||
|| Again, this is a pure wild assed speculation, but it makes some sense
|| to me. I will read up on it. The implication of this speculation is
|| that I could train for good performance on long runs, while running
|| shorter traiing runs, as long as I eat LC.
||
|| A very trained athlete eating carbs, would, of course, not bonk
|| either. But I am not one.
||
|| 7. I had no "electrolyte" issues. I drank a tiny bit of water with
|| "lite salt" before the run, and drank water provided at the tables.
|| Thanks to all who suggested to take this issue lightly.
||
|| 8. I recommend to low carbers to run and ignore suggestions that
|| running using fat as fuel is going to destroy them. (ask your doctor,
|| YMMV, etc)
||
|| I want to thank all rec.running participants who gave me their
|| suggestions.
||
|| What a great day!
||
|| i

On 2004-09-26, Ignoramus12690 wrote:

1. Saying that I cannot run an extended distance without carbs is
baloney. Even though I am not, by any means, a highly trained athlete.

Sure. No-one said it was impossible, many said it was dumb.

You can also weight-train on a low protein diet. You could do the workouts.
Sure it probably wouldn't be very effective, you'd probably lift less than
a 60 year old woman, much like you ran a time comparable to the midpack 60-65
runners at the local races I compete in.

I'm not knocking your accomplishment, but it doesn't make a very compelling
case for the effectiveness of low carb diets.

6. training runs on LC, if we accept that my glycogen stores are low,
are using fat as fuel from the beginning. Ie, I run for 30 minutes,
probably mostly using fat as fuel. (it is purely a speculation and I
want to read more articles about this). So, I am training my fat
oxidation energy system at every training run. A carb eater runs on
carbs first, and does not train the fat oxidation system. So, once he
runs out of carbs, he bonks since the fat oxidation system is not
trained. That's instead of continuing running, but more slowly.

Again, this is a pure wild assed speculation, but it makes some sense
to me.

It also happens to be erroneous.

I will read up on it.

Good idea.

The implication of this speculation is
that I could train for good performance on long runs, while running
shorter traiing runs, as long as I eat LC.

You can do that anyway, but you still need some long runs. There is more
to long runs than glycogen depletion. If that's all there was to it, no-one
would do long runs, they'd just run on an empty stomach. Doing a 5 miler on
an empty stomach (I often do this) is not a substitute for a 20 miler.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Ignoramus12690" wrote in message
...
Donovan, you seem to know about running training, although at times we
disagreed. How much time/miles per month do I need to run, in order to
run a sub-4 hour marathon, given my present condition. For simplicity,
assume a more typical runner's diet.

i

Here's a pretty good link on Marathon training ..... I used a similar
article from this site as a beginning runner to go from 0 to 10k:

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...0-6946,00.html


--
John V.
LC - on and off, mostly on lately, as of 1/2/04
262/250/175

"Ignoramus12690" wrote in message
...
Donovan, you seem to know about running training, although at times we
disagreed. How much time/miles per month do I need to run, in order to
run a sub-4 hour marathon, given my present condition. For simplicity,
assume a more typical runner's diet.

i

Here's a pretty good link on Marathon training ..... I used a similar
article from this site as a beginning runner to go from 0 to 10k:

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...0-6946,00.html


--
John V.
LC - on and off, mostly on lately, as of 1/2/04
262/250/175

It isn't dumb when evaluated in terms of Ig's goals which are not your
goals.

In ,
Donovan Rebbechi stated
|
| Sure. No-one said it was impossible, many said it was dumb.
|

It isn't dumb when evaluated in terms of Ig's goals which are not your
goals.

In ,
Donovan Rebbechi stated
|
| Sure. No-one said it was impossible, many said it was dumb.
|

Only unrelated crossposts are improper. The post was related to all three
groups.

"Lee Rodgers" wrote in message
...
Since you are too much of an ignoramus to stop crossposting the only
recourse is the killfile. CYA wouldn't wanna ... oh nevermind.
Lee Rodgers
Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org
CHAT http://www.lowcarb.org/parachat.html
Low-Carb Connoisseur http://www.low-carb.com

On 2004-09-27, Ignoramus12690 wrote:
Donovan, you seem to know about running training, although at times we
disagreed. How much time/miles per month do I need to run, in order to
run a sub-4 hour marathon, given my present condition. For simplicity,
assume a more typical runner's diet.

From what I recall of your times, you have the ability to run a sub 4. A
4 hour marathon is "comparable" on WAVA tables to a 24:30 5k. A reasonable
training volume would bring your 5k times well below that.

The point of going through that exercise is that it demonstrates that you
have the speed for a sub 4 marathon (I'd be less optimistic if you wanted a
sub 3 in the near future)

The main thing a basic marathon training program involves is just getting
in a few good long runs (about 20 miles), everything else is built around
that. So this means that you're going to have a peak weekly milage of around
40 miles. The closer you are to this prior to commencement of the program,
the better. For example, a 40 mile peak off a consistent base of 30 is
reasonable. Since you've got a time goal, there is a place for speed work
in your program, but keep in mind that it is the long runs that are of
primary importance.

I'd recommend some reading on this -- take a look at Bob Glover's "Competitive
Runners Handbook". I'd recommend the "basic competitors" marathon program
from that book.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

On 2004-09-27, Ignoramus12690 wrote:
Donovan, you seem to know about running training, although at times we
disagreed. How much time/miles per month do I need to run, in order to
run a sub-4 hour marathon, given my present condition. For simplicity,
assume a more typical runner's diet.

From what I recall of your times, you have the ability to run a sub 4. A
4 hour marathon is "comparable" on WAVA tables to a 24:30 5k. A reasonable
training volume would bring your 5k times well below that.

The point of going through that exercise is that it demonstrates that you
have the speed for a sub 4 marathon (I'd be less optimistic if you wanted a
sub 3 in the near future)

The main thing a basic marathon training program involves is just getting
in a few good long runs (about 20 miles), everything else is built around
that. So this means that you're going to have a peak weekly milage of around
40 miles. The closer you are to this prior to commencement of the program,
the better. For example, a 40 mile peak off a consistent base of 30 is
reasonable. Since you've got a time goal, there is a place for speed work
in your program, but keep in mind that it is the long runs that are of
primary importance.

I'd recommend some reading on this -- take a look at Bob Glover's "Competitive
Runners Handbook". I'd recommend the "basic competitors" marathon program
from that book.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

On 2004-09-27, FOB wrote:
It isn't dumb when evaluated in terms of Ig's goals which are not your
goals.

Sure, it's no more dumb than weight training and entering a powerlifting
competition on a low protein diet or a very low calorie diet.

It also strikes me as a tad disingenious that he appears to think he's proven
something -- he has indeed proven that you can run very slowly (comparable to
the older senior masters women in his case) on a low carb diet. But this
isn't news for us.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/