Low carb and endurance running -- results of my experiment

In article , Doug Freese
writes
Sprinters burn solid glycogen while endurance folks like myself that run
for 20+ hours burn mostly fat. Endurance folks train their bodies via
the long run and speed work to enhance burning fat as opposed to
glycogen so you don't bonk.

This is really interesting, and I never heard it put just like this
before.

Any clue about how far you go before you are burning mainly fat, or is
that, too, individual?

And (dumb question, doubtless) if endurance athletes burn fat, why do
they need carbs in order not to bonk in the UK, bonk means you have
lots of - er - energy...?

Bear with me; I've never been in a club and I only know what Runners'
World chooses to tell me.
.

--
Jane Lumley

In article , Doug Freese
writes
Sprinters burn solid glycogen while endurance folks like myself that run
for 20+ hours burn mostly fat. Endurance folks train their bodies via
the long run and speed work to enhance burning fat as opposed to
glycogen so you don't bonk.

This is really interesting, and I never heard it put just like this
before.

Any clue about how far you go before you are burning mainly fat, or is
that, too, individual?

And (dumb question, doubtless) if endurance athletes burn fat, why do
they need carbs in order not to bonk in the UK, bonk means you have
lots of - er - energy...?

Bear with me; I've never been in a club and I only know what Runners'
World chooses to tell me.
.

--
Jane Lumley

On 22 Sep 2004 13:59:17 GMT, Ignoramus13667
wrote:


As for honey, you could imagine that for obvious reasons, it could not
be a mainstay of hunter gatherers' nutrition.

i

"The social value of honey is incalculable. The bee and honey are to
the hunter-gatherer what a large stock and milk are to the herdsman.
Even if honey has never constituted more than one-fifth of their diet,
it is the substance which binds the total social life of
hunter-gatherers together in different ways. It is the gift given at
marriage, the pre-eminent element in ritual and a form of social
communication through the process of exchange. That is also the reason
why certain attempts by people and organizations under the flag to
“help”, who start to buy all the honey and market it, is actually the
very way to destroy the culture of these people."

from http://www.ogiek.org/indepth/in-depth-hunt-gaterer.htm

Dunno how you define "a mainstay", but 20% of the diet sounds
significant to me.

Ellis

On 22 Sep 2004 13:59:17 GMT, Ignoramus13667
wrote:


As for honey, you could imagine that for obvious reasons, it could not
be a mainstay of hunter gatherers' nutrition.

i

"The social value of honey is incalculable. The bee and honey are to
the hunter-gatherer what a large stock and milk are to the herdsman.
Even if honey has never constituted more than one-fifth of their diet,
it is the substance which binds the total social life of
hunter-gatherers together in different ways. It is the gift given at
marriage, the pre-eminent element in ritual and a form of social
communication through the process of exchange. That is also the reason
why certain attempts by people and organizations under the flag to
“help”, who start to buy all the honey and market it, is actually the
very way to destroy the culture of these people."

from http://www.ogiek.org/indepth/in-depth-hunt-gaterer.htm

Dunno how you define "a mainstay", but 20% of the diet sounds
significant to me.

Ellis

Jane Lumley wrote in message ...
In article 4IV3d.12439$%42.4412@trndny08, Tony
writes
The body can also be trained to burn fats better by doing extremely long
distance at low intensity.

How long? Ultra-type length? And what intensity? People keep
blathering about a fat-burning zone between 120 and 140HB, but I imagine
you mean something more complex.

As Doug stated elsewhere, the body is burning fat and glycogen (and protien
at a very slow rate) all the time. As exercise intensity increases the
glycogen/fat burning ratio goes up. For each person the scale will be
different. Some think that the same amount of fat is being burned even as
glycogen is called upon as the intensity goes up. I think that the energy
pathway shifts at higher intensities and that the actual fat-burn rate
decreases as glycogen is more utilized.

For Lance Armstrong, according to his coach, the intensity to train the
fat-burning system is about 110 to 120 BPM, on rides of 6 hours+. Like
anything else, the more time you practice at something the more the effect.

For runners, the long run (2 hours+) will do many things, including
enhancing your fat burning potential for endurance exercise, and, if you eat
while running, it will train your body to metabolize carbs and utilize them
for fuel when exercising, which is a slightly different energy pathway than
utilizing muscle glycogen. Most ultra runners do long runs of over 5 hours.


What you experienced probably was the muscles
getting what they wanted and needed to perform better - and that's why
your
speed increased. Carbs have also been shown to enhance muscle recovery
after exercise.

Yes, I hear this too. Never works for me. If anything my muscle ache
was worse after a week in NYC in which I ran v long, but had a carby
breakfast afterwards. In the same way, I don't benefit from running in
Proper Shoes. I'm just odd, I guess. Sigh. And I certainly couldn't
run at tempo for six hours .

A carby breakfast? What do you have to compare it to? Carbs must be taken
in a very pure form immediately after exercise - after 30 mins the window of
insulin sensitivity for the muscles is already beginning to close. Also,
you shouldn't eat fat or much protien during that window, but high GI carbs.


I'm keen to hear more about your TKD programme. I'm not wedded to VERY
lowcarbing, Atkins-style, but I AM keen to avoid junk carbs - sugar and
white bread, including high-glycemic fruit. I sit at your feet.


LoL. If you study the metabolic cycle of exercising, there is a place for
some of those 'junk' carbs in your diet, albeit not the fatty ones. As said
before, if taken immediately after exercise the body sucks them up and deals
with them very well. There isn't as much info out there on the TKD
(Targeted Ketogenic Diet). It's origins are in bodybuilding and it seems to
have been born out of the CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet).

Basically on TKD, you have a maintenance type of diet that you eat all the
time, for pure TKDer's, that would probably be low-carb to aim for the
ketogenic effect - kicking the body into fat-burning mode where it produces
ketones. Then, for exercise, you add more carbs specifically around the
exercise session, which can be before, during and after exercise.

The type of exercise would dictate the amount of extra carbs you eat for
exercise, and when. For me, this means that I always take simple carbs
right after exercise to help in recovery and to keep the glycogen stores up.
You have to play with the amounts. If I'm bike riding an hour or more, I
take a carb sports drink, and I take simple carbs after. For running, I
usually just take carbs after. For run's of over about 90 mins I take
bottles of sports drink, and for runs over 3 hours I also take gels in
addition to sports drink.

During my normal diet, I don't aim for ketosis anymore, so I'm not really on
TKD, though in some respects my diet appears TKD because it follows the
exercise cycle. Normally I just eat more complex carbs instead of simple
ones, as I save these for right after exercise when the body likes them
best.

Here's an article that outlines some of it. You can google for more.
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=88

- Tony

--
Jane Lumley

Jane Lumley wrote in message ...
In article 4IV3d.12439$%42.4412@trndny08, Tony
writes
The body can also be trained to burn fats better by doing extremely long
distance at low intensity.

How long? Ultra-type length? And what intensity? People keep
blathering about a fat-burning zone between 120 and 140HB, but I imagine
you mean something more complex.

As Doug stated elsewhere, the body is burning fat and glycogen (and protien
at a very slow rate) all the time. As exercise intensity increases the
glycogen/fat burning ratio goes up. For each person the scale will be
different. Some think that the same amount of fat is being burned even as
glycogen is called upon as the intensity goes up. I think that the energy
pathway shifts at higher intensities and that the actual fat-burn rate
decreases as glycogen is more utilized.

For Lance Armstrong, according to his coach, the intensity to train the
fat-burning system is about 110 to 120 BPM, on rides of 6 hours+. Like
anything else, the more time you practice at something the more the effect.

For runners, the long run (2 hours+) will do many things, including
enhancing your fat burning potential for endurance exercise, and, if you eat
while running, it will train your body to metabolize carbs and utilize them
for fuel when exercising, which is a slightly different energy pathway than
utilizing muscle glycogen. Most ultra runners do long runs of over 5 hours.


What you experienced probably was the muscles
getting what they wanted and needed to perform better - and that's why
your
speed increased. Carbs have also been shown to enhance muscle recovery
after exercise.

Yes, I hear this too. Never works for me. If anything my muscle ache
was worse after a week in NYC in which I ran v long, but had a carby
breakfast afterwards. In the same way, I don't benefit from running in
Proper Shoes. I'm just odd, I guess. Sigh. And I certainly couldn't
run at tempo for six hours .

A carby breakfast? What do you have to compare it to? Carbs must be taken
in a very pure form immediately after exercise - after 30 mins the window of
insulin sensitivity for the muscles is already beginning to close. Also,
you shouldn't eat fat or much protien during that window, but high GI carbs.


I'm keen to hear more about your TKD programme. I'm not wedded to VERY
lowcarbing, Atkins-style, but I AM keen to avoid junk carbs - sugar and
white bread, including high-glycemic fruit. I sit at your feet.


LoL. If you study the metabolic cycle of exercising, there is a place for
some of those 'junk' carbs in your diet, albeit not the fatty ones. As said
before, if taken immediately after exercise the body sucks them up and deals
with them very well. There isn't as much info out there on the TKD
(Targeted Ketogenic Diet). It's origins are in bodybuilding and it seems to
have been born out of the CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet).

Basically on TKD, you have a maintenance type of diet that you eat all the
time, for pure TKDer's, that would probably be low-carb to aim for the
ketogenic effect - kicking the body into fat-burning mode where it produces
ketones. Then, for exercise, you add more carbs specifically around the
exercise session, which can be before, during and after exercise.

The type of exercise would dictate the amount of extra carbs you eat for
exercise, and when. For me, this means that I always take simple carbs
right after exercise to help in recovery and to keep the glycogen stores up.
You have to play with the amounts. If I'm bike riding an hour or more, I
take a carb sports drink, and I take simple carbs after. For running, I
usually just take carbs after. For run's of over about 90 mins I take
bottles of sports drink, and for runs over 3 hours I also take gels in
addition to sports drink.

During my normal diet, I don't aim for ketosis anymore, so I'm not really on
TKD, though in some respects my diet appears TKD because it follows the
exercise cycle. Normally I just eat more complex carbs instead of simple
ones, as I save these for right after exercise when the body likes them
best.

Here's an article that outlines some of it. You can google for more.
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=88

- Tony

--
Jane Lumley

Jane Lumley wrote in message ...
In article 4IV3d.12439$%42.4412@trndny08, Tony
writes
The body can also be trained to burn fats better by doing extremely long
distance at low intensity.

How long? Ultra-type length? And what intensity? People keep
blathering about a fat-burning zone between 120 and 140HB, but I imagine
you mean something more complex.

As Doug stated elsewhere, the body is burning fat and glycogen (and protien
at a very slow rate) all the time. As exercise intensity increases the
glycogen/fat burning ratio goes up. For each person the scale will be
different. Some think that the same amount of fat is being burned even as
glycogen is called upon as the intensity goes up. I think that the energy
pathway shifts at higher intensities and that the actual fat-burn rate
decreases as glycogen is more utilized.

For Lance Armstrong, according to his coach, the intensity to train the
fat-burning system is about 110 to 120 BPM, on rides of 6 hours+. Like
anything else, the more time you practice at something the more the effect.

For runners, the long run (2 hours+) will do many things, including
enhancing your fat burning potential for endurance exercise, and, if you eat
while running, it will train your body to metabolize carbs and utilize them
for fuel when exercising, which is a slightly different energy pathway than
utilizing muscle glycogen. Most ultra runners do long runs of over 5 hours.


What you experienced probably was the muscles
getting what they wanted and needed to perform better - and that's why
your
speed increased. Carbs have also been shown to enhance muscle recovery
after exercise.

Yes, I hear this too. Never works for me. If anything my muscle ache
was worse after a week in NYC in which I ran v long, but had a carby
breakfast afterwards. In the same way, I don't benefit from running in
Proper Shoes. I'm just odd, I guess. Sigh. And I certainly couldn't
run at tempo for six hours .

A carby breakfast? What do you have to compare it to? Carbs must be taken
in a very pure form immediately after exercise - after 30 mins the window of
insulin sensitivity for the muscles is already beginning to close. Also,
you shouldn't eat fat or much protien during that window, but high GI carbs.


I'm keen to hear more about your TKD programme. I'm not wedded to VERY
lowcarbing, Atkins-style, but I AM keen to avoid junk carbs - sugar and
white bread, including high-glycemic fruit. I sit at your feet.


LoL. If you study the metabolic cycle of exercising, there is a place for
some of those 'junk' carbs in your diet, albeit not the fatty ones. As said
before, if taken immediately after exercise the body sucks them up and deals
with them very well. There isn't as much info out there on the TKD
(Targeted Ketogenic Diet). It's origins are in bodybuilding and it seems to
have been born out of the CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet).

Basically on TKD, you have a maintenance type of diet that you eat all the
time, for pure TKDer's, that would probably be low-carb to aim for the
ketogenic effect - kicking the body into fat-burning mode where it produces
ketones. Then, for exercise, you add more carbs specifically around the
exercise session, which can be before, during and after exercise.

The type of exercise would dictate the amount of extra carbs you eat for
exercise, and when. For me, this means that I always take simple carbs
right after exercise to help in recovery and to keep the glycogen stores up.
You have to play with the amounts. If I'm bike riding an hour or more, I
take a carb sports drink, and I take simple carbs after. For running, I
usually just take carbs after. For run's of over about 90 mins I take
bottles of sports drink, and for runs over 3 hours I also take gels in
addition to sports drink.

During my normal diet, I don't aim for ketosis anymore, so I'm not really on
TKD, though in some respects my diet appears TKD because it follows the
exercise cycle. Normally I just eat more complex carbs instead of simple
ones, as I save these for right after exercise when the body likes them
best.

Here's an article that outlines some of it. You can google for more.
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=88

- Tony

--
Jane Lumley

Jane Lumley wrote in message ...
In article hE%2d.597$Ec4.193@trndny04, Tony
writes
If you can run a marathon in less than four hours with severely restricted
carbs - and feel good at the end - then it would show that you're an
individual who can run sustained distances while burning fat almost
exclusively as fuel. It would show nothing about what others are capable
of
doing; only that you're one who can. There are great differences in
individual's metabolisms, perhaps related to blood type and/or other
variations in body type, perhaps not; but no diet works equally well for
all
individuals.

You know, I'm now wondering if those who can do this are also those who
store fat easily and thus develop weight problems in the first place.
--
Jane Lumley

Interesting question. I think it has alot to do with muscle fibre types as
well. Slow twitch muscles would seem to be more adapted to burning fat than
faster twitch muslces.

- Tony

Jane Lumley wrote in message ...
In article hE%2d.597$Ec4.193@trndny04, Tony
writes
If you can run a marathon in less than four hours with severely restricted
carbs - and feel good at the end - then it would show that you're an
individual who can run sustained distances while burning fat almost
exclusively as fuel. It would show nothing about what others are capable
of
doing; only that you're one who can. There are great differences in
individual's metabolisms, perhaps related to blood type and/or other
variations in body type, perhaps not; but no diet works equally well for
all
individuals.

You know, I'm now wondering if those who can do this are also those who
store fat easily and thus develop weight problems in the first place.
--
Jane Lumley

Interesting question. I think it has alot to do with muscle fibre types as
well. Slow twitch muscles would seem to be more adapted to burning fat than
faster twitch muslces.

- Tony

Ignoramus13667 wrote:


Well, if you assume that we have not morphed into something entirely
different during the last million years (or even 100,000 years), then,
please, note that breads, pastas, and generally grains were not
available 100,000 years ago in any measurable quantity,
pre-agriculture.


But what about fresh fruits and vegetables, just for starters.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog