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#51
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
M.W.Smith wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote: :: ::: M.W.Smith wrote: ::::: Roger Zoul wrote: ::::: :::::: M.W.Smith wrote: :::::::: Ron Ritzman wrote: ::::::::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean ::::::::: meats, flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet ::::::::: (limited ::::::::: budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a ::::::::: half can of ::::::::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low ::::::::: carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of ::::::::: beef or ::::::::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green ::::::::: vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, ::::::::: and bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those ::::::::: things.) :::::::: :::::::: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem :::::::: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat :::::::: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings :::::::: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet :::::::: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger :::::::: and cravings. :::::: :::::: Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats. ::::: ::::: Not for me. Fiber is filling, but the full feeling doesn't ::::: eliminate hunger for me. Protein does reduce hunger for me, ::::: but not as efficiently as fat. ::: ::: Are you referring to simply sat fats? One can easily add in fats ::: to protein and fiber rich foods. I'm saying that one doens't need ::: to pig out on sat fats to do low-carb. :: :: We're never talking about pigging out. :: Getting an high precentage of calories from sat fat can be thought of as pigging out on sat fats even if your total calorie intake is sufficient to promote weight loss. ::::::::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, ::::::::: regardless ::::::::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. ::::::::: So does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins ::::::::: diet, (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the ::::::::: dieter is exercising) the dieter is often better off then he ::::::::: was on his old diet sitting in his easy chair his only ::::::::: exercise being Budweiser curls and the 5 yard commercial ::::::::: break potty dash. :::::::: :::::::: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely :::::::: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in :::::::: the diet. :::::: :::::: Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from being :::::: excessive. ::::: ::::: For most people, exercise increases calorie consumption. ::: ::: Interesting. I've found this to be the case only when starting an ::: exercise program after not doing any over a period of several ::: months. And espeically so for weight training. For me, adapting to ::: a regular exercise program helps me control eating. Not exercising ::: seems to bring on increased calorie consumption for me. :: :: Try swimming 2k in the morning before work. :: So are you saying exericse increases calorie consumption or swimming does? |
#52
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:09:04 +0100, "M.W.Smith"
wrote: Try swimming 2k in the morning before work. Not a chance. I keep hitting my head on the bathtub. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#53
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:49 +0100, "M.W.Smith"
wrote: What is the reason for high water consumption? Flushing waste from everywhere in the body as efficiently and quickly as possible. Is waste flushed by water or by circulatory elements? Is this high water consumption to offset water loss in ketosis or water loss in Atkins at all times of the diet? Water loss during exercise. Hm. How much water do you consume daily? It is your opinion, then, that Atkins, or perhaps any diet (including the 2PDiet) would be, or could be, counterproductive to long life if not combined with an appropriate exercise program? Too strong a statement. I think it has been shown that low-fat diets reduce cancer and heart disease. I'm saying that to get the same disease statistics on low-carb, high-fat diets, the appropriate exercise program must accompany the diet. If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that if you take on Atkins and eat high sat fats, you will accelerate the probability of heart disease. In order to balance this negative, you have to "undo the bad" so to speak. Is that correct? Is it also correct, in your thinking, that a low sat fat diet (or is it a low all fat diet) combined with the same exercise program would be the best of all worlds? And if that is the case, should that program leaned to the aerobic or anaerobic ? If by anaerobic you mean weightlifting, then it should lean heavily toward aerobic. ok If by anaerobic you mean all kinds of HIIT, then whatever suits you. ok although many HIIT programs are quite aerobic. Is your answer then that the exercise program should stress aerobic qualities first? http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#54
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:14:44 -0500, Ron Ritzman
wrote: What is the reason for high water consumption? Don't you know? Diet books are required to recommend 8 glasses of dihydrogen monoxide. It's some sort of federal law or something Oh, yeah, that. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#55
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On 28 Oct 2003 13:09:03 GMT, ospam (Susan ) wrote:
One must quit smoking, begin meditating and socializing and exercise like mad to get benefit from the Ornish plan. What? http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#56
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Matti Narkia wrote:
attempts to distance oneself from Atkin's dieting snipped What is your agenda, Matti? -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ |
#57
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
cheesegator wrote:
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message ... SNIP They did not go against Dr. Atkins' party line. He had 30 yrs to conduct the *safety* studies. Here's the problem: LC advocates have been viewed as frauds by your ilk for decades. That wasn't Dr. Atkins excuse. Until very recently, any study they conducted (or partially funded) was dismissed out of hand by the keepers of the orthodoxy-- Pray tell who are these keepers? who seldom took the time to read them. These studies are also expensive to undertake. Actually they are not as expensive as drug trials but they do take time. Why sink lots of $$$$ into a study whose results the "establishment" stubbornly refuses to accept. How do you know until you do the study? "Knowing" that the earth was flat, your kind saw no need to conduct studies to bear out what the LC advocates had been claiming. Why haven't the LC advocates conducted the studies over the past 30 years? I have some great recipes for all the egg on your collective faces. Those great recipes are part of the overeating problem. 1. Studies conducted by or funded by LC advocates/researchers didn't count. They don't count because they weren't done. 2. The medical establishment, although biased against LC diets, chose not to conduct any major studies of the issue. Dr. Atkins was part of the medical establishment. Those poor *******s who did undertake small trials were shouted down any time the elders didn't like their results. Go ahead and cite those trials that were censored. What was a guaranteed way for an MD to lose credibility from 1960 to 1990? Conduct a legitimate study of the LC phenom. Which MD lost credibility in this manner? If the results support existing doctrine . . . "Ha--told you so". If the results contradict existing doctrine . . . "Well, er, it um was er a small sample. "One er shouldn't um extrapolate from these limited results. Er, larger studies are warranted . . ." {Obviously these larger studies never happened. Who wants to **** away one's credibility (if not livelihood) by questioning the Holy Canon.} I'm surprised a highly educated man like you failed to see the "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" mentality in your last comment . . . or perhaps you did. I simply write truthfully. You are welcome to review Dr. Atkins' published comments on this topic to confirm what I have written. -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ |
#58
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:32:35 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote: Matti Narkia wrote: attempts to distance oneself from Atkin's dieting snipped If you had bothered to read my messages carefully, you'd noticed that I have repeatedly stated that (unlike Atkins?) I favor getting the potential extra fat from monounsaturated and omega-3 fatty acids. On the other hand most of the recent LC diet trials have been done with Atkins' or very similar diet, so when assessing these diets one has to refer to these diets. The results with these diets have been surprisingly good _despite_ some aspects in them which IMHO could be improved. What is your agenda, Matti? To find the truth. What's yours? To preserve the current dogma no matter what? -- Matti Narkia |
#59
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Ron Ritzman wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:06:43 GMT, Matti Narkia wrote: In one of his usenet messages Lyle McDonald, the author the book _The Ketogenic Diet_ (http://www.theketogenicdiet.com/), emphasizes that one shouldn't equate Atkins' diet with a low-carb/ketogenic diet, and that low-carb/ketogenic diet can be made a lot healthier than Atkins' diet. The link to the message is http://groups.google.fi/groups?selm=3EBDD62B.8E580569%40grandecomIMRETARDE D.net (http://tinyurl.com/so0e) And Lyle is usually right Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a half can of Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of beef or pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those things.) Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, regardless of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is exercising) the dieter is often better off then he was on his old diet sitting in his easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser curls and the 5 yard commercial break potty dash. -- Ron Ritzman http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart Smart people can figure out my email address Does Lyle ever address the concerns about hyperketonemia itself? -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ |
#60
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
"M.W.Smith" wrote:
Ron Ritzman wrote: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a half can of Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of beef or pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those things.) However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. Correct. The high fat foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings that are most dieters' downfall. Ime, after being reassured that hunger and cravings are not in themselves harmful, the complexity/restrictions of the "diet" is what leads to the downfall. For these people, the diet you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger and cravings. See above. Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, regardless of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is exercising) the dieter is often better off then he was on his old diet sitting in his easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser curls and the 5 yard commercial break potty dash. I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in the diet. Exercise likely increases the level of hyperketonemia in folks on ketogenic LC diets. Instead of nullification there may be amplification. -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ |
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