If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#61
|
|||
|
|||
Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:43:15 GMT in article
Matti Narkia wrote: On the other hand most of the recent LC diet trials have been done with Atkins' or very similar diet, so when assessing these diets one has to refer to these diets. Sorry about unintended circular expression. My intension was to say: On the other hand most of the recent LC diet trials have been done with Atkins' or very similar diet, so when assessing these _studies_ one has to refer to these diets. -- Matti Narkia |
#62
|
|||
|
|||
Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Roger Zoul wrote:
M.W.Smith wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: :: ::: M.W.Smith wrote: ::::: Ron Ritzman wrote: :::::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, :::::: flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited :::::: budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a :::::: half can of :::::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low :::::: carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of :::::: beef or :::::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green :::::: vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and :::::: bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those things.) ::::: ::::: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem ::::: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat ::::: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings ::::: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet ::::: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger ::::: and cravings. ::: ::: Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats. :: :: Not for me. Fiber is filling, but the full feeling doesn't :: eliminate hunger for me. Protein does reduce hunger for me, :: but not as efficiently as fat. Are you referring to simply sat fats? One can easily add in fats to protein and fiber rich foods. I'm saying that one doens't need to pig out on sat fats to do low-carb. :: :::::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, :::::: regardless :::::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So :::::: does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, :::::: (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is :::::: exercising) the dieter is often better off then he was on his old :::::: diet sitting in his easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser :::::: curls and the 5 yard commercial break potty dash. ::::: ::::: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely ::::: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in ::::: the diet. ::: ::: Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from being ::: excessive. :: :: For most people, exercise increases calorie consumption. Interesting. I've found this to be the case only when starting an exercise program after not doing any over a period of several months. And espeically so for weight training. For me, adapting to a regular exercise program helps me control eating. Not exercising seems to bring on increased calorie consumption for me. I guess it is a YMMV kind of thing. It's in the timing of the exercise kind of thing. See the "hints" section of the 2PD approach instructions. -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ |
#63
|
|||
|
|||
Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
"M.W.Smith" wrote:
Roger Zoul wrote: M.W.Smith wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: :: ::: M.W.Smith wrote: ::::: Ron Ritzman wrote: :::::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, :::::: flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited :::::: budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a :::::: half can of :::::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low :::::: carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of :::::: beef or :::::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green :::::: vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and :::::: bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those things.) ::::: ::::: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem ::::: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat ::::: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings ::::: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet ::::: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger ::::: and cravings. ::: ::: Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats. :: :: Not for me. Fiber is filling, but the full feeling doesn't :: eliminate hunger for me. Protein does reduce hunger for me, :: but not as efficiently as fat. Are you referring to simply sat fats? One can easily add in fats to protein and fiber rich foods. I'm saying that one doens't need to pig out on sat fats to do low-carb. We're never talking about pigging out. :::::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, :::::: regardless :::::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So :::::: does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, :::::: (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is :::::: exercising) the dieter is often better off then he was on his old :::::: diet sitting in his easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser :::::: curls and the 5 yard commercial break potty dash. ::::: ::::: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely ::::: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in ::::: the diet. ::: ::: Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from being ::: excessive. :: :: For most people, exercise increases calorie consumption. Interesting. I've found this to be the case only when starting an exercise program after not doing any over a period of several months. And espeically so for weight training. For me, adapting to a regular exercise program helps me control eating. Not exercising seems to bring on increased calorie consumption for me. Try swimming 2k in the morning before work. Would suggest you try doing the swimming right before dinner. -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ |
#64
|
|||
|
|||
Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Mars at the Mu_n's Edge wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:31:55 -0600, "cheesegator" wrote: Here's the problem: LC advocates have been viewed as frauds by your ilk for decades. Here's your problem. You libelous statements are as important as your Usenet handle. Um... Usenet handle...? From Roose/SUT/arete(fishbone)/Mu...? 1. Studies conducted by or funded by LC advocates/researchers didn't count. 2. The medical establishment, although biased against LC diets, chose not to conduct any major studies of the issue. Yes, Doctor Atkins did refuse to do so, Cheese. Much like you and Chung. Pastorio |
#65
|
|||
|
|||
ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works
On 2003-10-26, Supergoof wrote:
Hence the idiocy of the high-carb diet so commonly prescribed for diabetics. What diet is that? I recently visited my father and my step-mom, who has diabetes. The first thing I noticed is the similarities between her diabetes diet and my Atkins diets. They were virtually identical. We shared recipe notes and eating tips on everything from meats to sugar free foods. I loved her Russel Stover nut clusters and she loved my Carb Safe white chocolate. I got cooking tips on how to cook up killer carnitas and homemade chile sauce. She loved my Johnsonville Beer'n Brats. In fact if she ingests too many carbs (sound familiar?) she has to immediately get on the treadmill to compensate. The only difference between diests I could see was, if she cheated, it kicked her ass. I hope I never have to suffer that. It's why I'm on this diet now. nb |
#66
|
|||
|
|||
ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:14:57 GMT, notbob wrote:
On 2003-10-26, Supergoof wrote: Hence the idiocy of the high-carb diet so commonly prescribed for diabetics. What diet is that? I recently visited my father and my step-mom, who has diabetes. The first thing I noticed is the similarities between her diabetes diet and my Atkins diets. They were virtually identical. We shared recipe notes and eating tips on everything from meats to sugar free foods. I loved her Russel Stover nut clusters and she loved my Carb Safe white chocolate. I got cooking tips on how to cook up killer carnitas and homemade chile sauce. She loved my Johnsonville Beer'n Brats. In fact if she ingests too many carbs (sound familiar?) she has to immediately get on the treadmill to compensate. The only difference between diests I could see was, if she cheated, it kicked her ass. I hope I never have to suffer that. It's why I'm on this diet now. nb Here are some quotes from the American Diabetes Association (see: http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi...25/suppl_1/s50). Note the second and third paragraphs(!). Foods containing carbohydrate from whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and low-fat milk should be included in a healthy diet. As sucrose does not increase glycemia to a greater extent than isocaloric amounts of starch, sucrose and sucrose-containing foods do not need to be restricted by people with diabetes; however, they should be substituted for other carbohydrate sources or, if added, covered with insulin or other glucose-lowering medication. Carbohydrate and monounsaturated fat together should provide 60–70% of energy intake. However, the metabolic profile and need for weight loss should be considered when determining the monounsaturated fat content of the diet. Sucrose and sucrose-containing foods should be eaten in the context of a healthy diet. Less than 10% of energy intake should be derived from saturated fats. Some individuals (i.e., persons with LDL cholesterol 100 mg/dl) may benefit from lowering saturated fat intake to 7% of energy intake. Dietary cholesterol intake should be 300 mg/day. Some individuals (i.e., persons with LDL cholesterol 100 mg/dl) may benefit from lowering dietary cholesterol to 200 mg/ day. -- Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply |
#67
|
|||
|
|||
Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Matti Narkia wrote:
However, my ESP tells me that any positive correlation between Atkins and higher rates of heart problems and cancer problems can probably be nullified if not reversed by strict adherence to daily strenuous exercise and daily high water consumption. In other words, I expect it will be shown that when you do the Atkins diet, you must do the diet component, the exercise component, and the water drinking component, and that the exercise and water components are as important as the diet component. Of course all of those parts are mandatory per the Atkins book to count as being on the plan. So anyone who doesn't isn't on Atkins. Yet lots of folks who aren't on Atkins *claim* they are. I won't be surprised if the studies end up showing that if you're a sloth going in and you remain a sloth, the Atkins diet will increase your chances of dying before your time. Crystal ball time. What say I vote the other way, we wait 50 years, and the one who turns out right dances on the other's grave? Chuckle. In one of his usenet messages Lyle McDonald, the author the book _The Ketogenic Diet_ (http://www.theketogenicdiet.com/), emphasizes that one shouldn't equate Atkins' diet with a low-carb/ketogenic diet Because, after all, Atkins is only ketogenic for 2 of its 4 phases. So it isn't a ketogenic diet for even a majority of its time. It is only ketogenic during its *loss* phases. Anyone who successfully maintains that loss will be *on Atkins* *out of ketosis* for much longer than they where in ketosis on Atkins. I was in ketosis 6 months, out for 12, back in for around 3-4, and out again for over 2 years at this point, on Atkins the whole time. A citation: How much of this is Lyle MacDonald? "As well, in a low calorie/weight losing condition, lipid profiles almost always improve on a ketogenic diet. DESPITE a high saturated fat intake. Of course, this only holds during the weight loss phase of the diet; at weight maintenance or during weigh gain, blood lipid profiles generally deteriorate on a ketogenic diet. Looks like he didn't even read the book he's commenting on. Not a good sign. The maintenance phase is 1 of 2 non-ketongenic phases of Atkins. However, there is NO rule that says that the same diet used to lose weight must be the same diet used to maintain weight. Like the different phases of Atkins being, uhm, different. You know, like it says to in the book? It's amzing how folks who bad mouth Atkins frequently haven't bothered to read the book. Hey, it's got it's problems folks, it;s just that these aren't them. In fact there IS a rule that the maintenance phase is different from the other phases. Right there in the book. One can shift from a true ketogenic diet towards a more 'balanced' (defined as any diet with 100 g carbs/day) diet during maintenance. That would be accomplished by lowering fat intake and increasing carbohydrate intake. Accept for the comment on 100 grams, this may as well have been lifted from the chapter on maintenance. Hello, McFly, read the book, dude. As well, there is NO rule that says a ketogenic diet has to be high in saturated fats. There's NO rule in Atkins that you have to eat high saturated either. Once again, don't equate the Atkins diet (a piece of **** for the most part) with a low-carb/ketogenic diet. Right. Because only 2 of the 4 phases of Atkins are ketogenic. AND because the increased carb intake in the later phases is at the expense of dietary fat. The Atkins diet is a lowcarb/keto diet but all keto diets are NOT the Atkins diet. To whit, a diet of lean proteins, primarily healthy fats and tons of vegetables (with moderate fruit intake) is (most likely) going to be a ketogenic diet. Oh look! You just described OWL for the typical Atkid! It would be astoundingly healthy (esp. in comparison to both the Standard American Diet and probably the food pyramid). It would also, most likely, be a ketogenic diet Thanks for calling the typical OWL food astoundingly healthy. (defined as any diet containing 100 grams of carbs/day or less). Oh, there's one point where you aren't talking about Atkins. On Atkins, ketogenic is defined as, drum roll please, the amount of carbs it takes one specific body to produce ketones or not. Depending on the individual that could range from 15-150 grams of carb per day but the numbers commonly cluster around 50ish. It would only share the definition of 'ketogenic' with the Atkins diet." In fact only the definition of "ketogenic" diverges from plain old by the book following the actual directions Atkins. It is *astonishing* how many people haven't bothered to *read the book*. Folks, there's a lot more to Atkins than Induction. |
#68
|
|||
|
|||
ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works
On 2003-10-23, Bob M wrote:
Has anyone even studied this? The problem, as I see it, is that no one wants to undertake an analysis of what's happening. Who would pay for it? The beef industry? They don't care -- people eat beef regardless. Not true. The beef industry has been taking it in the shorts for years. Look at all the turkey/chickne hotdogs, lunchmeat, chili, breasts, etc. It's one of the reasons beef is at an all-time high, price-wise. That and the ban on Canadian beef. But, it would seem the beef and corn industry would benefit from a beneficial study. Maybe they are studying it. The milk industry ...cheese!... would also benefit. On the other side of the coin, the starch industry is quaking in their boots. Potato growers are already starting to feel the pinch in the form of a noticeable reduction in french fry sales. Rice is safe. Eleventy jillion asians will see to that. Wheat? Well, bread will be around forever, but I think all the crap snacks will be hard hit. nb |
#69
|
|||
|
|||
ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works
On 2003-10-23, revek wrote:
please trim your posts. Some Usenet users have limits on total download. Thank you. nb |
#70
|
|||
|
|||
ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb: Matti Narkia wrote: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:36:24 GMT in article m "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote: Valley Of Mu_n wrote: On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:25:31 -0500, Aaron Baugher wrote: Why should the AHA care what diet works, if their real concern is helping people with heart problems? The AMA is not only concerned with your heart. They do care about the short and long term effects of any diet on the whole of the person. How long will embarrassment over past mistakes trump doing the right thing now? The AHA doesn't consider it the right thing. The AHA is not alone. From Dr. Barry Sears (2/24/2000): "Finally, the longer you stay in ketosis, you begin to oxidize lipoproteins, so these are long-term consequences which begin to explain why high protein diets fail." Source: http://www.usda.gov/cnpp/Seminars/GND/Proceedings.txt That is your "evidence"?. Evidence that the AHA is not alone in their sentiments? The answer is "yes". Barry Sears' unsubstantiated oral statement over three years ago without any references whatsoever to back it up? Dr. Sears' statement was not contested by Dr. Atkins. Dr. Atkins spoke before Dr. Sears so he couldn't contest this in his presentation. The discussion was too short for everyone to be able to contest everything they might not like about what the others said. You have to do "much" better than that. Not really. See below. Pertinent research: http://tinyurl.com/s8mp "This study demonstrates that incubation of AA with normal RBCs in phosphate-buffered saline (37 degrees C for 24 h) resulted in marked GSH depletion, oxidized glutathione accumulation, hydroxyl radical generation, and increased membrane lipid peroxidation." Note that these are *normal* red blood cells (RBCs) incubated under physiological conditions with AA (acetoacetate is a ketone that *is* elevated with ketogenic LC dieting) resulting in measurable toxic (bad) effects on the cells. Especially concerning is the generation of oxygen free radicals and peroxidation of membrane lipids. As ha already been shown, this applies only to type 1 diabetes patients as authors mention in their conclusion. This in vitro experiment being done under *normal* physiological conditions (no hyperglycemia) makes it applicable to isolated hyperketonemia (ie ketogenic LC dieting). Would suggest you read the entire paper. The full text of this study is at http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org.../48/9/1850.pdf Yes, it is. Would suggest you read it in its entirety especially paying attention to Figure 1. A quote from there gives one explanation why this study applies only to type 1 diabetes: "The blood concentration of ketone bodies may reach 10 mmol/l in diabetic patients with severe ketosis, versus 0.5 mmol/l in normal people (24,25)." Normal people are not having hyperketonemia from being on *ketogenic* LC diets. One would expect folks on *ketogenic* LC diets to have serum ketone concentrations somewhere between 0.5 micromol/ml and 10 micromol/ml. Now look again at Figure 1 paying close attention to MDA (marker of lipid peroxidation, which is the bad stuff). I would not want any of that increasing in my arteries. They used rather high concentrations of ketones. In the second part of the study, where they studied hyperketonemia vs. normoketonemia in diabetics the children in the hyperketonemia-group had a mean level of acetoacetate (which was the only ketone which showed any significant effect on membrane peroxidation) of 0,71 micromol/ml. In the first part however, they seem to have used much higher concentrations in most tests. Their tables show the effects of concentrations of acetoacetate of 5 and 20 micromol/ml. Figure 1 is the only hint that they investigated also the effect of lower concentrations. This figure shows only a small effect for concentrations of about 1 micromol/ml. Then they found out that even the effect of the very high concentrations of acetoacetate on MDA was prevented by a small amount of vitamin E (0,1 micromol/ml). So the effect of acetoacetate on membrane peroxidation might be a possbile concern. However, this study suggests that the effect might not be very important unless the production of ketones gets really out of control and can be prevented altogether by sufficient levels of vitamin E or other antioxidants. The children with hyperketonemia did have somewhat higher levels of MDA and depletion of glutatione, but they also had higher blood sugar so that we don't know whether this is due to the ketones or the blood sugar. Thorsten -- "Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution" (Theodosius Dobzhansky) |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Uncovering the Atkins diet secret | Diarmid Logan | General Discussion | 135 | February 14th, 2004 04:56 PM |
Low carb diets | General Discussion | 249 | January 8th, 2004 11:15 PM | |
Atkins diet may reduce seizures in children with epilepsy | Diarmid Logan | General Discussion | 23 | December 14th, 2003 11:39 AM |
Now Harvard study backs up Atkins diet | Diarmid Logan | General Discussion | 84 | November 16th, 2003 11:31 PM |
Now Harvard study backs up Atkins diet | Diarmid Logan | Low Carbohydrate Diets | 79 | November 16th, 2003 11:31 PM |