clinton surgery question

On 18 Sep 2004 17:09:31 -0700, (Steve Harris
) wrote:

MU wrote in message ...
On 17 Sep 2004 11:54:29 -0700, Steve Harris
wrote:

COMMENT:

And Chung believes that prayers for intercession actually cause god to
do people good, which god wouldn't otherwise do. Which means Chung,
and everybody else who prays for intercession, thinks that it's
necessary or helpful to be god's executive secretary, drawing problems
to god's attention. How's that for egoism?

Unmatched by your own, Steve, especially when you lump all intercessory
prayer as both compelling and informative. But then, being a non Christian
and all, knowing about God has become a (obsessive) specialty of yours.

Let's see if I have this right. You know intimately about a God yu impugn
and deny even exists every chance you get.

lol

These people who go on and on about their humility, are actually some
of the most narcissitic weenies you'll ever run across. They are
always to be found verbally trying to help god fix up the universe,

Always? Every single time?

which god (apparently imperfectly) designed with all kinds of flaws
which need human help to locate.

Your words, incorrect as they are.

All this is pretty hilarious. Of course believers have no sense of
humor, so they don't really appreciate it.

Yes, Steve, all believers always do all the things all the time as you
command.

That was a funny, Steve, in case you missed it.

Pray for me, Chung. God doesn't read sci.med, so I need it bad....

You need it bad regardless of what God does or doesn't read.

MU wrote in message ...
On 17 Sep 2004 11:54:29 -0700, Steve Harris
wrote:

COMMENT:

And Chung believes that prayers for intercession actually cause god to
do people good, which god wouldn't otherwise do. Which means Chung,
and everybody else who prays for intercession, thinks that it's
necessary or helpful to be god's executive secretary, drawing problems
to god's attention. How's that for egoism?

Unmatched by your own, Steve, especially when you lump all intercessory
prayer as both compelling and informative.

COMMENT:

And just exactly where did I do that? The idea of compelling never
entered into this. As for informative, did you miss that word "or"?
FYI, I'm using "helpful" in the broadest sense, to mean helpful to god
or helpful in getting the problem solved. If the believer prays for
god to do something nice for somebody that god wouldn't otherwise do,
and god does it, there's a nice philosophical problem. But if prayer
never influences god to do something he wouldn't have done anyway even
without the prayer, then what's the point of praying for intercession?
Besides, most Christians believe prayer for intercession by god works,
sometimes. That's what they say they believe, anyway.


But then, being a non Christian
and all, knowing about God has become a (obsessive) specialty of yours.

COMMENT:

Well, heck, if I do it and you don't like it, it must be an
"obsession" of mine, eh? I think you're misusing the language. I don't
think you'd know an obsession if it bit you on the ass. Want to google
USENET and look at the fraction of MY total postings on the subject of
Christianity or religion, vs., say, your own? I probably run less
than 1000 to 1. How come it's my obsession and not yours?

Let's see if I have this right. You know intimately about a God yu impugn
and deny even exists every chance you get.


COMMENT
No, you don't have it right. It's believers who claim to know god
intimately, and (strange to tell) they still can't agree on much about
him. I'm just subjecting what they say, to logical analysis. The way
you would with the testimony of any group of people who'd claimed to
observe and be intimately familiar with something. Saucer abductees,
for example. Say that probe went WHERE?? No, I'm not intimately
familiar with that Probulator process myself, though I did see
something like it on Futurama. Does that mean I can't be skeptical?

lol

Ah, you laugh at my skeptical laughter. That's nice. Now, back to your
probe stories….



These people who go on and on about their humility, are actually some
of the most narcissitic weenies you'll ever run across. They are
always to be found verbally trying to help god fix up the universe,

Always? Every single time?


No. "Always" here being used in the sense of seemingly without
interruption, definition #4. One of those non-literal usages of the
word, you know. You have to be a native speaker to get it.


which god (apparently imperfectly) designed with all kinds of flaws
which need human help to locate.

Your words, incorrect as they are.

COMMENT:
You're always free to fix up my errors, instead of just claiming they
exist. Does asking god to do good to anybody EVER result in ANY good
works by god that wouldn't have been done by god, if you hadn't
prayed? Yes or no? I don't think there's an excluded middle ground.
Either it never does, or at least it sometimes does.

All this is pretty hilarious. Of course believers have no sense of
humor, so they don't really appreciate it.

Yes, Steve, all believers always do all the things all the time as you
command.

COMMENT:
Yes, and if I said drunk drivers were dangerous you'd want to know if
I thought every single drunk driver was always dangers every second.
Which is beside the point. Most generalizations that are true in
aggregate, aren't uniformly true. So what?

That was a funny, Steve, in case you missed it.

COMMENT:
If you think that was funny, you're only adding evidence to my case.


Pray for me, Chung. God doesn't read sci.med, so I need it bad....

You need it bad regardless of what God does or doesn't read.

COMMENT
I need prayer bad? For what purpose? You think it will influence god
to do something he wouldn't otherwise do? Same old question. Let's see
you dodge it again.

SBH

Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John

On 18 Sep 2004 17:09:31 -0700, (Steve Harris
) wrote:

MU wrote in message ...
On 17 Sep 2004 11:54:29 -0700, Steve Harris
wrote:

COMMENT:

And Chung believes that prayers for intercession actually cause god to
do people good, which god wouldn't otherwise do. Which means Chung,
and everybody else who prays for intercession, thinks that it's
necessary or helpful to be god's executive secretary, drawing problems
to god's attention. How's that for egoism?

Unmatched by your own, Steve, especially when you lump all intercessory
prayer as both compelling and informative. But then, being a non Christian
and all, knowing about God has become a (obsessive) specialty of yours.

Let's see if I have this right. You know intimately about a God yu impugn
and deny even exists every chance you get.

lol

These people who go on and on about their humility, are actually some
of the most narcissitic weenies you'll ever run across. They are
always to be found verbally trying to help god fix up the universe,

Always? Every single time?

which god (apparently imperfectly) designed with all kinds of flaws
which need human help to locate.

Your words, incorrect as they are.

All this is pretty hilarious. Of course believers have no sense of
humor, so they don't really appreciate it.

Yes, Steve, all believers always do all the things all the time as you
command.

That was a funny, Steve, in case you missed it.

Pray for me, Chung. God doesn't read sci.med, so I need it bad....

You need it bad regardless of what God does or doesn't read.

MU wrote in message ...
On 17 Sep 2004 11:54:29 -0700, Steve Harris
wrote:

COMMENT:

And Chung believes that prayers for intercession actually cause god to
do people good, which god wouldn't otherwise do. Which means Chung,
and everybody else who prays for intercession, thinks that it's
necessary or helpful to be god's executive secretary, drawing problems
to god's attention. How's that for egoism?

Unmatched by your own, Steve, especially when you lump all intercessory
prayer as both compelling and informative.

COMMENT:

And just exactly where did I do that? The idea of compelling never
entered into this. As for informative, did you miss that word "or"?
FYI, I'm using "helpful" in the broadest sense, to mean helpful to god
or helpful in getting the problem solved. If the believer prays for
god to do something nice for somebody that god wouldn't otherwise do,
and god does it, there's a nice philosophical problem. But if prayer
never influences god to do something he wouldn't have done anyway even
without the prayer, then what's the point of praying for intercession?
Besides, most Christians believe prayer for intercession by god works,
sometimes. That's what they say they believe, anyway.


But then, being a non Christian
and all, knowing about God has become a (obsessive) specialty of yours.

COMMENT:

Well, heck, if I do it and you don't like it, it must be an
"obsession" of mine, eh? I think you're misusing the language. I don't
think you'd know an obsession if it bit you on the ass. Want to google
USENET and look at the fraction of MY total postings on the subject of
Christianity or religion, vs., say, your own? I probably run less
than 1000 to 1. How come it's my obsession and not yours?

Let's see if I have this right. You know intimately about a God yu impugn
and deny even exists every chance you get.


COMMENT
No, you don't have it right. It's believers who claim to know god
intimately, and (strange to tell) they still can't agree on much about
him. I'm just subjecting what they say, to logical analysis. The way
you would with the testimony of any group of people who'd claimed to
observe and be intimately familiar with something. Saucer abductees,
for example. Say that probe went WHERE?? No, I'm not intimately
familiar with that Probulator process myself, though I did see
something like it on Futurama. Does that mean I can't be skeptical?

lol

Ah, you laugh at my skeptical laughter. That's nice. Now, back to your
probe stories….



These people who go on and on about their humility, are actually some
of the most narcissitic weenies you'll ever run across. They are
always to be found verbally trying to help god fix up the universe,

Always? Every single time?


No. "Always" here being used in the sense of seemingly without
interruption, definition #4. One of those non-literal usages of the
word, you know. You have to be a native speaker to get it.


which god (apparently imperfectly) designed with all kinds of flaws
which need human help to locate.

Your words, incorrect as they are.

COMMENT:
You're always free to fix up my errors, instead of just claiming they
exist. Does asking god to do good to anybody EVER result in ANY good
works by god that wouldn't have been done by god, if you hadn't
prayed? Yes or no? I don't think there's an excluded middle ground.
Either it never does, or at least it sometimes does.

All this is pretty hilarious. Of course believers have no sense of
humor, so they don't really appreciate it.

Yes, Steve, all believers always do all the things all the time as you
command.

COMMENT:
Yes, and if I said drunk drivers were dangerous you'd want to know if
I thought every single drunk driver was always dangers every second.
Which is beside the point. Most generalizations that are true in
aggregate, aren't uniformly true. So what?

That was a funny, Steve, in case you missed it.

COMMENT:
If you think that was funny, you're only adding evidence to my case.


Pray for me, Chung. God doesn't read sci.med, so I need it bad....

You need it bad regardless of what God does or doesn't read.

COMMENT
I need prayer bad? For what purpose? You think it will influence god
to do something he wouldn't otherwise do? Same old question. Let's see
you dodge it again.

SBH

Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John

p.s.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:05:31 -0600, John wrote:


Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John

p.s. He may answer the prayer of a non-believer or on behalf of a
non-believer just to try to get your attention. Just because you're a
non-believer now doesn't mean you will always be. Something may
'just happen' that'll change your mind. God's will is that no one be
lost but His commitment to free-will trumps that.

John wrote:

p.s.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:05:31 -0600, John
wrote:

Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in
Him who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that
He does not do for nonbelievers.

LOL And the proof for this thesis would be...? Note the word "proof"
slightweight "John." It's only conjecture. Nothing but belief.

For example, if a believer asks God to send His Holy Spirit, the
Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or trouble, I
believe the God will do this. He will not send His Comforter to
you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or trouble
because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway.

LOL "...already got plenty to do anyway..." "John" could you
understand the infinite any less...? That's rhetorical, slow-boy.

God the infinite, the omnipotent, the omniscient, the creator of the
universe is too busy? LOL Sounds like you get together every now and
then and God gives you an earful about his busy days - "Dammit, "John"
I sure wish those comets would stay in their orbits. Every day, some
drift and I have to go push them back where they belong. And don't get
me started on the matter-antimatter thing..."

So, "John" do you give God some kind of tip for good service rendered
in your constant listing of demands? Maybe another fresh bush for him
to burn so he doesn't have to find one himself?

Looks like prayers come in two main varieties for you, "John." One is
"Hey God, I want something." And "Hey God, thanks for that something."
Sounds like Ebay for believers. Star ratings and all... "...already
got plenty to do anyway..." Idiot.

Could your limited grasp of the all-mighty be more evident?

If you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you
too.

Bwahahaha...

Try it.

John

p.s. He may answer the prayer of a non-believer or on behalf of
a non-believer just to try to get your attention.

"John" hedges his bets with another burst of theological sophistry.
How simply lame. Ignore the likely fact that and unbeliever would
pray, how to distinguish between a wish fulfilled and a splendidly
happy coincidence? Right...

Just because you're a non-believer now doesn't mean you will always
be. Something may 'just happen' that'll change your mind. God's
will is that no one be lost but His commitment to free-will trumps
that.

Poor featherweight "John" runs around in Chungish circles trying to
make Steve appear to be flawed because he says he doesn't believe. The
reality here is that "John" hasn't offered anything to convince
anybody of anything. It's faith by slight offers and little reasons.

Oughta read things by smarter people, "John" and that would probably
be anybody who could print his name with a crayon.

Try some Walt Whitman, who said:
"I believe a leaf of grass is no less than the journey work of the stars,
And the pismire is equally perfect, and a grain of sand, and the egg
of the wren,
And the tree-toad is a chef-d'oeuvre for the highest,
And the running blackberry would adorn the parlors of heaven,
And the narrowest hinge in my hand puts to scorn all machinery,
And the cow crunching with depress'd head surpasses any statue,
And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels."


"John," you can't huckster faith like some late night infomercial
slicker. You can't bludgeon belief. You can't smarmily try to shame
people into accepting your vision. You offer a sense of the universe,
if you absolutely must, and there it is. The recipient of your words
chooses to accept or reject based on your wit and wisdom, the story
and how compelling it is, their cutrrent beliefs, and their prior
understandings. You fail most catastrophically on those points,
"John." As do Chung, Carol and MU_ckraker.

None of you gets the notion that your offering has to be accepted by
reasonable people who, generally, are disposed to be believers. But
your shameful displays fairly well guarantee your dismissal. You none
sound like reasonable people. You none behave like reasonable people.
You none confer respect as would a reasonable person. You none feel
connected with reasonable people.

Carol pukes her inanities and lectures people in these ringing and
incoherent diatribes. You deliver half-formed ideas so loosely
connected they wouldn't even work as fishnets, even if you did have
the courage to come out from your anonymous hiding place. MU_le is
merely ugly and malicious and deserves no respect because he's merely
a molester and a fomenter, and a cowardly one at that, anonymous like
you. Chung is driven with the furies of the panicky who need to dash
about frantically showering everyone with his vanity and
self-absorption all the while claiming he's doing it for other
reasons. You are all deluded and doing far more bad than good.

Bob

John wrote:

p.s.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:05:31 -0600, John
wrote:

Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in
Him who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that
He does not do for nonbelievers.

LOL And the proof for this thesis would be...? Note the word "proof"
slightweight "John." It's only conjecture. Nothing but belief.

For example, if a believer asks God to send His Holy Spirit, the
Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or trouble, I
believe the God will do this. He will not send His Comforter to
you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or trouble
because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway.

LOL "...already got plenty to do anyway..." "John" could you
understand the infinite any less...? That's rhetorical, slow-boy.

God the infinite, the omnipotent, the omniscient, the creator of the
universe is too busy? LOL Sounds like you get together every now and
then and God gives you an earful about his busy days - "Dammit, "John"
I sure wish those comets would stay in their orbits. Every day, some
drift and I have to go push them back where they belong. And don't get
me started on the matter-antimatter thing..."

So, "John" do you give God some kind of tip for good service rendered
in your constant listing of demands? Maybe another fresh bush for him
to burn so he doesn't have to find one himself?

Looks like prayers come in two main varieties for you, "John." One is
"Hey God, I want something." And "Hey God, thanks for that something."
Sounds like Ebay for believers. Star ratings and all... "...already
got plenty to do anyway..." Idiot.

Could your limited grasp of the all-mighty be more evident?

If you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you
too.

Bwahahaha...

Try it.

John

p.s. He may answer the prayer of a non-believer or on behalf of
a non-believer just to try to get your attention.

"John" hedges his bets with another burst of theological sophistry.
How simply lame. Ignore the likely fact that and unbeliever would
pray, how to distinguish between a wish fulfilled and a splendidly
happy coincidence? Right...

Just because you're a non-believer now doesn't mean you will always
be. Something may 'just happen' that'll change your mind. God's
will is that no one be lost but His commitment to free-will trumps
that.

Poor featherweight "John" runs around in Chungish circles trying to
make Steve appear to be flawed because he says he doesn't believe. The
reality here is that "John" hasn't offered anything to convince
anybody of anything. It's faith by slight offers and little reasons.

Oughta read things by smarter people, "John" and that would probably
be anybody who could print his name with a crayon.

Try some Walt Whitman, who said:
"I believe a leaf of grass is no less than the journey work of the stars,
And the pismire is equally perfect, and a grain of sand, and the egg
of the wren,
And the tree-toad is a chef-d'oeuvre for the highest,
And the running blackberry would adorn the parlors of heaven,
And the narrowest hinge in my hand puts to scorn all machinery,
And the cow crunching with depress'd head surpasses any statue,
And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels."


"John," you can't huckster faith like some late night infomercial
slicker. You can't bludgeon belief. You can't smarmily try to shame
people into accepting your vision. You offer a sense of the universe,
if you absolutely must, and there it is. The recipient of your words
chooses to accept or reject based on your wit and wisdom, the story
and how compelling it is, their cutrrent beliefs, and their prior
understandings. You fail most catastrophically on those points,
"John." As do Chung, Carol and MU_ckraker.

None of you gets the notion that your offering has to be accepted by
reasonable people who, generally, are disposed to be believers. But
your shameful displays fairly well guarantee your dismissal. You none
sound like reasonable people. You none behave like reasonable people.
You none confer respect as would a reasonable person. You none feel
connected with reasonable people.

Carol pukes her inanities and lectures people in these ringing and
incoherent diatribes. You deliver half-formed ideas so loosely
connected they wouldn't even work as fishnets, even if you did have
the courage to come out from your anonymous hiding place. MU_le is
merely ugly and malicious and deserves no respect because he's merely
a molester and a fomenter, and a cowardly one at that, anonymous like
you. Chung is driven with the furies of the panicky who need to dash
about frantically showering everyone with his vanity and
self-absorption all the while claiming he's doing it for other
reasons. You are all deluded and doing far more bad than good.

Bob

John wrote in message . ..
Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John


Comment,

He'd "find the time"? You must be joking.

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

SBH

John wrote in message . ..
Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John


Comment,

He'd "find the time"? You must be joking.

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

SBH

On 19 Sep 2004 16:17:24 -0700, (Steve Harris
) wrote:

John wrote in message . ..
Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John


Comment,

He'd "find the time"? You must be joking.

In a manner of speaking, yes. But I do believe that God doesn't spend
a lot of time worrying about the problems of atheists.

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

You also seem to be asking me how prayer works. Jesus instructed us
to pray and how to pray and what to pray for. I try to do it His way.
Some of my prayers have been answered, others apparently not. I
believe that God doesn't much care to violate His own Laws of Physics
to answer my prayers so I don't often ask for this (and don't get it
much either.) Some of my prayers have been of the intercessory
variety and I don't know whether they were answered or not. Or if so,
how. But I try it anyway. Can't hurt.

I believe that one of God's most frequent methods of answering prayer
is though ideas. Ideas don't have to obey His Laws of Physics. They
are neither matter nor energy. I do know that incredible ideas have
been slipped into my brain in a mere flash of an instant that were
fully and completely correct once I had time to work out the science.
Talk about discernment - wow! I didn't ask for it, pray for it or
know any other reason why it happened but it did. My working
hypothesis for this is that God wanted someone to know this idea and
gave it to me (and possibly many others as well.) Why? I don't know.
But I am very thankful to have participated in this. And oh, some of
this happened before I believed in God. Maybe He was just trying to
get my attention. It worked, but I guess He knew it would.

So keep you mind open - God might decide that you should be the one to
receive the knowledge to cure HIV, tuberculosis or malaria. Why then,
why you? I don't know. But be ready. Prepare yourself.

John

John wrote:

On 19 Sep 2004 16:17:24 -0700, (Steve Harris
) wrote:

John wrote in message . ..

Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John

Comment,

He'd "find the time"? You must be joking.

In a manner of speaking, yes. But I do believe that God doesn't spend
a lot of time worrying about the problems of atheists.

God is outside of time. God is in all time. God created time. Your
continued anthropomorphizing of God makes no sense at all. You reduce
God to some somewhat superior, harried human who can't keep up with
his own creations. God is pure vastness and pure infinity. You make
God sound like some petulant suburbanite who can't be bothered to deal
with his crabgrass.

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?


You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

Not at all surprisingly, "John" misses the real issues in Steve's
comments. Steve raises the question about *why* they're the problems
of life if God is benevolent and fair as you assert. Steve wonders why
an omnipotent, all-merciful being would permit the sorts of cruelty
that pervades daily life to persist. You're going to give one of those
"No one knows what's in God's mind" evasions. You happily posit what
else God thinks, all except "why." That *test* business dies under the
most trivial scrutiny.

You also seem to be asking me how prayer works. Jesus instructed us
to pray and how to pray and what to pray for. I try to do it His way.
Some of my prayers have been answered, others apparently not. I
believe that God doesn't much care to violate His own Laws of Physics
to answer my prayers so I don't often ask for this (and don't get it
much either.) Some of my prayers have been of the intercessory
variety and I don't know whether they were answered or not. Or if so,
how. But I try it anyway. Can't hurt.

"Can't hurt." This is your explanation about prayer?

"Some of my prayers have been answered, others apparently not." And
what's the difference between that and no prayer and some wishes seem
to be fulfilled and others not?

"...I don't know whether they were answered or not." And you still
think this is a good way to invest your time, energy and thought?

I believe that one of God's most frequent methods of answering prayer
is though ideas. Ideas don't have to obey His Laws of Physics. They
are neither matter nor energy. I do know that incredible ideas have
been slipped into my brain in a mere flash of an instant that were
fully and completely correct once I had time to work out the science.

Sorry, "John." You haven't shown any discernible ability with the ways
of science. You don't develop thoughts logically and linearly. You
don't test your own hypotheses, you don't limit your expositions to
that which can be measured or proven, you don't proceed in orderly
fashion to promulgate ideas. You aren't a scientist.

You have earlier claimed to be an engineer. Science and engineering
are fundamentally different ways of looking at the universe - with
engineering being a more pragmatic, empirical way that reduces action
to its most basic principles. What it really looks like is that you're
neither.

Talk about discernment - wow!

LOL Right. Push very hard to fit that round peg into a square hole...

Inspiration happens with people who believe, who don't believe, who
believe in wicca, who don't believe in an afterlife, and...

The guys who came up with wheels, spears, bows and arrows,
domesticated animals, etc. came up with ideas. They saw the world and
did a "what if" or a "why not." It's patently absurd to posit this as
divine instruction in the face of the whole business about free will.
By the time you and Chung get through with how much is the direction
of God, there's not a lot left for anybody to will.

I didn't ask for it, pray for it or
know any other reason why it happened but it did.

The salient fact here is that you don't know and have no evidence for
anything. Or so a scientist would say. So would an engineer.

My working
hypothesis for this is that God wanted someone to know this idea and
gave it to me (and possibly many others as well.) Why? I don't know.

No reason to believe it came from God. No evidence. Belief only.

But I am very thankful to have participated in this. And oh, some of
this happened before I believed in God. Maybe He was just trying to
get my attention.

Assuming a position not supported by evidence of any kind.

It worked, but I guess He knew it would.

Or maybe it's a nonsense example pulled out of thin air and at the
level of 4th grade Sunday School with crayons and potholders with a
cross woven into them.

"John" uses his "working hypothesis" as proof of his working
hypothesis. Lousy science. Lousy engineering. Lousy thinking in
general. Flawed and dismissable.

A labored explanation with not even your own conviction to sustain it.
"Why? I don't know." Says it all.

So keep you mind open - God might decide that you should be the one to
receive the knowledge to cure HIV, tuberculosis or malaria. Why then,
why you? I don't know. But be ready. Prepare yourself.

Right. And get ready to win the olympic marathon. "But be ready.
Prepare yourself."

"The harder I work, the luckier I get."

Go study some theology with somebody who knows a bit of history,
cultural anthropology and comparative theology. Instead of whoever it
is that's feeding you these feather-light ideas.

Bob

John wrote:

On 19 Sep 2004 16:17:24 -0700, (Steve Harris
) wrote:

John wrote in message . ..

Steve,

The answer is yes - God does do things for those who believe in Him
who ask Him, in faith, for help. These would be things that He does
not do for nonbelievers. For example, if a believer asks God to send
His Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to help him through a time of trial or
trouble, I believe the God will do this. He will not send His
Comforter to you, for example, to help you in a time of trial or
trouble because you don't believe in Him anyway and would reject His
efforts on your behalf and He's already got plenty to do anyway. If
you were to become a believer, He'd find the time to help you too.

Try it.

John

Comment,

He'd "find the time"? You must be joking.

In a manner of speaking, yes. But I do believe that God doesn't spend
a lot of time worrying about the problems of atheists.

God is outside of time. God is in all time. God created time. Your
continued anthropomorphizing of God makes no sense at all. You reduce
God to some somewhat superior, harried human who can't keep up with
his own creations. God is pure vastness and pure infinity. You make
God sound like some petulant suburbanite who can't be bothered to deal
with his crabgrass.

Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?


You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

Not at all surprisingly, "John" misses the real issues in Steve's
comments. Steve raises the question about *why* they're the problems
of life if God is benevolent and fair as you assert. Steve wonders why
an omnipotent, all-merciful being would permit the sorts of cruelty
that pervades daily life to persist. You're going to give one of those
"No one knows what's in God's mind" evasions. You happily posit what
else God thinks, all except "why." That *test* business dies under the
most trivial scrutiny.

You also seem to be asking me how prayer works. Jesus instructed us
to pray and how to pray and what to pray for. I try to do it His way.
Some of my prayers have been answered, others apparently not. I
believe that God doesn't much care to violate His own Laws of Physics
to answer my prayers so I don't often ask for this (and don't get it
much either.) Some of my prayers have been of the intercessory
variety and I don't know whether they were answered or not. Or if so,
how. But I try it anyway. Can't hurt.

"Can't hurt." This is your explanation about prayer?

"Some of my prayers have been answered, others apparently not." And
what's the difference between that and no prayer and some wishes seem
to be fulfilled and others not?

"...I don't know whether they were answered or not." And you still
think this is a good way to invest your time, energy and thought?

I believe that one of God's most frequent methods of answering prayer
is though ideas. Ideas don't have to obey His Laws of Physics. They
are neither matter nor energy. I do know that incredible ideas have
been slipped into my brain in a mere flash of an instant that were
fully and completely correct once I had time to work out the science.

Sorry, "John." You haven't shown any discernible ability with the ways
of science. You don't develop thoughts logically and linearly. You
don't test your own hypotheses, you don't limit your expositions to
that which can be measured or proven, you don't proceed in orderly
fashion to promulgate ideas. You aren't a scientist.

You have earlier claimed to be an engineer. Science and engineering
are fundamentally different ways of looking at the universe - with
engineering being a more pragmatic, empirical way that reduces action
to its most basic principles. What it really looks like is that you're
neither.

Talk about discernment - wow!

LOL Right. Push very hard to fit that round peg into a square hole...

Inspiration happens with people who believe, who don't believe, who
believe in wicca, who don't believe in an afterlife, and...

The guys who came up with wheels, spears, bows and arrows,
domesticated animals, etc. came up with ideas. They saw the world and
did a "what if" or a "why not." It's patently absurd to posit this as
divine instruction in the face of the whole business about free will.
By the time you and Chung get through with how much is the direction
of God, there's not a lot left for anybody to will.

I didn't ask for it, pray for it or
know any other reason why it happened but it did.

The salient fact here is that you don't know and have no evidence for
anything. Or so a scientist would say. So would an engineer.

My working
hypothesis for this is that God wanted someone to know this idea and
gave it to me (and possibly many others as well.) Why? I don't know.

No reason to believe it came from God. No evidence. Belief only.

But I am very thankful to have participated in this. And oh, some of
this happened before I believed in God. Maybe He was just trying to
get my attention.

Assuming a position not supported by evidence of any kind.

It worked, but I guess He knew it would.

Or maybe it's a nonsense example pulled out of thin air and at the
level of 4th grade Sunday School with crayons and potholders with a
cross woven into them.

"John" uses his "working hypothesis" as proof of his working
hypothesis. Lousy science. Lousy engineering. Lousy thinking in
general. Flawed and dismissable.

A labored explanation with not even your own conviction to sustain it.
"Why? I don't know." Says it all.

So keep you mind open - God might decide that you should be the one to
receive the knowledge to cure HIV, tuberculosis or malaria. Why then,
why you? I don't know. But be ready. Prepare yourself.

Right. And get ready to win the olympic marathon. "But be ready.
Prepare yourself."

"The harder I work, the luckier I get."

Go study some theology with somebody who knows a bit of history,
cultural anthropology and comparative theology. Instead of whoever it
is that's feeding you these feather-light ideas.

Bob