clinton surgery question

Happy Dog rote:

"John" wrote:

I intend to do everything I can to maximize my time here on Earth
without messing up my eternal life. I'm wondering where you get
these strange misconceptions of what the Christian life is like.

You have no eternal life that you can bet on. So forgive now only
if it makes you feel better. Do you think that the loved ones hurt
must feel the same way? If they cried "kill" would you act? If
other Christians told you to forgive but had conflicting worldly
interests would you defer to their pious stance? I'm wondering
where you get anything resembling a conception of what any life
ruled by religion is like. What makes yours any different from
ass-waving Muslims?

LOL Lovely. The bunch of them got upset when I called them
Taliban-like. The realities zoomed past them.

You have to forgive "John." He's trying to carry the entire wacko
fundamentalist cardboard-Christian load here. The problem is his
hairstyle. He hasn't been able to get one of those swoopy, contrived
do's that the televangelists have. And he lost his robin's egg blue
leisure suit. I'm sure you see the handicap he's working under. Well,
all this and the fact that he's a balloonhead.

Just take a few potshots at him (I agree that slow-moving targets like
him aren't as satisfying as a smart person) and think of it as
practice to keep the observational and critical skills slightly
sharpened.

I like the "besotted" image you've written. On the mark.

Bob

John wrote:

On 21 Sep 2004 19:50:29 -0700, (Steve Harris
) wrote:

John wrote in message . ..
Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.


COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary.

A good portion of the agony in the world is caused by people's free
will choices. Would you be willing to give up free will to avoid rape
and murder? Unfortunately, free will allows people to make bad,
really bad choices that harm themselves and others. But free will
without the ability to make a bad choice isn't free will, is it?

Why do we have free will anyway? Recall that the Bible teaches that
we were made in God's image. I believe that this free will aspect is
one attribute in which we are most like God. Certainly, we are not
omnipotent, immortal beings, but we do have this free will thing. The
other way we are in God's image is the ability to love.

If somebody raped and killed your
daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.

You've gone beyond the hypothetical here with me.

It always amazes me how God purposefully uses those who have rejected
Him without violating their free will. Here there is true "shock and
awe."

Those who discern the truth see it and are manifold strengthened by what
they see.

Yes, our free wills are coexisting with His huge will and marvelous
plan. With God all things are possible, without Him nothing is
possible.

You remain in my prayers, dear John whom I love.

May the Holy Spirit continue to fill you with strength and purpose.

Amen.


Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

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http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

John wrote:

On 21 Sep 2004 19:50:29 -0700, (Steve Harris
) wrote:

John wrote in message . ..
Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.


COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary.

A good portion of the agony in the world is caused by people's free
will choices. Would you be willing to give up free will to avoid rape
and murder? Unfortunately, free will allows people to make bad,
really bad choices that harm themselves and others. But free will
without the ability to make a bad choice isn't free will, is it?

Why do we have free will anyway? Recall that the Bible teaches that
we were made in God's image. I believe that this free will aspect is
one attribute in which we are most like God. Certainly, we are not
omnipotent, immortal beings, but we do have this free will thing. The
other way we are in God's image is the ability to love.

If somebody raped and killed your
daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.

You've gone beyond the hypothetical here with me.

It always amazes me how God purposefully uses those who have rejected
Him without violating their free will. Here there is true "shock and
awe."

Those who discern the truth see it and are manifold strengthened by what
they see.

Yes, our free wills are coexisting with His huge will and marvelous
plan. With God all things are possible, without Him nothing is
possible.

You remain in my prayers, dear John whom I love.

May the Holy Spirit continue to fill you with strength and purpose.

Amen.


Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

Steve Harris wrote:

John wrote in message . ..
Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary. If somebody raped and killed your
daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.

Such is the weakness of the flesh.

Or if was the doctor you'd gone to about your leukemic kid and I told
you, "well, that's life. What do you want, for the kid to be immortal
maybe. Would you be willing to give up the blessings of life to avoid
the pain of death? Not me, bub."

As Christians, we have not been commanded to give up the blessings of
God but to use these blessings to glorify Him.

I think you might need restraining
at that point as well.

Not if one has chosen to walk with Him.

That's the problem with believers. It's all that hypocrisy. When
you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

Will of God.

Boloney, I say. You don't believe it for a second. I've seen
Christians drowning, and I've seen other Christians throwing them a
rope, and none of it looked very philosophical to me.

What you see is part of His will.

SBH

You remain in my prayers, dear Steve whom I love.


Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

Steve Harris wrote:

John wrote in message . ..
Sending spiritual comfort bores me. The world needs something more.
The amount of innocent suffering in the world, in both animals and
humans, is gigantic. So it's perfectly obvious god does NOT "find the
time" to help all those who could really use help. The trapped and
dying animal, the starving African child, the good person with the bad
disease.

So the question before us, is, why not? And if you think god cleans
away some fraction of that physical suffering mentioned above because
somebody *asks* him to, but not otherwise, the question is "why?" Why
does god wait until asked? For simplicity's sake, please confine your
answer to third party intercession, where the innocent suffer being
prayed for is too ill or too young or two mentally impaired (animal or
human) to pray for him/her/itself.

You know, if I had the power to do something about some of the nasty
things of the world, I do it. A snap of my fingers and HIV, malaria,
and tuberculosis in this world would go the way of smallpox. And
everybody would get something to eat, too. And I'm an evil old
atheist. So how come god's meaner than I am?

You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary. If somebody raped and killed your
daughter, and they were caught and interrogated and you got all angry
about it, I think it wouldn't help at all if Mr. Bundy got all
philosophical on you and said: "Hey, John, calm down. You seem to
complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e., everything living
will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will die. Some easily,
some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster..." I think you'd
have to be restrained about that point. And rightly so.

Such is the weakness of the flesh.

Or if was the doctor you'd gone to about your leukemic kid and I told
you, "well, that's life. What do you want, for the kid to be immortal
maybe. Would you be willing to give up the blessings of life to avoid
the pain of death? Not me, bub."

As Christians, we have not been commanded to give up the blessings of
God but to use these blessings to glorify Him.

I think you might need restraining
at that point as well.

Not if one has chosen to walk with Him.

That's the problem with believers. It's all that hypocrisy. When
you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

Will of God.

Boloney, I say. You don't believe it for a second. I've seen
Christians drowning, and I've seen other Christians throwing them a
rope, and none of it looked very philosophical to me.

What you see is part of His will.

SBH

You remain in my prayers, dear Steve whom I love.


Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R20632B48

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867

"Bob (this one)" wrote in message

I like the "besotted" image you've written. On the mark.

Agreed. But not mine. "Uncle" Al Schwartz. Google it.

le moo

On 21 Sep 2004 19:50:29 -0700, Steve Harris
wrote:

COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary.

Beats me. Would suspect that it is. God's Plan, Steve, not yours, not mine
and not necessary for either of us to understand.

That's the problem with believers. It's all that hypocrisy. When
you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

All believers do not act this way nor do they act righteously, correctly,
saintly or unsaintly, Steve. What all believers do have in common is they
are human and filled with sin.

Why would you expect otherwise? I do get tired of the argument that if
believers are not perfect, their beliefs are absurd. Absurd is to believe
that there is ANT perfection in believers whatsoever.

Boloney, I say. You don't believe it for a second. I've seen
Christians drowning, and I've seen other Christians throwing them a
rope, and none of it looked very philosophical to me.

See above.

On 21 Sep 2004 19:50:29 -0700, Steve Harris
wrote:

COMMENT:

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary.

Beats me. Would suspect that it is. God's Plan, Steve, not yours, not mine
and not necessary for either of us to understand.

That's the problem with believers. It's all that hypocrisy. When
you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

All believers do not act this way nor do they act righteously, correctly,
saintly or unsaintly, Steve. What all believers do have in common is they
are human and filled with sin.

Why would you expect otherwise? I do get tired of the argument that if
believers are not perfect, their beliefs are absurd. Absurd is to believe
that there is ANT perfection in believers whatsoever.

Boloney, I say. You don't believe it for a second. I've seen
Christians drowning, and I've seen other Christians throwing them a
rope, and none of it looked very philosophical to me.

See above.

And you just said you're a skeptic. This silly rhetoric presumes that
all
rewards and punishments are meted out in the afterlife.

No, you made that incorrect assumption.

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:15:44 -0400, Happy Dog wrote:

It's incorrect? You know this how, MU? And, if not reward or punishment in
the afterlife, what possible reason for horrible things happening to good
people or the opposite?

I know this through God's teachings and the *intimate* reasons for His Plan
(why this and that) I don't have any real knowledge nor should I. Nor do I
need to.

You might put down that pipe and learn to read and put together coherent
thought patterns. How you get from a misinterpretation of skepticism to an
inaccurate presumption/statement regarding the afterlife is a brain maze I
cannot even begin to follow.

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:15:44 -0400, Happy Dog wrote:

It's simple. You're a Christ-besotted idiot who makes untestable claims.
You might as well claim to be god. It's logically equal to much of the
stuff you claim.

The only thing I take from this paragraph above is that you don't care for
me. The rest makes no sense at all. Equating "intestable claims" to being a
"god(like)" (whoever "god" is to you since you deny His existence) is a
perfect picture in being illogical.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 05:49:58 -0400, "Happy Dog"
wrote:


"John" wrote in message news:
) wrote:


You seem to be complaining about one of the problems of life: i.e.,
everything living will die -- some sooner, some later, but all will
die. Some easily, some painfully, but all will die. You too, buster.
(Oh yeah, me too.) Would you be willing to give up the blessings of
life to avoid the pain of death? Not me.

Excuse me? There's a lot of agony in the world, and I want to know if
you think all of it is necessary.

A good portion of the agony in the world is caused by people's free
will choices. Would you be willing to give up free will to avoid rape
and murder? Unfortunately, free will allows people to make bad,
really bad choices that harm themselves and others. But free will
without the ability to make a bad choice isn't free will, is it?

The point is that the god-besotted make the hypocritcal argument that god is
great either because he created this behaviour or allows it. To what end?

Ah, yes, God-besotted as in Acts chapter 2. Thanks for the
compliment. You'll have to read the scripture to see what I mean.
;-)

You need to look up the meaning of hypocritical (and learn to spell
it). For a believer to hold the above view can in no way be
hypocrisy. But you do, in a very awkward way pose an interesting
question; why did God create mankind with free will? Answer: so that
mankind will be able to freely love God. Not that we will, but that
we will be able to choose to do so if we wish.

Why do we have free will anyway? Recall that the Bible teaches that
we were made in God's image. I believe that this free will aspect is
one attribute in which we are most like God. Certainly, we are not
omnipotent, immortal beings, but we do have this free will thing. The
other way we are in God's image is the ability to love.

Love killing thine enemies. Where do you guys draw the line?

That's easy - killing is a sin.

God has this
free will conundrum happening in his own mind? (His own mind? - Lordy.)
What the **** is free will to an omnipotent being? Have you thought this
through? An omnipotent being has no use for free will. Any will at all.
To deny this leads directly to the question of heavy rocks. Is this new to
you?

Did you write the above while drunk? I didn't say God had free will.
I said that we were most like God in that we were created with free
will. Of course God is omnipotent and can do what ever He wants. We
can only TRY to do whatever we want.

Or if was the doctor you'd gone to about your leukemic kid and I told
you, "well, that's life. What do you want, for the kid to be immortal
maybe. Would you be willing to give up the blessings of life to avoid
the pain of death? Not me, bub." I think you might need restraining
at that point as well.

I think this would be easier to face because there is no perpetrator
involved. Still extremely difficult, but having faced the one I think
I'd have preferred the other. There are also no forgiveness issues
with a disease as there are with murderers. Figuring out how to
follow Jesus' teaching to forgive our enemies was very difficult to
do. It took me 14 years to work it out.

Or aquiesce to a comfortable fairy tale. To believe that god is omnipotent
is to forgive horrible things that he might have prevented. (Hey, you said
that he's human-like.) But, you believe in an eternal after-life. So why
be so quick to forgive?

Jesus gave us these teachings to improve our life, not to impose a
burden on us. My life has improved substantially since forgiving
those unforgivable things.

you're being murdered or you're sentencing somebody to be executed,
you view it as the worst thing that can happen, and you'd go to great
heroics to stop the one, and perhaps to insure the other. But when
your god does those things to you, or allows them to happen to
somebody you love, then you get all warm and fuzzy and philosophical
about it. Hey, it's no big deal. Cycle of life, you know.

There's a country song with the words, "Lord, I want to go to Heaven,
but I don't want to go tonight." Death is not to be feared but it is
not to be embraced either. I intend to do everything I can to
maximize my time here on Earth without messing up my eternal life.
I'm wondering where you get these strange misconceptions of what the
Christian life is like.

You have no eternal life that you can bet on.

Oh really? Google up "Pascal's wager".

So forgive now only if it
makes you feel better.

I have; it does.

John