not a good WI

I bet. I'm afraid of heights, so I think I'll just stick around for more of
your wonderful pictures. I used to ski, but getting off that lift would
make me terribly anxious.

Julie
"Fred" wrote in message
news
Glissading, if done safety is a total blast. What can takes hours to
climb can be descended in minutes - zoooooooooommmmmmmm!

On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 08:45:19 -0500, "skiur"
wrote:

Have a wonderful time. Glissading sounds exotic.

Julie

"Fred" wrote in message
.. .
I don't know if it will be unconscious altho, I think home made
dinners are pretty automatic now. But just don't present me with a
cheese board or dessert array! That is where I need willpower.

Spring is here. We are planning on a steep snow climb today in what
we expect will be spring slush. To an old lookout just above I-90.
With any luck we will be able to slide down 1,000 to 2,000 feet on our
butts (glissading) voluntarily

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:16:06 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Same here. I would like to think that it is being handled by my
subconcious, but
I'm not confident enough to believe that. I do have to think about
those
choices.
Such as right now ... have such a taste for chips, but I won't move in
that
direction. So far I've successfully ignored all inner voices, if I do
cave I'll
reach for that orange. And I also continue to fight. I gave in this
evening, had
a wonderful dinner - but do know that I will definitely watch things
the
rest of
the week. It's becoming routine - I have to work to keep it that way.
You and
that dried mango, haven't you learned yet? G

hahaha - I hope at least you will think about it before you try it
again.
I kind
of figured that the downhill trip had to be by brake alone the entire
way. I'm
glad to hear at least that you didn't slide into anything or have a
nasty
spill.
Best to stay where it's warm now - winter is supposed to be over. G

Joyce

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:45:10 -0800, Fred
wrote:

I think my current SETPOINT is being handled by _ME_ in an direct
effort of consciousness. That is I am fighting any tendency to let
it
stray upward - like you say "working toward those same results." I
can't say that it is not something that drives me/us to eat or some
internal mechanism but this time, so far, I'm fighting back. (other
than opening the stupid bag of mangoes I got at Costco this morning
and inhaled on the drive home!)

Yes, I did try pedalling UP. It was not smart (afterthought, there
was NO PRE-thought whatsoever! (G)). Coming down was a consistent
pump the brakes over and over for about 2 miles till I was off the
snow and then care on the very wet roadway. The cold and
concentration were not fun. I will not do it again, well, at least,
not soon (G)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:27:18 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Hmmmmmmm, then thinking logically, or illogically, would that mean
that
if we
wanted to lose even more, we would first have to put weight on to
shift
that new
setpoint? Ahhhh, you know how I hate thinking. G I've never
believed 100% in
the setpoint theory, in the past anyway. I now am beginning to
wonder
more about
it, thinking that there just may be something behind it. It seems
much
to easy to
me right now, to go up a pound or two and drop right back down -
always
hovering
in the same zone. I'm just not sure if it is because of the
setpoint,
or because
I am working towards those same results. I think I'm going to have
to
go with the
*who knows* answer.

You actually tried pedalling UP a snowcovered pass? Geeeesh, you
are a
silly man!
I'm not even sure that going down was an overly bright idea - bet
you
slipped and
slided your way all the way back to the car. I also bet those
activity
points
added up quickly from trying valiantly to keep your bicycle under
control. G I
don't think you need any more excitement in your life.

Joyce

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:59:47 -0800, Fred
wrote:

The other day another friend who is a bit older is trying to get
back
into form. He used to run a lot but can't do it as much. But he
went
to a specialist (providing services to Microsoft employees) altho
friend went to a free session. This doc discussed Setpoint but
suggested if you lose and keep it off, you probably have reset your
set point lower. Who knows. I really did not think that I ate so
much last week to account for a 2.6 up. But the home weight also
stayed kind of near there for a few more days. Shall I say it
again -
who knows.

As for the weather, well, I thought I had escaped to sunny eastern
Washington . And it was sunny but windy. Until I drove the bike
up
toward the pass. The sun changed to snow flurries as I started
pedaling. In a few miles, about 3, it changed to real snow and
then
there was 2-3 inches of new snow on the roadway (still closed to
cars
as they are plowing it open). I was skidding and finally turned
around. Downhill in slushy snow and frigid temps. 7 miles back
down
to the car. Got back to friend's house where the sun was still
shining but I was thoroughly chilled.

Interesting day!!!!

We change clocks next weekend - there is hope.

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:50:52 -0600, Joyce wrote:

LOL! Not as confused as me. G But it's fun, I love the
confusion
(somewhat) -
seems to go right along with my current lifestyle.

Bottom line .. no, I really don't want to drop to the 125 - it is
just one of
those numbers that for some reason jumps into my brain on
occassion.
I'd really
like to stay at 130 ... constantly. I'd like to know what to do
to
stay there,
instead of up 2, down 2, up 3, down ... you know. What confuses
me
is why doing
more treadmill, and eating less, the weight does not decline.
Maybe
there really
is something to that setpoint theory you've spoken of before? I
do
know there
really isn't a magic number - but I still am searching for it. G
It would make
things so much easier.

The weather could have a lot to do with the lack of energy, as
well
as just having
too much to do and not sure where to even start (or what to do
next).
This has
been a crazy time here, crazier than usual. I have so much to get
done, and it
just isn't happening ... at least not in the way I would like it
to.

Joyce

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:44:08 -0800, Fred

wrote:

Well, with all the info below, color me confused (G)

So, bottom line is you really do want to drop the bottom line to
125.

But also remember (down in that text somewhere...) that you
canNOT
find a fix count of calories or points or whatever someone else
invents. Each day demands calories or points for what you throw
at
your body. Treadmill - more. No treadmill and just reading -
less.
Two treadmill sessions - even more. Etc. There is no one magic
number. I am trying to also remember that.

Maybe Spring is not coming soon enough which explains the lack of
energy. Or again, yes, being at goal with no aim or objective
driving
the daily food issues makes things duller - get use to it (G)
Virtue
or being at goal/maintenance is its own reward.



On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:47:09 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Yes, I am maintaining too. What I find odd though, is that I
seem
to maintain on
many different amounts of points. 25, 20, 27 (I have never
really
pushed my luck
much above the 27 point mark). I can go two weeks of watching
very
carefully,
staying at or below 23 points - which used to be what I needed
to
be at to lose on
ww ... now I only maintain there. Which is nice, but sometimes
that
dang 125
number flies into my head and makes me think ... but nothing I
do
seems to be able
to send me into that direction. THAT is what makes me wonder
....
how much do I
*really* need to eat. Sometimes I think it would be nice to
know
this magical
number - be it calories, or points - just *something* a bit more
firm and
tangible. And most days I now am finding I have very little
energy - to do
anything much other than crawl out of bed, clean the kitchen, do
my
treadmill
(which is pushing my luck) ... that's about it. Why is this?
Is
it just the
weather, or is it from something else? I haven't felt this lack
of
energy for a
long, long time now - really since I started on ww. And then I
could come up with
the explanation - I was overweight. NOW what is my excuse?

I have no idea why dietpower thinks I should be eating more.
Maybe
Lesanne can
jump in with her wonderful knowledge of the program here, and
explain. I believe
the program is based on metabolic rates. Studies what I have
entered as my
caloric intake, as well as suggested scientific metabolic rates,
my
personal data
(age/weight/height/lifestyle ... smoker/non-smoker, etc) ...
daily
weights,
exercise routines ... lumps it all together, sorts it all out,
and
comes up with a
mystical number of calories that says it is my metabolic rate.
When I started
using this program on 3/1, it said my metabolic rate was 2005
....
since them my
weight has dropped 3 pounds (I am up a pound this week - heaven
only knows why)
and my metabolic rate has now risen to 2235. This seems awfully
high to me, and I
am not eating anywhere near that amount of calories. I am
averaging 1700 calories
eaten, most days well below that (1500-1600) but a few high days
thrown into the
mix. Guess I would rather see my metabolic rate say the same
thing, if this is
where I should be maintaining. Adding 500 calories to THAT
number
does take me to
the suggested 2200 number ... but logic also says I should be
losing by eating 500
calories less. See where I get very confused? Have I just
stalled
my body? Or
is the program still *catching up* and *sorting things out*?

I do think the program was over determining the exercise, based
on
the programming
error that Lesanne did find. I have since corrected that,
relogged
everything and
come up with what does sound like a truer number (using the
calorieperhour.com
website). 40-60+ minutes of walking at 4MPH. I am calling it a
5%
incline, since
I vary anywhere from the number 3-8 setting on the treadmill. I
figured 5% was
right in the middle and probably where the machine would average
it
out over the
duration of the workout. Roughly 400 calories burned in an
hour,
give or take a
few ... not unreasonable and I don't think too high for what I
am
doing. (The lcd
on my machine says 700+, I defintely think that is way too
high).
Based on the
19 days I have used the program, 3 days in that time with no
exercise logged (not
bad for 19 days!), I am averaging 252 calories in exercise per
day.

And, unfortunately, I can't even really cut down on my snacking
anymore. It has
become pretty nonexistant these days. I do have my snack mid
afternoon ... a bowl
of cut up fruit (melons, pineapple, strawberries) or yogurt ...
and
a desert in
the evening (skinny cow) OR snack (again, usually the mixed
fruit
or an apple,
maybe some meringues about once a week) ... rarely both. That's
it. No munchies,
no crunchies.

I guess in a nutshell, I am confused these days. Where do I go
from here? I am
not unhappy maintaining, but once in a while I do think I would
like to see the
silly scale move a bit further down .. just for grins. Guess
I'm
just always
finding something to question. So to really throw things off,
today I feel like I
totally maxed everything out. Out for lunch, out for dinner -
no
good choices
made at either meal ... and I'm not fretting about it. G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:38:03 -0800, Fred
wrote:

After I posted, I realized though, that I seem to be
maintaining.
Up
and down but only a pound here or there. So I would have to
guess
that I am (and probably YOU are) eating about right. I think
there
have been days I could have used a bit more energy and I am
thinking
of adding a bit more food on outing jaunts. (getting to around
155 is
probably still in the back of my mind when I have my doubts or
post
like I did. But for maintaining - I AM MAINTAINING)

So, why does that program (diet power?? was it?) think you
should
eat
more? Does it have any explanations or background? Either
that
or it
may be mis-calculating exercise/activity calories???

I think really what I'm thinking is that it would be nice to
cut
down
the snacking which sometimes seems to mindless and just a
habit.
Maybe just sit down and have a piece of cake or something a bit
more
formalized so that it does not seem to be endless and
mindless?????

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:27:40 -0600, Joyce
wrote:

I've been finding myself thinking the same thing the past 2
weeks. My activity
isn't soaring quite as high as yours, but much higher than it
ever has been for
me. My eating has remained pretty much the same. My weight
flucuates within the
same pound or so. My head is telling me I should eat more,
the
new diet program
tells me I should be eating many more calories ... so why
won't/can't I listen? I
am very afraid of eating more, afraid of where it might take
me.

Hmmmmmm. Should we just let Krys be our guinea pig? G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:29:37 -0800, Fred
wrote:

Occasionally, I think that with some of my activity levels
soaring,
that I am, also, not eating enough but an quite reluctant to
up
the
ante. I guess maybe journaling in detail would possibly
help.
But
figuring out the activity points is still a challenge. So,
yes,
courageous.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:43 -0000, "krys"

wrote:

yep - you will! *grin*
I like the thought of a courageous me........it feels very
strong

The homemade dinners are very automatic now. Ocassionally something new is
thrown into the mix, as I come across something that just sounds interesting
enough to try. But mostly, pretty standard fare. I am finding the biggest key to
MY success is limiting those meals away from home. Not so much the restaurant
trips, as I can control those well. It's the meals at other homes that do me in.
Like you mentioned ... cheese trays, desserts, crackers/dips/spreads - those are
my weaknesses - general munchie stuff. And carry-in pizza. sigh At least that
doesn't happen too often anymore. LOL

I thought spring was here, but I may have been mistaken. g Back to low 50's
today, frost last night and falling temps to follow this week. But they are
predicting back to the 60's late next week. We'll see.

Joyce

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:24:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

I don't know if it will be unconscious altho, I think home made
dinners are pretty automatic now. But just don't present me with a
cheese board or dessert array! That is where I need willpower.

Spring is here. We are planning on a steep snow climb today in what
we expect will be spring slush. To an old lookout just above I-90.
With any luck we will be able to slide down 1,000 to 2,000 feet on our
butts (glissading) voluntarily

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:16:06 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Same here. I would like to think that it is being handled by my subconcious, but
I'm not confident enough to believe that. I do have to think about those choices.
Such as right now ... have such a taste for chips, but I won't move in that
direction. So far I've successfully ignored all inner voices, if I do cave I'll
reach for that orange. And I also continue to fight. I gave in this evening, had
a wonderful dinner - but do know that I will definitely watch things the rest of
the week. It's becoming routine - I have to work to keep it that way. You and
that dried mango, haven't you learned yet? G

hahaha - I hope at least you will think about it before you try it again. I kind
of figured that the downhill trip had to be by brake alone the entire way. I'm
glad to hear at least that you didn't slide into anything or have a nasty spill.
Best to stay where it's warm now - winter is supposed to be over. G

Joyce

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:45:10 -0800, Fred wrote:

I think my current SETPOINT is being handled by _ME_ in an direct
effort of consciousness. That is I am fighting any tendency to let it
stray upward - like you say "working toward those same results." I
can't say that it is not something that drives me/us to eat or some
internal mechanism but this time, so far, I'm fighting back. (other
than opening the stupid bag of mangoes I got at Costco this morning
and inhaled on the drive home!)

Yes, I did try pedalling UP. It was not smart (afterthought, there
was NO PRE-thought whatsoever! (G)). Coming down was a consistent
pump the brakes over and over for about 2 miles till I was off the
snow and then care on the very wet roadway. The cold and
concentration were not fun. I will not do it again, well, at least,
not soon (G)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:27:18 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Hmmmmmmm, then thinking logically, or illogically, would that mean that if we
wanted to lose even more, we would first have to put weight on to shift that new
setpoint? Ahhhh, you know how I hate thinking. G I've never believed 100% in
the setpoint theory, in the past anyway. I now am beginning to wonder more about
it, thinking that there just may be something behind it. It seems much to easy to
me right now, to go up a pound or two and drop right back down - always hovering
in the same zone. I'm just not sure if it is because of the setpoint, or because
I am working towards those same results. I think I'm going to have to go with the
*who knows* answer.

You actually tried pedalling UP a snowcovered pass? Geeeesh, you are a silly man!
I'm not even sure that going down was an overly bright idea - bet you slipped and
slided your way all the way back to the car. I also bet those activity points
added up quickly from trying valiantly to keep your bicycle under control. G I
don't think you need any more excitement in your life.

Joyce

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:59:47 -0800, Fred wrote:

The other day another friend who is a bit older is trying to get back
into form. He used to run a lot but can't do it as much. But he went
to a specialist (providing services to Microsoft employees) altho
friend went to a free session. This doc discussed Setpoint but
suggested if you lose and keep it off, you probably have reset your
set point lower. Who knows. I really did not think that I ate so
much last week to account for a 2.6 up. But the home weight also
stayed kind of near there for a few more days. Shall I say it again -
who knows.

As for the weather, well, I thought I had escaped to sunny eastern
Washington . And it was sunny but windy. Until I drove the bike up
toward the pass. The sun changed to snow flurries as I started
pedaling. In a few miles, about 3, it changed to real snow and then
there was 2-3 inches of new snow on the roadway (still closed to cars
as they are plowing it open). I was skidding and finally turned
around. Downhill in slushy snow and frigid temps. 7 miles back down
to the car. Got back to friend's house where the sun was still
shining but I was thoroughly chilled.

Interesting day!!!!

We change clocks next weekend - there is hope.

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:50:52 -0600, Joyce wrote:

LOL! Not as confused as me. G But it's fun, I love the confusion (somewhat) -
seems to go right along with my current lifestyle.

Bottom line .. no, I really don't want to drop to the 125 - it is just one of
those numbers that for some reason jumps into my brain on occassion. I'd really
like to stay at 130 ... constantly. I'd like to know what to do to stay there,
instead of up 2, down 2, up 3, down ... you know. What confuses me is why doing
more treadmill, and eating less, the weight does not decline. Maybe there really
is something to that setpoint theory you've spoken of before? I do know there
really isn't a magic number - but I still am searching for it. G It would make
things so much easier.

The weather could have a lot to do with the lack of energy, as well as just having
too much to do and not sure where to even start (or what to do next). This has
been a crazy time here, crazier than usual. I have so much to get done, and it
just isn't happening ... at least not in the way I would like it to.

Joyce

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:44:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

Well, with all the info below, color me confused (G)

So, bottom line is you really do want to drop the bottom line to 125.

But also remember (down in that text somewhere...) that you canNOT
find a fix count of calories or points or whatever someone else
invents. Each day demands calories or points for what you throw at
your body. Treadmill - more. No treadmill and just reading - less.
Two treadmill sessions - even more. Etc. There is no one magic
number. I am trying to also remember that.

Maybe Spring is not coming soon enough which explains the lack of
energy. Or again, yes, being at goal with no aim or objective driving
the daily food issues makes things duller - get use to it (G) Virtue
or being at goal/maintenance is its own reward.



On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:47:09 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Yes, I am maintaining too. What I find odd though, is that I seem to maintain on
many different amounts of points. 25, 20, 27 (I have never really pushed my luck
much above the 27 point mark). I can go two weeks of watching very carefully,
staying at or below 23 points - which used to be what I needed to be at to lose on
ww ... now I only maintain there. Which is nice, but sometimes that dang 125
number flies into my head and makes me think ... but nothing I do seems to be able
to send me into that direction. THAT is what makes me wonder ... how much do I
*really* need to eat. Sometimes I think it would be nice to know this magical
number - be it calories, or points - just *something* a bit more firm and
tangible. And most days I now am finding I have very little energy - to do
anything much other than crawl out of bed, clean the kitchen, do my treadmill
(which is pushing my luck) ... that's about it. Why is this? Is it just the
weather, or is it from something else? I haven't felt this lack of energy for a
long, long time now - really since I started on ww. And then I could come up with
the explanation - I was overweight. NOW what is my excuse?

I have no idea why dietpower thinks I should be eating more. Maybe Lesanne can
jump in with her wonderful knowledge of the program here, and explain. I believe
the program is based on metabolic rates. Studies what I have entered as my
caloric intake, as well as suggested scientific metabolic rates, my personal data
(age/weight/height/lifestyle ... smoker/non-smoker, etc) ... daily weights,
exercise routines ... lumps it all together, sorts it all out, and comes up with a
mystical number of calories that says it is my metabolic rate. When I started
using this program on 3/1, it said my metabolic rate was 2005 ... since them my
weight has dropped 3 pounds (I am up a pound this week - heaven only knows why)
and my metabolic rate has now risen to 2235. This seems awfully high to me, and I
am not eating anywhere near that amount of calories. I am averaging 1700 calories
eaten, most days well below that (1500-1600) but a few high days thrown into the
mix. Guess I would rather see my metabolic rate say the same thing, if this is
where I should be maintaining. Adding 500 calories to THAT number does take me to
the suggested 2200 number ... but logic also says I should be losing by eating 500
calories less. See where I get very confused? Have I just stalled my body? Or
is the program still *catching up* and *sorting things out*?

I do think the program was over determining the exercise, based on the programming
error that Lesanne did find. I have since corrected that, relogged everything and
come up with what does sound like a truer number (using the calorieperhour.com
website). 40-60+ minutes of walking at 4MPH. I am calling it a 5% incline, since
I vary anywhere from the number 3-8 setting on the treadmill. I figured 5% was
right in the middle and probably where the machine would average it out over the
duration of the workout. Roughly 400 calories burned in an hour, give or take a
few ... not unreasonable and I don't think too high for what I am doing. (The lcd
on my machine says 700+, I defintely think that is way too high). Based on the
19 days I have used the program, 3 days in that time with no exercise logged (not
bad for 19 days!), I am averaging 252 calories in exercise per day.

And, unfortunately, I can't even really cut down on my snacking anymore. It has
become pretty nonexistant these days. I do have my snack mid afternoon ... a bowl
of cut up fruit (melons, pineapple, strawberries) or yogurt ... and a desert in
the evening (skinny cow) OR snack (again, usually the mixed fruit or an apple,
maybe some meringues about once a week) ... rarely both. That's it. No munchies,
no crunchies.

I guess in a nutshell, I am confused these days. Where do I go from here? I am
not unhappy maintaining, but once in a while I do think I would like to see the
silly scale move a bit further down .. just for grins. Guess I'm just always
finding something to question. So to really throw things off, today I feel like I
totally maxed everything out. Out for lunch, out for dinner - no good choices
made at either meal ... and I'm not fretting about it. G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:38:03 -0800, Fred wrote:

After I posted, I realized though, that I seem to be maintaining. Up
and down but only a pound here or there. So I would have to guess
that I am (and probably YOU are) eating about right. I think there
have been days I could have used a bit more energy and I am thinking
of adding a bit more food on outing jaunts. (getting to around 155 is
probably still in the back of my mind when I have my doubts or post
like I did. But for maintaining - I AM MAINTAINING)

So, why does that program (diet power?? was it?) think you should eat
more? Does it have any explanations or background? Either that or it
may be mis-calculating exercise/activity calories???

I think really what I'm thinking is that it would be nice to cut down
the snacking which sometimes seems to mindless and just a habit.
Maybe just sit down and have a piece of cake or something a bit more
formalized so that it does not seem to be endless and mindless?????

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:27:40 -0600, Joyce wrote:

I've been finding myself thinking the same thing the past 2 weeks. My activity
isn't soaring quite as high as yours, but much higher than it ever has been for
me. My eating has remained pretty much the same. My weight flucuates within the
same pound or so. My head is telling me I should eat more, the new diet program
tells me I should be eating many more calories ... so why won't/can't I listen? I
am very afraid of eating more, afraid of where it might take me.

Hmmmmmm. Should we just let Krys be our guinea pig? G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:29:37 -0800, Fred wrote:

Occasionally, I think that with some of my activity levels soaring,
that I am, also, not eating enough but an quite reluctant to up the
ante. I guess maybe journaling in detail would possibly help. But
figuring out the activity points is still a challenge. So, yes,
courageous.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:43 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

yep - you will! *grin*
I like the thought of a courageous me........it feels very strong

I guess all we can do is continue what we currently do. We are human, will run
into these occassions. We just have to remember everything is ok in moderation,
and eventually life will resume normalcy ... as long as normalcy is what we
practice NOW, not pre ww days. At least that is what I am currently trying to
tell myself. I am now entering the celebration season ... family
birthdays/mothers day/fathers day ... something every dang month. I've survived
before, I will continue to survive. I have to.

It has been cool here, temps started changing today. I believe we hit mid 60's
where I'm at, and no winds. Tomorrow is predicting 70's - weekend will be 60's.
It is a nice change of pace and makes spring look more promising.

Joyce

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:29:05 -0700, Fred wrote:

A perfect example of this weekend. I was visiting a friend in Eastern
Washington. Dinner at her place was pretty good but then there was a
birthday dinner at someone's home the next night and another dinner at
another home. The birthday place had all kinds of absolutely tempting
items from cheeses, to cakes to cookies to chips to already dressed
salads. The next dinner was okay until dessert presented itself!!!!

Well, I missed Sun's record high of 80F (more?) in Seattle but it was
quite warm where I was, too. I would have to guess that it will reach
you folks in a day or two. I guess it was 90F in the foothill areas
due to Chinook winds coming downslope. We don't see those temps in
the real Summer very often (thankfully)

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:41:16 -0500, Joyce wrote:

The homemade dinners are very automatic now. Ocassionally something new is
thrown into the mix, as I come across something that just sounds interesting
enough to try. But mostly, pretty standard fare. I am finding the biggest key to
MY success is limiting those meals away from home. Not so much the restaurant
trips, as I can control those well. It's the meals at other homes that do me in.
Like you mentioned ... cheese trays, desserts, crackers/dips/spreads - those are
my weaknesses - general munchie stuff. And carry-in pizza. sigh At least that
doesn't happen too often anymore. LOL

I thought spring was here, but I may have been mistaken. g Back to low 50's
today, frost last night and falling temps to follow this week. But they are
predicting back to the 60's late next week. We'll see.

Joyce

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:24:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

I don't know if it will be unconscious altho, I think home made
dinners are pretty automatic now. But just don't present me with a
cheese board or dessert array! That is where I need willpower.

Spring is here. We are planning on a steep snow climb today in what
we expect will be spring slush. To an old lookout just above I-90.
With any luck we will be able to slide down 1,000 to 2,000 feet on our
butts (glissading) voluntarily

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:16:06 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Same here. I would like to think that it is being handled by my subconcious, but
I'm not confident enough to believe that. I do have to think about those choices.
Such as right now ... have such a taste for chips, but I won't move in that
direction. So far I've successfully ignored all inner voices, if I do cave I'll
reach for that orange. And I also continue to fight. I gave in this evening, had
a wonderful dinner - but do know that I will definitely watch things the rest of
the week. It's becoming routine - I have to work to keep it that way. You and
that dried mango, haven't you learned yet? G

hahaha - I hope at least you will think about it before you try it again. I kind
of figured that the downhill trip had to be by brake alone the entire way. I'm
glad to hear at least that you didn't slide into anything or have a nasty spill.
Best to stay where it's warm now - winter is supposed to be over. G

Joyce

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:45:10 -0800, Fred wrote:

I think my current SETPOINT is being handled by _ME_ in an direct
effort of consciousness. That is I am fighting any tendency to let it
stray upward - like you say "working toward those same results." I
can't say that it is not something that drives me/us to eat or some
internal mechanism but this time, so far, I'm fighting back. (other
than opening the stupid bag of mangoes I got at Costco this morning
and inhaled on the drive home!)

Yes, I did try pedalling UP. It was not smart (afterthought, there
was NO PRE-thought whatsoever! (G)). Coming down was a consistent
pump the brakes over and over for about 2 miles till I was off the
snow and then care on the very wet roadway. The cold and
concentration were not fun. I will not do it again, well, at least,
not soon (G)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:27:18 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Hmmmmmmm, then thinking logically, or illogically, would that mean that if we
wanted to lose even more, we would first have to put weight on to shift that new
setpoint? Ahhhh, you know how I hate thinking. G I've never believed 100% in
the setpoint theory, in the past anyway. I now am beginning to wonder more about
it, thinking that there just may be something behind it. It seems much to easy to
me right now, to go up a pound or two and drop right back down - always hovering
in the same zone. I'm just not sure if it is because of the setpoint, or because
I am working towards those same results. I think I'm going to have to go with the
*who knows* answer.

You actually tried pedalling UP a snowcovered pass? Geeeesh, you are a silly man!
I'm not even sure that going down was an overly bright idea - bet you slipped and
slided your way all the way back to the car. I also bet those activity points
added up quickly from trying valiantly to keep your bicycle under control. G I
don't think you need any more excitement in your life.

Joyce

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:59:47 -0800, Fred wrote:

The other day another friend who is a bit older is trying to get back
into form. He used to run a lot but can't do it as much. But he went
to a specialist (providing services to Microsoft employees) altho
friend went to a free session. This doc discussed Setpoint but
suggested if you lose and keep it off, you probably have reset your
set point lower. Who knows. I really did not think that I ate so
much last week to account for a 2.6 up. But the home weight also
stayed kind of near there for a few more days. Shall I say it again -
who knows.

As for the weather, well, I thought I had escaped to sunny eastern
Washington . And it was sunny but windy. Until I drove the bike up
toward the pass. The sun changed to snow flurries as I started
pedaling. In a few miles, about 3, it changed to real snow and then
there was 2-3 inches of new snow on the roadway (still closed to cars
as they are plowing it open). I was skidding and finally turned
around. Downhill in slushy snow and frigid temps. 7 miles back down
to the car. Got back to friend's house where the sun was still
shining but I was thoroughly chilled.

Interesting day!!!!

We change clocks next weekend - there is hope.

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:50:52 -0600, Joyce wrote:

LOL! Not as confused as me. G But it's fun, I love the confusion (somewhat) -
seems to go right along with my current lifestyle.

Bottom line .. no, I really don't want to drop to the 125 - it is just one of
those numbers that for some reason jumps into my brain on occassion. I'd really
like to stay at 130 ... constantly. I'd like to know what to do to stay there,
instead of up 2, down 2, up 3, down ... you know. What confuses me is why doing
more treadmill, and eating less, the weight does not decline. Maybe there really
is something to that setpoint theory you've spoken of before? I do know there
really isn't a magic number - but I still am searching for it. G It would make
things so much easier.

The weather could have a lot to do with the lack of energy, as well as just having
too much to do and not sure where to even start (or what to do next). This has
been a crazy time here, crazier than usual. I have so much to get done, and it
just isn't happening ... at least not in the way I would like it to.

Joyce

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:44:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

Well, with all the info below, color me confused (G)

So, bottom line is you really do want to drop the bottom line to 125.

But also remember (down in that text somewhere...) that you canNOT
find a fix count of calories or points or whatever someone else
invents. Each day demands calories or points for what you throw at
your body. Treadmill - more. No treadmill and just reading - less.
Two treadmill sessions - even more. Etc. There is no one magic
number. I am trying to also remember that.

Maybe Spring is not coming soon enough which explains the lack of
energy. Or again, yes, being at goal with no aim or objective driving
the daily food issues makes things duller - get use to it (G) Virtue
or being at goal/maintenance is its own reward.



On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:47:09 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Yes, I am maintaining too. What I find odd though, is that I seem to maintain on
many different amounts of points. 25, 20, 27 (I have never really pushed my luck
much above the 27 point mark). I can go two weeks of watching very carefully,
staying at or below 23 points - which used to be what I needed to be at to lose on
ww ... now I only maintain there. Which is nice, but sometimes that dang 125
number flies into my head and makes me think ... but nothing I do seems to be able
to send me into that direction. THAT is what makes me wonder ... how much do I
*really* need to eat. Sometimes I think it would be nice to know this magical
number - be it calories, or points - just *something* a bit more firm and
tangible. And most days I now am finding I have very little energy - to do
anything much other than crawl out of bed, clean the kitchen, do my treadmill
(which is pushing my luck) ... that's about it. Why is this? Is it just the
weather, or is it from something else? I haven't felt this lack of energy for a
long, long time now - really since I started on ww. And then I could come up with
the explanation - I was overweight. NOW what is my excuse?

I have no idea why dietpower thinks I should be eating more. Maybe Lesanne can
jump in with her wonderful knowledge of the program here, and explain. I believe
the program is based on metabolic rates. Studies what I have entered as my
caloric intake, as well as suggested scientific metabolic rates, my personal data
(age/weight/height/lifestyle ... smoker/non-smoker, etc) ... daily weights,
exercise routines ... lumps it all together, sorts it all out, and comes up with a
mystical number of calories that says it is my metabolic rate. When I started
using this program on 3/1, it said my metabolic rate was 2005 ... since them my
weight has dropped 3 pounds (I am up a pound this week - heaven only knows why)
and my metabolic rate has now risen to 2235. This seems awfully high to me, and I
am not eating anywhere near that amount of calories. I am averaging 1700 calories
eaten, most days well below that (1500-1600) but a few high days thrown into the
mix. Guess I would rather see my metabolic rate say the same thing, if this is
where I should be maintaining. Adding 500 calories to THAT number does take me to
the suggested 2200 number ... but logic also says I should be losing by eating 500
calories less. See where I get very confused? Have I just stalled my body? Or
is the program still *catching up* and *sorting things out*?

I do think the program was over determining the exercise, based on the programming
error that Lesanne did find. I have since corrected that, relogged everything and
come up with what does sound like a truer number (using the calorieperhour.com
website). 40-60+ minutes of walking at 4MPH. I am calling it a 5% incline, since
I vary anywhere from the number 3-8 setting on the treadmill. I figured 5% was
right in the middle and probably where the machine would average it out over the
duration of the workout. Roughly 400 calories burned in an hour, give or take a
few ... not unreasonable and I don't think too high for what I am doing. (The lcd
on my machine says 700+, I defintely think that is way too high). Based on the
19 days I have used the program, 3 days in that time with no exercise logged (not
bad for 19 days!), I am averaging 252 calories in exercise per day.

And, unfortunately, I can't even really cut down on my snacking anymore. It has
become pretty nonexistant these days. I do have my snack mid afternoon ... a bowl
of cut up fruit (melons, pineapple, strawberries) or yogurt ... and a desert in
the evening (skinny cow) OR snack (again, usually the mixed fruit or an apple,
maybe some meringues about once a week) ... rarely both. That's it. No munchies,
no crunchies.

I guess in a nutshell, I am confused these days. Where do I go from here? I am
not unhappy maintaining, but once in a while I do think I would like to see the
silly scale move a bit further down .. just for grins. Guess I'm just always
finding something to question. So to really throw things off, today I feel like I
totally maxed everything out. Out for lunch, out for dinner - no good choices
made at either meal ... and I'm not fretting about it. G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:38:03 -0800, Fred wrote:

After I posted, I realized though, that I seem to be maintaining. Up
and down but only a pound here or there. So I would have to guess
that I am (and probably YOU are) eating about right. I think there
have been days I could have used a bit more energy and I am thinking
of adding a bit more food on outing jaunts. (getting to around 155 is
probably still in the back of my mind when I have my doubts or post
like I did. But for maintaining - I AM MAINTAINING)

So, why does that program (diet power?? was it?) think you should eat
more? Does it have any explanations or background? Either that or it
may be mis-calculating exercise/activity calories???

I think really what I'm thinking is that it would be nice to cut down
the snacking which sometimes seems to mindless and just a habit.
Maybe just sit down and have a piece of cake or something a bit more
formalized so that it does not seem to be endless and mindless?????

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:27:40 -0600, Joyce wrote:

I've been finding myself thinking the same thing the past 2 weeks. My activity
isn't soaring quite as high as yours, but much higher than it ever has been for
me. My eating has remained pretty much the same. My weight flucuates within the
same pound or so. My head is telling me I should eat more, the new diet program
tells me I should be eating many more calories ... so why won't/can't I listen? I
am very afraid of eating more, afraid of where it might take me.

Hmmmmmm. Should we just let Krys be our guinea pig? G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:29:37 -0800, Fred wrote:

Occasionally, I think that with some of my activity levels soaring,
that I am, also, not eating enough but an quite reluctant to up the
ante. I guess maybe journaling in detail would possibly help. But
figuring out the activity points is still a challenge. So, yes,
courageous.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:43 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

yep - you will! *grin*
I like the thought of a courageous me........it feels very strong

Ahhhh, but see ... the birthday is today! I surprised you by getting online early
- didn't I? hehehe

I'm smiling right now, brother got me going wireless on the notebook - hooked me
up with something called a net-extender. I think it's supposed to be for gaming,
but works perfectly for what I need ... so far anyway. We'll see if hubby likes
me typing away while keeping him company. G

Oh no, you don't have to send those cooler temps our way. I am soooooo done with
50's! It is 72 and sunny at the moment, a wonderfully lovely day. Calling for
80's tomorrow.

Joyce

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 06:42:09 -0700, Fred wrote:

NORMAL - yes. Let's continue to work on it.

Hope you had a happy birthday, yesterday.

We are back to mid-50's and rain showers on and off and ON and ON!

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 03:32:43 -0500, Joyce wrote:

I guess all we can do is continue what we currently do. We are human, will run
into these occassions. We just have to remember everything is ok in moderation,
and eventually life will resume normalcy ... as long as normalcy is what we
practice NOW, not pre ww days. At least that is what I am currently trying to
tell myself. I am now entering the celebration season ... family
birthdays/mothers day/fathers day ... something every dang month. I've survived
before, I will continue to survive. I have to.

It has been cool here, temps started changing today. I believe we hit mid 60's
where I'm at, and no winds. Tomorrow is predicting 70's - weekend will be 60's.
It is a nice change of pace and makes spring look more promising.

Joyce

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:29:05 -0700, Fred wrote:

A perfect example of this weekend. I was visiting a friend in Eastern
Washington. Dinner at her place was pretty good but then there was a
birthday dinner at someone's home the next night and another dinner at
another home. The birthday place had all kinds of absolutely tempting
items from cheeses, to cakes to cookies to chips to already dressed
salads. The next dinner was okay until dessert presented itself!!!!

Well, I missed Sun's record high of 80F (more?) in Seattle but it was
quite warm where I was, too. I would have to guess that it will reach
you folks in a day or two. I guess it was 90F in the foothill areas
due to Chinook winds coming downslope. We don't see those temps in
the real Summer very often (thankfully)

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:41:16 -0500, Joyce wrote:

The homemade dinners are very automatic now. Ocassionally something new is
thrown into the mix, as I come across something that just sounds interesting
enough to try. But mostly, pretty standard fare. I am finding the biggest key to
MY success is limiting those meals away from home. Not so much the restaurant
trips, as I can control those well. It's the meals at other homes that do me in.
Like you mentioned ... cheese trays, desserts, crackers/dips/spreads - those are
my weaknesses - general munchie stuff. And carry-in pizza. sigh At least that
doesn't happen too often anymore. LOL

I thought spring was here, but I may have been mistaken. g Back to low 50's
today, frost last night and falling temps to follow this week. But they are
predicting back to the 60's late next week. We'll see.

Joyce

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:24:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

I don't know if it will be unconscious altho, I think home made
dinners are pretty automatic now. But just don't present me with a
cheese board or dessert array! That is where I need willpower.

Spring is here. We are planning on a steep snow climb today in what
we expect will be spring slush. To an old lookout just above I-90.
With any luck we will be able to slide down 1,000 to 2,000 feet on our
butts (glissading) voluntarily

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:16:06 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Same here. I would like to think that it is being handled by my subconcious, but
I'm not confident enough to believe that. I do have to think about those choices.
Such as right now ... have such a taste for chips, but I won't move in that
direction. So far I've successfully ignored all inner voices, if I do cave I'll
reach for that orange. And I also continue to fight. I gave in this evening, had
a wonderful dinner - but do know that I will definitely watch things the rest of
the week. It's becoming routine - I have to work to keep it that way. You and
that dried mango, haven't you learned yet? G

hahaha - I hope at least you will think about it before you try it again. I kind
of figured that the downhill trip had to be by brake alone the entire way. I'm
glad to hear at least that you didn't slide into anything or have a nasty spill.
Best to stay where it's warm now - winter is supposed to be over. G

Joyce

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:45:10 -0800, Fred wrote:

I think my current SETPOINT is being handled by _ME_ in an direct
effort of consciousness. That is I am fighting any tendency to let it
stray upward - like you say "working toward those same results." I
can't say that it is not something that drives me/us to eat or some
internal mechanism but this time, so far, I'm fighting back. (other
than opening the stupid bag of mangoes I got at Costco this morning
and inhaled on the drive home!)

Yes, I did try pedalling UP. It was not smart (afterthought, there
was NO PRE-thought whatsoever! (G)). Coming down was a consistent
pump the brakes over and over for about 2 miles till I was off the
snow and then care on the very wet roadway. The cold and
concentration were not fun. I will not do it again, well, at least,
not soon (G)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:27:18 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Hmmmmmmm, then thinking logically, or illogically, would that mean that if we
wanted to lose even more, we would first have to put weight on to shift that new
setpoint? Ahhhh, you know how I hate thinking. G I've never believed 100% in
the setpoint theory, in the past anyway. I now am beginning to wonder more about
it, thinking that there just may be something behind it. It seems much to easy to
me right now, to go up a pound or two and drop right back down - always hovering
in the same zone. I'm just not sure if it is because of the setpoint, or because
I am working towards those same results. I think I'm going to have to go with the
*who knows* answer.

You actually tried pedalling UP a snowcovered pass? Geeeesh, you are a silly man!
I'm not even sure that going down was an overly bright idea - bet you slipped and
slided your way all the way back to the car. I also bet those activity points
added up quickly from trying valiantly to keep your bicycle under control. G I
don't think you need any more excitement in your life.

Joyce

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:59:47 -0800, Fred wrote:

The other day another friend who is a bit older is trying to get back
into form. He used to run a lot but can't do it as much. But he went
to a specialist (providing services to Microsoft employees) altho
friend went to a free session. This doc discussed Setpoint but
suggested if you lose and keep it off, you probably have reset your
set point lower. Who knows. I really did not think that I ate so
much last week to account for a 2.6 up. But the home weight also
stayed kind of near there for a few more days. Shall I say it again -
who knows.

As for the weather, well, I thought I had escaped to sunny eastern
Washington . And it was sunny but windy. Until I drove the bike up
toward the pass. The sun changed to snow flurries as I started
pedaling. In a few miles, about 3, it changed to real snow and then
there was 2-3 inches of new snow on the roadway (still closed to cars
as they are plowing it open). I was skidding and finally turned
around. Downhill in slushy snow and frigid temps. 7 miles back down
to the car. Got back to friend's house where the sun was still
shining but I was thoroughly chilled.

Interesting day!!!!

We change clocks next weekend - there is hope.

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:50:52 -0600, Joyce wrote:

LOL! Not as confused as me. G But it's fun, I love the confusion (somewhat) -
seems to go right along with my current lifestyle.

Bottom line .. no, I really don't want to drop to the 125 - it is just one of
those numbers that for some reason jumps into my brain on occassion. I'd really
like to stay at 130 ... constantly. I'd like to know what to do to stay there,
instead of up 2, down 2, up 3, down ... you know. What confuses me is why doing
more treadmill, and eating less, the weight does not decline. Maybe there really
is something to that setpoint theory you've spoken of before? I do know there
really isn't a magic number - but I still am searching for it. G It would make
things so much easier.

The weather could have a lot to do with the lack of energy, as well as just having
too much to do and not sure where to even start (or what to do next). This has
been a crazy time here, crazier than usual. I have so much to get done, and it
just isn't happening ... at least not in the way I would like it to.

Joyce

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:44:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

Well, with all the info below, color me confused (G)

So, bottom line is you really do want to drop the bottom line to 125.

But also remember (down in that text somewhere...) that you canNOT
find a fix count of calories or points or whatever someone else
invents. Each day demands calories or points for what you throw at
your body. Treadmill - more. No treadmill and just reading - less.
Two treadmill sessions - even more. Etc. There is no one magic
number. I am trying to also remember that.

Maybe Spring is not coming soon enough which explains the lack of
energy. Or again, yes, being at goal with no aim or objective driving
the daily food issues makes things duller - get use to it (G) Virtue
or being at goal/maintenance is its own reward.



On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:47:09 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Yes, I am maintaining too. What I find odd though, is that I seem to maintain on
many different amounts of points. 25, 20, 27 (I have never really pushed my luck
much above the 27 point mark). I can go two weeks of watching very carefully,
staying at or below 23 points - which used to be what I needed to be at to lose on
ww ... now I only maintain there. Which is nice, but sometimes that dang 125
number flies into my head and makes me think ... but nothing I do seems to be able
to send me into that direction. THAT is what makes me wonder ... how much do I
*really* need to eat. Sometimes I think it would be nice to know this magical
number - be it calories, or points - just *something* a bit more firm and
tangible. And most days I now am finding I have very little energy - to do
anything much other than crawl out of bed, clean the kitchen, do my treadmill
(which is pushing my luck) ... that's about it. Why is this? Is it just the
weather, or is it from something else? I haven't felt this lack of energy for a
long, long time now - really since I started on ww. And then I could come up with
the explanation - I was overweight. NOW what is my excuse?

I have no idea why dietpower thinks I should be eating more. Maybe Lesanne can
jump in with her wonderful knowledge of the program here, and explain. I believe
the program is based on metabolic rates. Studies what I have entered as my
caloric intake, as well as suggested scientific metabolic rates, my personal data
(age/weight/height/lifestyle ... smoker/non-smoker, etc) ... daily weights,
exercise routines ... lumps it all together, sorts it all out, and comes up with a
mystical number of calories that says it is my metabolic rate. When I started
using this program on 3/1, it said my metabolic rate was 2005 ... since them my
weight has dropped 3 pounds (I am up a pound this week - heaven only knows why)
and my metabolic rate has now risen to 2235. This seems awfully high to me, and I
am not eating anywhere near that amount of calories. I am averaging 1700 calories
eaten, most days well below that (1500-1600) but a few high days thrown into the
mix. Guess I would rather see my metabolic rate say the same thing, if this is
where I should be maintaining. Adding 500 calories to THAT number does take me to
the suggested 2200 number ... but logic also says I should be losing by eating 500
calories less. See where I get very confused? Have I just stalled my body? Or
is the program still *catching up* and *sorting things out*?

I do think the program was over determining the exercise, based on the programming
error that Lesanne did find. I have since corrected that, relogged everything and
come up with what does sound like a truer number (using the calorieperhour.com
website). 40-60+ minutes of walking at 4MPH. I am calling it a 5% incline, since
I vary anywhere from the number 3-8 setting on the treadmill. I figured 5% was
right in the middle and probably where the machine would average it out over the
duration of the workout. Roughly 400 calories burned in an hour, give or take a
few ... not unreasonable and I don't think too high for what I am doing. (The lcd
on my machine says 700+, I defintely think that is way too high). Based on the
19 days I have used the program, 3 days in that time with no exercise logged (not
bad for 19 days!), I am averaging 252 calories in exercise per day.

And, unfortunately, I can't even really cut down on my snacking anymore. It has
become pretty nonexistant these days. I do have my snack mid afternoon ... a bowl
of cut up fruit (melons, pineapple, strawberries) or yogurt ... and a desert in
the evening (skinny cow) OR snack (again, usually the mixed fruit or an apple,
maybe some meringues about once a week) ... rarely both. That's it. No munchies,
no crunchies.

I guess in a nutshell, I am confused these days. Where do I go from here? I am
not unhappy maintaining, but once in a while I do think I would like to see the
silly scale move a bit further down .. just for grins. Guess I'm just always
finding something to question. So to really throw things off, today I feel like I
totally maxed everything out. Out for lunch, out for dinner - no good choices
made at either meal ... and I'm not fretting about it. G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:38:03 -0800, Fred wrote:

After I posted, I realized though, that I seem to be maintaining. Up
and down but only a pound here or there. So I would have to guess
that I am (and probably YOU are) eating about right. I think there
have been days I could have used a bit more energy and I am thinking
of adding a bit more food on outing jaunts. (getting to around 155 is
probably still in the back of my mind when I have my doubts or post
like I did. But for maintaining - I AM MAINTAINING)

So, why does that program (diet power?? was it?) think you should eat
more? Does it have any explanations or background? Either that or it
may be mis-calculating exercise/activity calories???

I think really what I'm thinking is that it would be nice to cut down
the snacking which sometimes seems to mindless and just a habit.
Maybe just sit down and have a piece of cake or something a bit more
formalized so that it does not seem to be endless and mindless?????

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:27:40 -0600, Joyce wrote:

I've been finding myself thinking the same thing the past 2 weeks. My activity
isn't soaring quite as high as yours, but much higher than it ever has been for
me. My eating has remained pretty much the same. My weight flucuates within the
same pound or so. My head is telling me I should eat more, the new diet program
tells me I should be eating many more calories ... so why won't/can't I listen? I
am very afraid of eating more, afraid of where it might take me.

Hmmmmmm. Should we just let Krys be our guinea pig? G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:29:37 -0800, Fred wrote:

Occasionally, I think that with some of my activity levels soaring,
that I am, also, not eating enough but an quite reluctant to up the
ante. I guess maybe journaling in detail would possibly help. But
figuring out the activity points is still a challenge. So, yes,
courageous.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:43 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

yep - you will! *grin*
I like the thought of a courageous me........it feels very strong

Yup, we got the fair weather - then you passed that cool weather our way too.
Shame on you! It's been back in the 50's this week - cool and damp, lots of rain.
Tornados blew through the surrounding areas yesterday, we somehow managed to miss
every storm system. I think I must live in a hole somewhere. g

The wireless is nice, although I haven't been lugging the laptop through the
house. And it isn't totally wireless. I still have to plug the signal receiver
into a wall outlet and connect it to the computer. The only thing I am avoiding
is stringing one more set of cables through the walls/floors/ceilings of the
house. It does accomplish what I was looking for.

Joyce

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:50:26 -0700, Fred wrote:

Ah, wireless is nice. Enjoy is freedom.

So you did get our fair weather. Cool again today. Same through the
weekend.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:51:43 -0500, Joyce wrote:

Ahhhh, but see ... the birthday is today! I surprised you by getting online early
- didn't I? hehehe

I'm smiling right now, brother got me going wireless on the notebook - hooked me
up with something called a net-extender. I think it's supposed to be for gaming,
but works perfectly for what I need ... so far anyway. We'll see if hubby likes
me typing away while keeping him company. G

Oh no, you don't have to send those cooler temps our way. I am soooooo done with
50's! It is 72 and sunny at the moment, a wonderfully lovely day. Calling for
80's tomorrow.

Joyce

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 06:42:09 -0700, Fred wrote:

NORMAL - yes. Let's continue to work on it.

Hope you had a happy birthday, yesterday.

We are back to mid-50's and rain showers on and off and ON and ON!

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 03:32:43 -0500, Joyce wrote:

I guess all we can do is continue what we currently do. We are human, will run
into these occassions. We just have to remember everything is ok in moderation,
and eventually life will resume normalcy ... as long as normalcy is what we
practice NOW, not pre ww days. At least that is what I am currently trying to
tell myself. I am now entering the celebration season ... family
birthdays/mothers day/fathers day ... something every dang month. I've survived
before, I will continue to survive. I have to.

It has been cool here, temps started changing today. I believe we hit mid 60's
where I'm at, and no winds. Tomorrow is predicting 70's - weekend will be 60's.
It is a nice change of pace and makes spring look more promising.

Joyce

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:29:05 -0700, Fred wrote:

A perfect example of this weekend. I was visiting a friend in Eastern
Washington. Dinner at her place was pretty good but then there was a
birthday dinner at someone's home the next night and another dinner at
another home. The birthday place had all kinds of absolutely tempting
items from cheeses, to cakes to cookies to chips to already dressed
salads. The next dinner was okay until dessert presented itself!!!!

Well, I missed Sun's record high of 80F (more?) in Seattle but it was
quite warm where I was, too. I would have to guess that it will reach
you folks in a day or two. I guess it was 90F in the foothill areas
due to Chinook winds coming downslope. We don't see those temps in
the real Summer very often (thankfully)

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:41:16 -0500, Joyce wrote:

The homemade dinners are very automatic now. Ocassionally something new is
thrown into the mix, as I come across something that just sounds interesting
enough to try. But mostly, pretty standard fare. I am finding the biggest key to
MY success is limiting those meals away from home. Not so much the restaurant
trips, as I can control those well. It's the meals at other homes that do me in.
Like you mentioned ... cheese trays, desserts, crackers/dips/spreads - those are
my weaknesses - general munchie stuff. And carry-in pizza. sigh At least that
doesn't happen too often anymore. LOL

I thought spring was here, but I may have been mistaken. g Back to low 50's
today, frost last night and falling temps to follow this week. But they are
predicting back to the 60's late next week. We'll see.

Joyce

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:24:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

I don't know if it will be unconscious altho, I think home made
dinners are pretty automatic now. But just don't present me with a
cheese board or dessert array! That is where I need willpower.

Spring is here. We are planning on a steep snow climb today in what
we expect will be spring slush. To an old lookout just above I-90.
With any luck we will be able to slide down 1,000 to 2,000 feet on our
butts (glissading) voluntarily

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:16:06 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Same here. I would like to think that it is being handled by my subconcious, but
I'm not confident enough to believe that. I do have to think about those choices.
Such as right now ... have such a taste for chips, but I won't move in that
direction. So far I've successfully ignored all inner voices, if I do cave I'll
reach for that orange. And I also continue to fight. I gave in this evening, had
a wonderful dinner - but do know that I will definitely watch things the rest of
the week. It's becoming routine - I have to work to keep it that way. You and
that dried mango, haven't you learned yet? G

hahaha - I hope at least you will think about it before you try it again. I kind
of figured that the downhill trip had to be by brake alone the entire way. I'm
glad to hear at least that you didn't slide into anything or have a nasty spill.
Best to stay where it's warm now - winter is supposed to be over. G

Joyce

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:45:10 -0800, Fred wrote:

I think my current SETPOINT is being handled by _ME_ in an direct
effort of consciousness. That is I am fighting any tendency to let it
stray upward - like you say "working toward those same results." I
can't say that it is not something that drives me/us to eat or some
internal mechanism but this time, so far, I'm fighting back. (other
than opening the stupid bag of mangoes I got at Costco this morning
and inhaled on the drive home!)

Yes, I did try pedalling UP. It was not smart (afterthought, there
was NO PRE-thought whatsoever! (G)). Coming down was a consistent
pump the brakes over and over for about 2 miles till I was off the
snow and then care on the very wet roadway. The cold and
concentration were not fun. I will not do it again, well, at least,
not soon (G)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:27:18 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Hmmmmmmm, then thinking logically, or illogically, would that mean that if we
wanted to lose even more, we would first have to put weight on to shift that new
setpoint? Ahhhh, you know how I hate thinking. G I've never believed 100% in
the setpoint theory, in the past anyway. I now am beginning to wonder more about
it, thinking that there just may be something behind it. It seems much to easy to
me right now, to go up a pound or two and drop right back down - always hovering
in the same zone. I'm just not sure if it is because of the setpoint, or because
I am working towards those same results. I think I'm going to have to go with the
*who knows* answer.

You actually tried pedalling UP a snowcovered pass? Geeeesh, you are a silly man!
I'm not even sure that going down was an overly bright idea - bet you slipped and
slided your way all the way back to the car. I also bet those activity points
added up quickly from trying valiantly to keep your bicycle under control. G I
don't think you need any more excitement in your life.

Joyce

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:59:47 -0800, Fred wrote:

The other day another friend who is a bit older is trying to get back
into form. He used to run a lot but can't do it as much. But he went
to a specialist (providing services to Microsoft employees) altho
friend went to a free session. This doc discussed Setpoint but
suggested if you lose and keep it off, you probably have reset your
set point lower. Who knows. I really did not think that I ate so
much last week to account for a 2.6 up. But the home weight also
stayed kind of near there for a few more days. Shall I say it again -
who knows.

As for the weather, well, I thought I had escaped to sunny eastern
Washington . And it was sunny but windy. Until I drove the bike up
toward the pass. The sun changed to snow flurries as I started
pedaling. In a few miles, about 3, it changed to real snow and then
there was 2-3 inches of new snow on the roadway (still closed to cars
as they are plowing it open). I was skidding and finally turned
around. Downhill in slushy snow and frigid temps. 7 miles back down
to the car. Got back to friend's house where the sun was still
shining but I was thoroughly chilled.

Interesting day!!!!

We change clocks next weekend - there is hope.

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:50:52 -0600, Joyce wrote:

LOL! Not as confused as me. G But it's fun, I love the confusion (somewhat) -
seems to go right along with my current lifestyle.

Bottom line .. no, I really don't want to drop to the 125 - it is just one of
those numbers that for some reason jumps into my brain on occassion. I'd really
like to stay at 130 ... constantly. I'd like to know what to do to stay there,
instead of up 2, down 2, up 3, down ... you know. What confuses me is why doing
more treadmill, and eating less, the weight does not decline. Maybe there really
is something to that setpoint theory you've spoken of before? I do know there
really isn't a magic number - but I still am searching for it. G It would make
things so much easier.

The weather could have a lot to do with the lack of energy, as well as just having
too much to do and not sure where to even start (or what to do next). This has
been a crazy time here, crazier than usual. I have so much to get done, and it
just isn't happening ... at least not in the way I would like it to.

Joyce

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:44:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

Well, with all the info below, color me confused (G)

So, bottom line is you really do want to drop the bottom line to 125.

But also remember (down in that text somewhere...) that you canNOT
find a fix count of calories or points or whatever someone else
invents. Each day demands calories or points for what you throw at
your body. Treadmill - more. No treadmill and just reading - less.
Two treadmill sessions - even more. Etc. There is no one magic
number. I am trying to also remember that.

Maybe Spring is not coming soon enough which explains the lack of
energy. Or again, yes, being at goal with no aim or objective driving
the daily food issues makes things duller - get use to it (G) Virtue
or being at goal/maintenance is its own reward.



On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:47:09 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Yes, I am maintaining too. What I find odd though, is that I seem to maintain on
many different amounts of points. 25, 20, 27 (I have never really pushed my luck
much above the 27 point mark). I can go two weeks of watching very carefully,
staying at or below 23 points - which used to be what I needed to be at to lose on
ww ... now I only maintain there. Which is nice, but sometimes that dang 125
number flies into my head and makes me think ... but nothing I do seems to be able
to send me into that direction. THAT is what makes me wonder ... how much do I
*really* need to eat. Sometimes I think it would be nice to know this magical
number - be it calories, or points - just *something* a bit more firm and
tangible. And most days I now am finding I have very little energy - to do
anything much other than crawl out of bed, clean the kitchen, do my treadmill
(which is pushing my luck) ... that's about it. Why is this? Is it just the
weather, or is it from something else? I haven't felt this lack of energy for a
long, long time now - really since I started on ww. And then I could come up with
the explanation - I was overweight. NOW what is my excuse?

I have no idea why dietpower thinks I should be eating more. Maybe Lesanne can
jump in with her wonderful knowledge of the program here, and explain. I believe
the program is based on metabolic rates. Studies what I have entered as my
caloric intake, as well as suggested scientific metabolic rates, my personal data
(age/weight/height/lifestyle ... smoker/non-smoker, etc) ... daily weights,
exercise routines ... lumps it all together, sorts it all out, and comes up with a
mystical number of calories that says it is my metabolic rate. When I started
using this program on 3/1, it said my metabolic rate was 2005 ... since them my
weight has dropped 3 pounds (I am up a pound this week - heaven only knows why)
and my metabolic rate has now risen to 2235. This seems awfully high to me, and I
am not eating anywhere near that amount of calories. I am averaging 1700 calories
eaten, most days well below that (1500-1600) but a few high days thrown into the
mix. Guess I would rather see my metabolic rate say the same thing, if this is
where I should be maintaining. Adding 500 calories to THAT number does take me to
the suggested 2200 number ... but logic also says I should be losing by eating 500
calories less. See where I get very confused? Have I just stalled my body? Or
is the program still *catching up* and *sorting things out*?

I do think the program was over determining the exercise, based on the programming
error that Lesanne did find. I have since corrected that, relogged everything and
come up with what does sound like a truer number (using the calorieperhour.com
website). 40-60+ minutes of walking at 4MPH. I am calling it a 5% incline, since
I vary anywhere from the number 3-8 setting on the treadmill. I figured 5% was
right in the middle and probably where the machine would average it out over the
duration of the workout. Roughly 400 calories burned in an hour, give or take a
few ... not unreasonable and I don't think too high for what I am doing. (The lcd
on my machine says 700+, I defintely think that is way too high). Based on the
19 days I have used the program, 3 days in that time with no exercise logged (not
bad for 19 days!), I am averaging 252 calories in exercise per day.

And, unfortunately, I can't even really cut down on my snacking anymore. It has
become pretty nonexistant these days. I do have my snack mid afternoon ... a bowl
of cut up fruit (melons, pineapple, strawberries) or yogurt ... and a desert in
the evening (skinny cow) OR snack (again, usually the mixed fruit or an apple,
maybe some meringues about once a week) ... rarely both. That's it. No munchies,
no crunchies.

I guess in a nutshell, I am confused these days. Where do I go from here? I am
not unhappy maintaining, but once in a while I do think I would like to see the
silly scale move a bit further down .. just for grins. Guess I'm just always
finding something to question. So to really throw things off, today I feel like I
totally maxed everything out. Out for lunch, out for dinner - no good choices
made at either meal ... and I'm not fretting about it. G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:38:03 -0800, Fred wrote:

After I posted, I realized though, that I seem to be maintaining. Up
and down but only a pound here or there. So I would have to guess
that I am (and probably YOU are) eating about right. I think there
have been days I could have used a bit more energy and I am thinking
of adding a bit more food on outing jaunts. (getting to around 155 is
probably still in the back of my mind when I have my doubts or post
like I did. But for maintaining - I AM MAINTAINING)

So, why does that program (diet power?? was it?) think you should eat
more? Does it have any explanations or background? Either that or it
may be mis-calculating exercise/activity calories???

I think really what I'm thinking is that it would be nice to cut down
the snacking which sometimes seems to mindless and just a habit.
Maybe just sit down and have a piece of cake or something a bit more
formalized so that it does not seem to be endless and mindless?????

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:27:40 -0600, Joyce wrote:

I've been finding myself thinking the same thing the past 2 weeks. My activity
isn't soaring quite as high as yours, but much higher than it ever has been for
me. My eating has remained pretty much the same. My weight flucuates within the
same pound or so. My head is telling me I should eat more, the new diet program
tells me I should be eating many more calories ... so why won't/can't I listen? I
am very afraid of eating more, afraid of where it might take me.

Hmmmmmm. Should we just let Krys be our guinea pig? G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:29:37 -0800, Fred wrote:

Occasionally, I think that with some of my activity levels soaring,
that I am, also, not eating enough but an quite reluctant to up the
ante. I guess maybe journaling in detail would possibly help. But
figuring out the activity points is still a challenge. So, yes,
courageous.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:43 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

yep - you will! *grin*
I like the thought of a courageous me........it feels very strong

I am jealous, would love to be totally wireless - but it will have to wait. It
seems I'm having an excess of the *I wants* lately, have had to set priorities and
the wireless has taken a back burner. Furniture is going to happen, just have to
get hub to go test out the chair we picked out for him. House repairs MUST get
done this season ... and maybe, just maybe I can squeeze that car in somewhere.
G

The setup I have for the computer is different, and not unworkable. It'll get me
by for a bit. And I truly do appreciate my brother getting the unit for me. I
know how strapped he is, and this was definitely not a necessity. I am enjoying
it.

Joyce

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:12:57 -0700, Fred wrote:

Gray and damp today, expect same in two days (g)

I am down by the fireplace right now (due to damp and cold - see above
(g)) on the wireless. I really do like this aspect of technology.
I see you have a slightly different networking setup. I'm using a
card in the laptop so can be completely untethered if I choose to use
only the laptop's battery.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:59:30 -0500, Joyce wrote:

Yup, we got the fair weather - then you passed that cool weather our way too.
Shame on you! It's been back in the 50's this week - cool and damp, lots of rain.
Tornados blew through the surrounding areas yesterday, we somehow managed to miss
every storm system. I think I must live in a hole somewhere. g

The wireless is nice, although I haven't been lugging the laptop through the
house. And it isn't totally wireless. I still have to plug the signal receiver
into a wall outlet and connect it to the computer. The only thing I am avoiding
is stringing one more set of cables through the walls/floors/ceilings of the
house. It does accomplish what I was looking for.

Joyce

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:50:26 -0700, Fred wrote:

Ah, wireless is nice. Enjoy is freedom.

So you did get our fair weather. Cool again today. Same through the
weekend.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:51:43 -0500, Joyce wrote:

Ahhhh, but see ... the birthday is today! I surprised you by getting online early
- didn't I? hehehe

I'm smiling right now, brother got me going wireless on the notebook - hooked me
up with something called a net-extender. I think it's supposed to be for gaming,
but works perfectly for what I need ... so far anyway. We'll see if hubby likes
me typing away while keeping him company. G

Oh no, you don't have to send those cooler temps our way. I am soooooo done with
50's! It is 72 and sunny at the moment, a wonderfully lovely day. Calling for
80's tomorrow.

Joyce

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 06:42:09 -0700, Fred wrote:

NORMAL - yes. Let's continue to work on it.

Hope you had a happy birthday, yesterday.

We are back to mid-50's and rain showers on and off and ON and ON!

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 03:32:43 -0500, Joyce wrote:

I guess all we can do is continue what we currently do. We are human, will run
into these occassions. We just have to remember everything is ok in moderation,
and eventually life will resume normalcy ... as long as normalcy is what we
practice NOW, not pre ww days. At least that is what I am currently trying to
tell myself. I am now entering the celebration season ... family
birthdays/mothers day/fathers day ... something every dang month. I've survived
before, I will continue to survive. I have to.

It has been cool here, temps started changing today. I believe we hit mid 60's
where I'm at, and no winds. Tomorrow is predicting 70's - weekend will be 60's.
It is a nice change of pace and makes spring look more promising.

Joyce

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:29:05 -0700, Fred wrote:

A perfect example of this weekend. I was visiting a friend in Eastern
Washington. Dinner at her place was pretty good but then there was a
birthday dinner at someone's home the next night and another dinner at
another home. The birthday place had all kinds of absolutely tempting
items from cheeses, to cakes to cookies to chips to already dressed
salads. The next dinner was okay until dessert presented itself!!!!

Well, I missed Sun's record high of 80F (more?) in Seattle but it was
quite warm where I was, too. I would have to guess that it will reach
you folks in a day or two. I guess it was 90F in the foothill areas
due to Chinook winds coming downslope. We don't see those temps in
the real Summer very often (thankfully)

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:41:16 -0500, Joyce wrote:

The homemade dinners are very automatic now. Ocassionally something new is
thrown into the mix, as I come across something that just sounds interesting
enough to try. But mostly, pretty standard fare. I am finding the biggest key to
MY success is limiting those meals away from home. Not so much the restaurant
trips, as I can control those well. It's the meals at other homes that do me in.
Like you mentioned ... cheese trays, desserts, crackers/dips/spreads - those are
my weaknesses - general munchie stuff. And carry-in pizza. sigh At least that
doesn't happen too often anymore. LOL

I thought spring was here, but I may have been mistaken. g Back to low 50's
today, frost last night and falling temps to follow this week. But they are
predicting back to the 60's late next week. We'll see.

Joyce

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:24:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

I don't know if it will be unconscious altho, I think home made
dinners are pretty automatic now. But just don't present me with a
cheese board or dessert array! That is where I need willpower.

Spring is here. We are planning on a steep snow climb today in what
we expect will be spring slush. To an old lookout just above I-90.
With any luck we will be able to slide down 1,000 to 2,000 feet on our
butts (glissading) voluntarily

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:16:06 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Same here. I would like to think that it is being handled by my subconcious, but
I'm not confident enough to believe that. I do have to think about those choices.
Such as right now ... have such a taste for chips, but I won't move in that
direction. So far I've successfully ignored all inner voices, if I do cave I'll
reach for that orange. And I also continue to fight. I gave in this evening, had
a wonderful dinner - but do know that I will definitely watch things the rest of
the week. It's becoming routine - I have to work to keep it that way. You and
that dried mango, haven't you learned yet? G

hahaha - I hope at least you will think about it before you try it again. I kind
of figured that the downhill trip had to be by brake alone the entire way. I'm
glad to hear at least that you didn't slide into anything or have a nasty spill.
Best to stay where it's warm now - winter is supposed to be over. G

Joyce

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:45:10 -0800, Fred wrote:

I think my current SETPOINT is being handled by _ME_ in an direct
effort of consciousness. That is I am fighting any tendency to let it
stray upward - like you say "working toward those same results." I
can't say that it is not something that drives me/us to eat or some
internal mechanism but this time, so far, I'm fighting back. (other
than opening the stupid bag of mangoes I got at Costco this morning
and inhaled on the drive home!)

Yes, I did try pedalling UP. It was not smart (afterthought, there
was NO PRE-thought whatsoever! (G)). Coming down was a consistent
pump the brakes over and over for about 2 miles till I was off the
snow and then care on the very wet roadway. The cold and
concentration were not fun. I will not do it again, well, at least,
not soon (G)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:27:18 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Hmmmmmmm, then thinking logically, or illogically, would that mean that if we
wanted to lose even more, we would first have to put weight on to shift that new
setpoint? Ahhhh, you know how I hate thinking. G I've never believed 100% in
the setpoint theory, in the past anyway. I now am beginning to wonder more about
it, thinking that there just may be something behind it. It seems much to easy to
me right now, to go up a pound or two and drop right back down - always hovering
in the same zone. I'm just not sure if it is because of the setpoint, or because
I am working towards those same results. I think I'm going to have to go with the
*who knows* answer.

You actually tried pedalling UP a snowcovered pass? Geeeesh, you are a silly man!
I'm not even sure that going down was an overly bright idea - bet you slipped and
slided your way all the way back to the car. I also bet those activity points
added up quickly from trying valiantly to keep your bicycle under control. G I
don't think you need any more excitement in your life.

Joyce

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:59:47 -0800, Fred wrote:

The other day another friend who is a bit older is trying to get back
into form. He used to run a lot but can't do it as much. But he went
to a specialist (providing services to Microsoft employees) altho
friend went to a free session. This doc discussed Setpoint but
suggested if you lose and keep it off, you probably have reset your
set point lower. Who knows. I really did not think that I ate so
much last week to account for a 2.6 up. But the home weight also
stayed kind of near there for a few more days. Shall I say it again -
who knows.

As for the weather, well, I thought I had escaped to sunny eastern
Washington . And it was sunny but windy. Until I drove the bike up
toward the pass. The sun changed to snow flurries as I started
pedaling. In a few miles, about 3, it changed to real snow and then
there was 2-3 inches of new snow on the roadway (still closed to cars
as they are plowing it open). I was skidding and finally turned
around. Downhill in slushy snow and frigid temps. 7 miles back down
to the car. Got back to friend's house where the sun was still
shining but I was thoroughly chilled.

Interesting day!!!!

We change clocks next weekend - there is hope.

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:50:52 -0600, Joyce wrote:

LOL! Not as confused as me. G But it's fun, I love the confusion (somewhat) -
seems to go right along with my current lifestyle.

Bottom line .. no, I really don't want to drop to the 125 - it is just one of
those numbers that for some reason jumps into my brain on occassion. I'd really
like to stay at 130 ... constantly. I'd like to know what to do to stay there,
instead of up 2, down 2, up 3, down ... you know. What confuses me is why doing
more treadmill, and eating less, the weight does not decline. Maybe there really
is something to that setpoint theory you've spoken of before? I do know there
really isn't a magic number - but I still am searching for it. G It would make
things so much easier.

The weather could have a lot to do with the lack of energy, as well as just having
too much to do and not sure where to even start (or what to do next). This has
been a crazy time here, crazier than usual. I have so much to get done, and it
just isn't happening ... at least not in the way I would like it to.

Joyce

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:44:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

Well, with all the info below, color me confused (G)

So, bottom line is you really do want to drop the bottom line to 125.

But also remember (down in that text somewhere...) that you canNOT
find a fix count of calories or points or whatever someone else
invents. Each day demands calories or points for what you throw at
your body. Treadmill - more. No treadmill and just reading - less.
Two treadmill sessions - even more. Etc. There is no one magic
number. I am trying to also remember that.

Maybe Spring is not coming soon enough which explains the lack of
energy. Or again, yes, being at goal with no aim or objective driving
the daily food issues makes things duller - get use to it (G) Virtue
or being at goal/maintenance is its own reward.



On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:47:09 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Yes, I am maintaining too. What I find odd though, is that I seem to maintain on
many different amounts of points. 25, 20, 27 (I have never really pushed my luck
much above the 27 point mark). I can go two weeks of watching very carefully,
staying at or below 23 points - which used to be what I needed to be at to lose on
ww ... now I only maintain there. Which is nice, but sometimes that dang 125
number flies into my head and makes me think ... but nothing I do seems to be able
to send me into that direction. THAT is what makes me wonder ... how much do I
*really* need to eat. Sometimes I think it would be nice to know this magical
number - be it calories, or points - just *something* a bit more firm and
tangible. And most days I now am finding I have very little energy - to do
anything much other than crawl out of bed, clean the kitchen, do my treadmill
(which is pushing my luck) ... that's about it. Why is this? Is it just the
weather, or is it from something else? I haven't felt this lack of energy for a
long, long time now - really since I started on ww. And then I could come up with
the explanation - I was overweight. NOW what is my excuse?

I have no idea why dietpower thinks I should be eating more. Maybe Lesanne can
jump in with her wonderful knowledge of the program here, and explain. I believe
the program is based on metabolic rates. Studies what I have entered as my
caloric intake, as well as suggested scientific metabolic rates, my personal data
(age/weight/height/lifestyle ... smoker/non-smoker, etc) ... daily weights,
exercise routines ... lumps it all together, sorts it all out, and comes up with a
mystical number of calories that says it is my metabolic rate. When I started
using this program on 3/1, it said my metabolic rate was 2005 ... since them my
weight has dropped 3 pounds (I am up a pound this week - heaven only knows why)
and my metabolic rate has now risen to 2235. This seems awfully high to me, and I
am not eating anywhere near that amount of calories. I am averaging 1700 calories
eaten, most days well below that (1500-1600) but a few high days thrown into the
mix. Guess I would rather see my metabolic rate say the same thing, if this is
where I should be maintaining. Adding 500 calories to THAT number does take me to
the suggested 2200 number ... but logic also says I should be losing by eating 500
calories less. See where I get very confused? Have I just stalled my body? Or
is the program still *catching up* and *sorting things out*?

I do think the program was over determining the exercise, based on the programming
error that Lesanne did find. I have since corrected that, relogged everything and
come up with what does sound like a truer number (using the calorieperhour.com
website). 40-60+ minutes of walking at 4MPH. I am calling it a 5% incline, since
I vary anywhere from the number 3-8 setting on the treadmill. I figured 5% was
right in the middle and probably where the machine would average it out over the
duration of the workout. Roughly 400 calories burned in an hour, give or take a
few ... not unreasonable and I don't think too high for what I am doing. (The lcd
on my machine says 700+, I defintely think that is way too high). Based on the
19 days I have used the program, 3 days in that time with no exercise logged (not
bad for 19 days!), I am averaging 252 calories in exercise per day.

And, unfortunately, I can't even really cut down on my snacking anymore. It has
become pretty nonexistant these days. I do have my snack mid afternoon ... a bowl
of cut up fruit (melons, pineapple, strawberries) or yogurt ... and a desert in
the evening (skinny cow) OR snack (again, usually the mixed fruit or an apple,
maybe some meringues about once a week) ... rarely both. That's it. No munchies,
no crunchies.

I guess in a nutshell, I am confused these days. Where do I go from here? I am
not unhappy maintaining, but once in a while I do think I would like to see the
silly scale move a bit further down .. just for grins. Guess I'm just always
finding something to question. So to really throw things off, today I feel like I
totally maxed everything out. Out for lunch, out for dinner - no good choices
made at either meal ... and I'm not fretting about it. G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:38:03 -0800, Fred wrote:

After I posted, I realized though, that I seem to be maintaining. Up
and down but only a pound here or there. So I would have to guess
that I am (and probably YOU are) eating about right. I think there
have been days I could have used a bit more energy and I am thinking
of adding a bit more food on outing jaunts. (getting to around 155 is
probably still in the back of my mind when I have my doubts or post
like I did. But for maintaining - I AM MAINTAINING)

So, why does that program (diet power?? was it?) think you should eat
more? Does it have any explanations or background? Either that or it
may be mis-calculating exercise/activity calories???

I think really what I'm thinking is that it would be nice to cut down
the snacking which sometimes seems to mindless and just a habit.
Maybe just sit down and have a piece of cake or something a bit more
formalized so that it does not seem to be endless and mindless?????

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:27:40 -0600, Joyce wrote:

I've been finding myself thinking the same thing the past 2 weeks. My activity
isn't soaring quite as high as yours, but much higher than it ever has been for
me. My eating has remained pretty much the same. My weight flucuates within the
same pound or so. My head is telling me I should eat more, the new diet program
tells me I should be eating many more calories ... so why won't/can't I listen? I
am very afraid of eating more, afraid of where it might take me.

Hmmmmmm. Should we just let Krys be our guinea pig? G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:29:37 -0800, Fred wrote:

Occasionally, I think that with some of my activity levels soaring,
that I am, also, not eating enough but an quite reluctant to up the
ante. I guess maybe journaling in detail would possibly help. But
figuring out the activity points is still a challenge. So, yes,
courageous.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:43 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

yep - you will! *grin*
I like the thought of a courageous me........it feels very strong

LOL! Yup, car has to go towards the bottom as it is not quite as affordable as
the other items. I'd like to move it higher up, but just can't get myself to do
it. G The dealer keeps calling me though, lets me know every time a new one
arrives on the lot. Hub and I are in negotiation mode. G

Joyce

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 20:02:14 -0700, Fred wrote:

I was anticipating THE CAR and there it was trailing the end of the
list. (g)

Good luck getting through the list.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:50:44 -0500, Joyce wrote:

I am jealous, would love to be totally wireless - but it will have to wait. It
seems I'm having an excess of the *I wants* lately, have had to set priorities and
the wireless has taken a back burner. Furniture is going to happen, just have to
get hub to go test out the chair we picked out for him. House repairs MUST get
done this season ... and maybe, just maybe I can squeeze that car in somewhere.
G

The setup I have for the computer is different, and not unworkable. It'll get me
by for a bit. And I truly do appreciate my brother getting the unit for me. I
know how strapped he is, and this was definitely not a necessity. I am enjoying
it.

Joyce

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:12:57 -0700, Fred wrote:

Gray and damp today, expect same in two days (g)

I am down by the fireplace right now (due to damp and cold - see above
(g)) on the wireless. I really do like this aspect of technology.
I see you have a slightly different networking setup. I'm using a
card in the laptop so can be completely untethered if I choose to use
only the laptop's battery.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 01:59:30 -0500, Joyce wrote:

Yup, we got the fair weather - then you passed that cool weather our way too.
Shame on you! It's been back in the 50's this week - cool and damp, lots of rain.
Tornados blew through the surrounding areas yesterday, we somehow managed to miss
every storm system. I think I must live in a hole somewhere. g

The wireless is nice, although I haven't been lugging the laptop through the
house. And it isn't totally wireless. I still have to plug the signal receiver
into a wall outlet and connect it to the computer. The only thing I am avoiding
is stringing one more set of cables through the walls/floors/ceilings of the
house. It does accomplish what I was looking for.

Joyce

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:50:26 -0700, Fred wrote:

Ah, wireless is nice. Enjoy is freedom.

So you did get our fair weather. Cool again today. Same through the
weekend.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:51:43 -0500, Joyce wrote:

Ahhhh, but see ... the birthday is today! I surprised you by getting online early
- didn't I? hehehe

I'm smiling right now, brother got me going wireless on the notebook - hooked me
up with something called a net-extender. I think it's supposed to be for gaming,
but works perfectly for what I need ... so far anyway. We'll see if hubby likes
me typing away while keeping him company. G

Oh no, you don't have to send those cooler temps our way. I am soooooo done with
50's! It is 72 and sunny at the moment, a wonderfully lovely day. Calling for
80's tomorrow.

Joyce

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 06:42:09 -0700, Fred wrote:

NORMAL - yes. Let's continue to work on it.

Hope you had a happy birthday, yesterday.

We are back to mid-50's and rain showers on and off and ON and ON!

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 03:32:43 -0500, Joyce wrote:

I guess all we can do is continue what we currently do. We are human, will run
into these occassions. We just have to remember everything is ok in moderation,
and eventually life will resume normalcy ... as long as normalcy is what we
practice NOW, not pre ww days. At least that is what I am currently trying to
tell myself. I am now entering the celebration season ... family
birthdays/mothers day/fathers day ... something every dang month. I've survived
before, I will continue to survive. I have to.

It has been cool here, temps started changing today. I believe we hit mid 60's
where I'm at, and no winds. Tomorrow is predicting 70's - weekend will be 60's.
It is a nice change of pace and makes spring look more promising.

Joyce

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:29:05 -0700, Fred wrote:

A perfect example of this weekend. I was visiting a friend in Eastern
Washington. Dinner at her place was pretty good but then there was a
birthday dinner at someone's home the next night and another dinner at
another home. The birthday place had all kinds of absolutely tempting
items from cheeses, to cakes to cookies to chips to already dressed
salads. The next dinner was okay until dessert presented itself!!!!

Well, I missed Sun's record high of 80F (more?) in Seattle but it was
quite warm where I was, too. I would have to guess that it will reach
you folks in a day or two. I guess it was 90F in the foothill areas
due to Chinook winds coming downslope. We don't see those temps in
the real Summer very often (thankfully)

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:41:16 -0500, Joyce wrote:

The homemade dinners are very automatic now. Ocassionally something new is
thrown into the mix, as I come across something that just sounds interesting
enough to try. But mostly, pretty standard fare. I am finding the biggest key to
MY success is limiting those meals away from home. Not so much the restaurant
trips, as I can control those well. It's the meals at other homes that do me in.
Like you mentioned ... cheese trays, desserts, crackers/dips/spreads - those are
my weaknesses - general munchie stuff. And carry-in pizza. sigh At least that
doesn't happen too often anymore. LOL

I thought spring was here, but I may have been mistaken. g Back to low 50's
today, frost last night and falling temps to follow this week. But they are
predicting back to the 60's late next week. We'll see.

Joyce

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:24:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

I don't know if it will be unconscious altho, I think home made
dinners are pretty automatic now. But just don't present me with a
cheese board or dessert array! That is where I need willpower.

Spring is here. We are planning on a steep snow climb today in what
we expect will be spring slush. To an old lookout just above I-90.
With any luck we will be able to slide down 1,000 to 2,000 feet on our
butts (glissading) voluntarily

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 01:16:06 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Same here. I would like to think that it is being handled by my subconcious, but
I'm not confident enough to believe that. I do have to think about those choices.
Such as right now ... have such a taste for chips, but I won't move in that
direction. So far I've successfully ignored all inner voices, if I do cave I'll
reach for that orange. And I also continue to fight. I gave in this evening, had
a wonderful dinner - but do know that I will definitely watch things the rest of
the week. It's becoming routine - I have to work to keep it that way. You and
that dried mango, haven't you learned yet? G

hahaha - I hope at least you will think about it before you try it again. I kind
of figured that the downhill trip had to be by brake alone the entire way. I'm
glad to hear at least that you didn't slide into anything or have a nasty spill.
Best to stay where it's warm now - winter is supposed to be over. G

Joyce

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:45:10 -0800, Fred wrote:

I think my current SETPOINT is being handled by _ME_ in an direct
effort of consciousness. That is I am fighting any tendency to let it
stray upward - like you say "working toward those same results." I
can't say that it is not something that drives me/us to eat or some
internal mechanism but this time, so far, I'm fighting back. (other
than opening the stupid bag of mangoes I got at Costco this morning
and inhaled on the drive home!)

Yes, I did try pedalling UP. It was not smart (afterthought, there
was NO PRE-thought whatsoever! (G)). Coming down was a consistent
pump the brakes over and over for about 2 miles till I was off the
snow and then care on the very wet roadway. The cold and
concentration were not fun. I will not do it again, well, at least,
not soon (G)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:27:18 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Hmmmmmmm, then thinking logically, or illogically, would that mean that if we
wanted to lose even more, we would first have to put weight on to shift that new
setpoint? Ahhhh, you know how I hate thinking. G I've never believed 100% in
the setpoint theory, in the past anyway. I now am beginning to wonder more about
it, thinking that there just may be something behind it. It seems much to easy to
me right now, to go up a pound or two and drop right back down - always hovering
in the same zone. I'm just not sure if it is because of the setpoint, or because
I am working towards those same results. I think I'm going to have to go with the
*who knows* answer.

You actually tried pedalling UP a snowcovered pass? Geeeesh, you are a silly man!
I'm not even sure that going down was an overly bright idea - bet you slipped and
slided your way all the way back to the car. I also bet those activity points
added up quickly from trying valiantly to keep your bicycle under control. G I
don't think you need any more excitement in your life.

Joyce

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:59:47 -0800, Fred wrote:

The other day another friend who is a bit older is trying to get back
into form. He used to run a lot but can't do it as much. But he went
to a specialist (providing services to Microsoft employees) altho
friend went to a free session. This doc discussed Setpoint but
suggested if you lose and keep it off, you probably have reset your
set point lower. Who knows. I really did not think that I ate so
much last week to account for a 2.6 up. But the home weight also
stayed kind of near there for a few more days. Shall I say it again -
who knows.

As for the weather, well, I thought I had escaped to sunny eastern
Washington . And it was sunny but windy. Until I drove the bike up
toward the pass. The sun changed to snow flurries as I started
pedaling. In a few miles, about 3, it changed to real snow and then
there was 2-3 inches of new snow on the roadway (still closed to cars
as they are plowing it open). I was skidding and finally turned
around. Downhill in slushy snow and frigid temps. 7 miles back down
to the car. Got back to friend's house where the sun was still
shining but I was thoroughly chilled.

Interesting day!!!!

We change clocks next weekend - there is hope.

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 02:50:52 -0600, Joyce wrote:

LOL! Not as confused as me. G But it's fun, I love the confusion (somewhat) -
seems to go right along with my current lifestyle.

Bottom line .. no, I really don't want to drop to the 125 - it is just one of
those numbers that for some reason jumps into my brain on occassion. I'd really
like to stay at 130 ... constantly. I'd like to know what to do to stay there,
instead of up 2, down 2, up 3, down ... you know. What confuses me is why doing
more treadmill, and eating less, the weight does not decline. Maybe there really
is something to that setpoint theory you've spoken of before? I do know there
really isn't a magic number - but I still am searching for it. G It would make
things so much easier.

The weather could have a lot to do with the lack of energy, as well as just having
too much to do and not sure where to even start (or what to do next). This has
been a crazy time here, crazier than usual. I have so much to get done, and it
just isn't happening ... at least not in the way I would like it to.

Joyce

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 07:44:08 -0800, Fred wrote:

Well, with all the info below, color me confused (G)

So, bottom line is you really do want to drop the bottom line to 125.

But also remember (down in that text somewhere...) that you canNOT
find a fix count of calories or points or whatever someone else
invents. Each day demands calories or points for what you throw at
your body. Treadmill - more. No treadmill and just reading - less.
Two treadmill sessions - even more. Etc. There is no one magic
number. I am trying to also remember that.

Maybe Spring is not coming soon enough which explains the lack of
energy. Or again, yes, being at goal with no aim or objective driving
the daily food issues makes things duller - get use to it (G) Virtue
or being at goal/maintenance is its own reward.



On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 00:47:09 -0600, Joyce wrote:

Yes, I am maintaining too. What I find odd though, is that I seem to maintain on
many different amounts of points. 25, 20, 27 (I have never really pushed my luck
much above the 27 point mark). I can go two weeks of watching very carefully,
staying at or below 23 points - which used to be what I needed to be at to lose on
ww ... now I only maintain there. Which is nice, but sometimes that dang 125
number flies into my head and makes me think ... but nothing I do seems to be able
to send me into that direction. THAT is what makes me wonder ... how much do I
*really* need to eat. Sometimes I think it would be nice to know this magical
number - be it calories, or points - just *something* a bit more firm and
tangible. And most days I now am finding I have very little energy - to do
anything much other than crawl out of bed, clean the kitchen, do my treadmill
(which is pushing my luck) ... that's about it. Why is this? Is it just the
weather, or is it from something else? I haven't felt this lack of energy for a
long, long time now - really since I started on ww. And then I could come up with
the explanation - I was overweight. NOW what is my excuse?

I have no idea why dietpower thinks I should be eating more. Maybe Lesanne can
jump in with her wonderful knowledge of the program here, and explain. I believe
the program is based on metabolic rates. Studies what I have entered as my
caloric intake, as well as suggested scientific metabolic rates, my personal data
(age/weight/height/lifestyle ... smoker/non-smoker, etc) ... daily weights,
exercise routines ... lumps it all together, sorts it all out, and comes up with a
mystical number of calories that says it is my metabolic rate. When I started
using this program on 3/1, it said my metabolic rate was 2005 ... since them my
weight has dropped 3 pounds (I am up a pound this week - heaven only knows why)
and my metabolic rate has now risen to 2235. This seems awfully high to me, and I
am not eating anywhere near that amount of calories. I am averaging 1700 calories
eaten, most days well below that (1500-1600) but a few high days thrown into the
mix. Guess I would rather see my metabolic rate say the same thing, if this is
where I should be maintaining. Adding 500 calories to THAT number does take me to
the suggested 2200 number ... but logic also says I should be losing by eating 500
calories less. See where I get very confused? Have I just stalled my body? Or
is the program still *catching up* and *sorting things out*?

I do think the program was over determining the exercise, based on the programming
error that Lesanne did find. I have since corrected that, relogged everything and
come up with what does sound like a truer number (using the calorieperhour.com
website). 40-60+ minutes of walking at 4MPH. I am calling it a 5% incline, since
I vary anywhere from the number 3-8 setting on the treadmill. I figured 5% was
right in the middle and probably where the machine would average it out over the
duration of the workout. Roughly 400 calories burned in an hour, give or take a
few ... not unreasonable and I don't think too high for what I am doing. (The lcd
on my machine says 700+, I defintely think that is way too high). Based on the
19 days I have used the program, 3 days in that time with no exercise logged (not
bad for 19 days!), I am averaging 252 calories in exercise per day.

And, unfortunately, I can't even really cut down on my snacking anymore. It has
become pretty nonexistant these days. I do have my snack mid afternoon ... a bowl
of cut up fruit (melons, pineapple, strawberries) or yogurt ... and a desert in
the evening (skinny cow) OR snack (again, usually the mixed fruit or an apple,
maybe some meringues about once a week) ... rarely both. That's it. No munchies,
no crunchies.

I guess in a nutshell, I am confused these days. Where do I go from here? I am
not unhappy maintaining, but once in a while I do think I would like to see the
silly scale move a bit further down .. just for grins. Guess I'm just always
finding something to question. So to really throw things off, today I feel like I
totally maxed everything out. Out for lunch, out for dinner - no good choices
made at either meal ... and I'm not fretting about it. G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:38:03 -0800, Fred wrote:

After I posted, I realized though, that I seem to be maintaining. Up
and down but only a pound here or there. So I would have to guess
that I am (and probably YOU are) eating about right. I think there
have been days I could have used a bit more energy and I am thinking
of adding a bit more food on outing jaunts. (getting to around 155 is
probably still in the back of my mind when I have my doubts or post
like I did. But for maintaining - I AM MAINTAINING)

So, why does that program (diet power?? was it?) think you should eat
more? Does it have any explanations or background? Either that or it
may be mis-calculating exercise/activity calories???

I think really what I'm thinking is that it would be nice to cut down
the snacking which sometimes seems to mindless and just a habit.
Maybe just sit down and have a piece of cake or something a bit more
formalized so that it does not seem to be endless and mindless?????

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 17:27:40 -0600, Joyce wrote:

I've been finding myself thinking the same thing the past 2 weeks. My activity
isn't soaring quite as high as yours, but much higher than it ever has been for
me. My eating has remained pretty much the same. My weight flucuates within the
same pound or so. My head is telling me I should eat more, the new diet program
tells me I should be eating many more calories ... so why won't/can't I listen? I
am very afraid of eating more, afraid of where it might take me.

Hmmmmmm. Should we just let Krys be our guinea pig? G

Joyce

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:29:37 -0800, Fred wrote:

Occasionally, I think that with some of my activity levels soaring,
that I am, also, not eating enough but an quite reluctant to up the
ante. I guess maybe journaling in detail would possibly help. But
figuring out the activity points is still a challenge. So, yes,
courageous.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:58:43 -0000, "krys"
wrote:

yep - you will! *grin*
I like the thought of a courageous me........it feels very strong