Low carb and endurance running -- results of my experiment

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:01:49 -0400, Dally wrote:

So would you please just do us a favor and stop cross-posting into three
groups?

Dally

Us? Us?

I only see one Dally.

But I see way too many Mu's.

Dally

Your attempts to speak for ALL of ASD is rather arrogant, don't you think?
As to Mus vs Dallys, want to do a Usenet count of the number of posts of
yours vs mine over, say, September?

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:01:49 -0400, Dally wrote:

So would you please just do us a favor and stop cross-posting into three
groups?

Dally

Us? Us?

I only see one Dally.

But I see way too many Mu's.

Dally

Your attempts to speak for ALL of ASD is rather arrogant, don't you think?
As to Mus vs Dallys, want to do a Usenet count of the number of posts of
yours vs mine over, say, September?

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:42:13 GMT, Tony wrote:

What are "energy dependent chemistries" that's a mouthful.

Put simply, and very generally, the body uses either oxygen or an
assortment of other (in)organic chemicals to use for fuel. People call this
aerobic or anaerobic (better termed oxygen dependent and oxygen
independent).

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:42:13 GMT, Tony wrote:

Yes, so?

You asked, I answered.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:42:13 GMT, Tony wrote:

Both fats and glycogen are always being consumed in some
proportion (as well as protien).

Yes, so?

Muscle glycogen
is preserved by the body when possible, burning fats first.

Rarely. Systemic glycogen (liver, muscle etc) is a primary source of fuel
for human motion. Fats are into the fuel equation (again, very generally)
when these primary sources are (nearly) consumed.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:42:13 GMT, Tony wrote:

That's not true. Fats are utilized first, and glycogen is utilized more as
exercise intensity goes up. This is commonly accepted.

It maybe commonly accepted but it is incorrect.

Doing long
periods of training at low intensity will improve the fat burning system
over time.

Improve it? Maybe. Rely on it? Certainly.

Or is Lance Armstrong wasting his time riding 5-7 hours/day at
HR 110-120 in the off season?

Champions waste their time, I have seen it consistently. Is he? Probably
not.

There are reasons he has more glycogen left
than other racers at the end of the racing day when its needed.

Switching between oxygen dependency and independency is a very personal,
biomechanical issue. When is LA using non oxygen resources; when only O2
resources?

Your wording is an abuse of the English language worse even than mine LA
does many forms of training at many intensities. All aerobic training
utilizes oxygen, either with fat or glucose. Anaerobic training is done
exclusively on glycogen.

The terms anaerobic and aerobic are substituted for the more appropriate
and accurate terms O2 (in)dependency. Note "dependency" not reliance. No
one is ever completely reliant regardless of the activity on O2 or the
macronutrient chemistries.

Excuse me, maybe you read some texts that I didn't read, but that doesn't
mean you understood them, and you don't explain your points very clearly.

Question: if the body always uses muslce glycogen up first, no matter what
the effort level (I think this is what you said), then why does it even
bother to store muscle glycogen? Wouldn't nature tend to select those
individuals whose bodies saved their more explosive fuel (glycogen) for
times when it could help save one's life? As in Fight or Flight!

- Tony

In article ,
Jane Lumley wrote:
In article , Doug Freese
writes
Sprinters burn solid glycogen while endurance folks like myself that run
for 20+ hours burn mostly fat. Endurance folks train their bodies via
the long run and speed work to enhance burning fat as opposed to
glycogen so you don't bonk.

This is really interesting, and I never heard it put just like this
before.

Any clue about how far you go before you are burning mainly fat, or is
that, too, individual?

It's a matter first of intensity level of the exercise. If you're
running at a level you could (with due training) maintain for 20+ hours,
you're burning mostly fat -- even if you stop at 20 minutes.

The second point, and it's a minor variation on that fundamental principle,
is that your body uses more glycogen when you first start than later
on, even at constant intensity level. iirc, though, it's a matter
of a few percent or tens of percent difference, rather than the factor of
2+ that the intensity level makes.

The precise percentages are indeed individual. The principle, though,
of intensity drives proportion of substrate (fat vs. glycogen) use
holds for all.

And (dumb question, doubtless) if endurance athletes burn fat, why do
they need carbs in order not to bonk in the UK, bonk means you have
lots of - er - energy...?

Saying is "Fat burns in a fire of glycogen". Some glycogen is
necessary in order to drive the reaction that takes energy (mostly)
from the fats. After you run out of glycogen, the result is
the US bonk, which is not nearly as fun as the UK bonk. What
your body does then is drag protein in to keep the fat-burning
reaction going. This is highly inefficient (= little energy
production) and just downright unpleasant.


For illustration purposes, we sometimes talk as if only one thing
('carb burning' 'fat burning' 'training VO2max' ...) were going on.
The truth is more like all possible reactions are always going on in
the body. You're always burning some of each possible substrate,
it's just that the proportions shift. You're always using each
possible energy-supplying reaction; even for ultramarathoners, some
of the lactic-acid producing reaction is done. But the proportions
shift.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

One time on Usenet, (janice) said:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:57:10 -0500, "JMA"
wrote:

Actually there are those on ASD who think the name would suit him better if
the "m" were an "n" instead.

Well, I for one haven't forgotten the day he described himself that
way. Ig may hide his own posts, but it's still there if you google
the "weigh in and the day after" thread (5 August 2004).

janice
still laughing

LOL! I didn't see that thread originally, thanks for sharing...


--
J.J. in WA * 275/232.5
Mini Goal 195 by May 31, 2005
(COLD to HOT for e-mail)

"MU" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:42:13 GMT, Tony wrote:

What are "energy dependent chemistries" that's a mouthful.

Put simply, and very generally, the body uses either oxygen or an
assortment of other (in)organic chemicals to use for fuel. People call
this
aerobic or anaerobic (better termed oxygen dependent and oxygen
independent).

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:42:13 GMT, Tony wrote:

Yes, so?

You asked, I answered.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:42:13 GMT, Tony wrote:

Both fats and glycogen are always being consumed in some
proportion (as well as protien).

Yes, so?

Muscle glycogen
is preserved by the body when possible, burning fats first.

Rarely. Systemic glycogen (liver, muscle etc) is a primary source of
fuel
for human motion. Fats are into the fuel equation (again, very
generally)
when these primary sources are (nearly) consumed.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:42:13 GMT, Tony wrote:

That's not true. Fats are utilized first, and glycogen is utilized more
as
exercise intensity goes up. This is commonly accepted.

It maybe commonly accepted but it is incorrect.

I would be interested to read a text that shows that as intensity
increases, glycogen utilization does not increase. Please point me to a
text or a referenced journal article.



Doing long
periods of training at low intensity will improve the fat burning
system
over time.

Improve it? Maybe. Rely on it? Certainly.

Or is Lance Armstrong wasting his time riding 5-7 hours/day at
HR 110-120 in the off season?

Champions waste their time, I have seen it consistently. Is he? Probably
not.

There are reasons he has more glycogen left
than other racers at the end of the racing day when its needed.

Switching between oxygen dependency and independency is a very personal,
biomechanical issue. When is LA using non oxygen resources; when only O2
resources?

Your wording is an abuse of the English language worse even than mine
LA
does many forms of training at many intensities. All aerobic training
utilizes oxygen, either with fat or glucose. Anaerobic training is done
exclusively on glycogen.

The terms anaerobic and aerobic are substituted for the more appropriate
and accurate terms O2 (in)dependency. Note "dependency" not reliance. No
one is ever completely reliant regardless of the activity on O2 or the
macronutrient chemistries.

"jmk" wrote in message
...
On 9/22/2004 5:10 PM, Dot wrote:
Phil M. wrote:

Ignoramus13667 wrote:


What should I take to be on the run? My thinking is, I should take my
ID, a note with all my details (phone numbers etc), a credit card,
$100 or so in cash.



Don't forget the TP.


Isn't that what the $100 cash is for?
I'm puzzled about why one would need $100 cash for a running race. OTOH,
maybe that's my problem

Dot

Me too. I know many cyclists bring $2-$5 with them -- in case they run
out of water on a long ride or if a good samaritan helps them and they
want to offer gas money or something.

--
jmk in NC

With a $100 and a credit card I'd be shopping instead of running a race!!

Beverly - who usually carries around $20 when out riding on the bike. I may
run into a restaurantg

"jmk" wrote in message
...
On 9/22/2004 5:10 PM, Dot wrote:
Phil M. wrote:

Ignoramus13667 wrote:


What should I take to be on the run? My thinking is, I should take my
ID, a note with all my details (phone numbers etc), a credit card,
$100 or so in cash.



Don't forget the TP.


Isn't that what the $100 cash is for?
I'm puzzled about why one would need $100 cash for a running race. OTOH,
maybe that's my problem

Dot

Me too. I know many cyclists bring $2-$5 with them -- in case they run
out of water on a long ride or if a good samaritan helps them and they
want to offer gas money or something.

--
jmk in NC

With a $100 and a credit card I'd be shopping instead of running a race!!

Beverly - who usually carries around $20 when out riding on the bike. I may
run into a restaurantg

"jmk" wrote in message
...
On 9/22/2004 5:10 PM, Dot wrote:
Phil M. wrote:

Ignoramus13667 wrote:


What should I take to be on the run? My thinking is, I should take my
ID, a note with all my details (phone numbers etc), a credit card,
$100 or so in cash.



Don't forget the TP.


Isn't that what the $100 cash is for?
I'm puzzled about why one would need $100 cash for a running race. OTOH,
maybe that's my problem

Dot

Me too. I know many cyclists bring $2-$5 with them -- in case they run
out of water on a long ride or if a good samaritan helps them and they
want to offer gas money or something.

--
jmk in NC

With a $100 and a credit card I'd be shopping instead of running a race!!

Beverly - who usually carries around $20 when out riding on the bike. I may
run into a restaurantg