Verbal attack on Low Carb'ng

Papa Joe wrote:
|| On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:05:00 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
|| wrote:
||
||| Papa Joe wrote:
||||| On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:34:11 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
||||| wrote:
|||||
|||||| Papa Joe wrote:
|||||||| Hi
|||||||| I am not sure if I agree that low carb means high fat. While
|||||||| it,
|||||||| in
|||||||| reality could be, it is not necessarily so.
||||||||
|||||||| Probably one who is not in continuous ketosis would either need
|||||||| fat
|||||||| or
|||||||| more carbs to satisfy the energy requirements, one who is in
|||||||| ketosis
|||||||| gets the fat elsewhere.
||||||||
|||||||| However, one could eat low carb foods and lay off the fat and
|||||||| still exist......at least I think so!
||||||||
|||||||| I don't eat a high fat diet and I am a low carb
|||||||| individual...granted
|||||||| for only 4 months or so, but, still, it is a low carb diet for
|||||||| me.
|||||||| I do not shun fat but do not look for it either.
|||||||
|||||| What we mean by a high fat diet is that the greatest precentage
|||||| of
|||||| calories
|||||| comes from fat. If your goal is weight loss, that typically does
|||||| not imply eating a lot of fat.
||||||
|||||| If you want to know for sure, simply use fitday.com to track your
|||||| eating for
|||||| a month or so. Most foods on a LC diet other than veggies are
|||||| high
|||||| fat. So unless you're only eating lean meat, lean fish & veggies
|||||| with no dressing,
|||||| you're likely getting a lot of your calories from fat.
|||||
||||| ........you mean no/low fat from the lean meat, fish and veggies
||||| with
||||| no dressing.....eggs, LC cereal, no fat&Low carb milk,
||||| Strawberries,
||||| and the food you mention do not ring true to high fat foods.
|||
||| I'm sorry, but i don't understand what you mean.
|| *********...I am just taking your words "Most foods on a LC diet
|| other than veggies are high| fat. So unless you're only eating lean
|| meat, lean fish & veggies" and saying I don't agree entirely, that's
|| all. That is what I eat and it/they are not what most would call high
|| fat. Yes, I know that Atkins does not restrict fat but in his book he
|| also uses 'sensible' a lot--I don't fill up on bacon and do look for
|| the leaner hamburger, but, mostly I eat what you refer to as high
|| fat--(Most foods on a LC diet other than veggies are high
|| fat. So unless you're only eating lean meat, lean fish & veggies
|| with no dressing" and disagreeing a bit as I do not consider them
|| high fat.

Okay, I think I follow you now. The thing is, protein will end up
converting to glucose in the body at a rate of 58%. So, if by getting your
calories from mostly protein and veggies, you could be knocking yourself out
of ketosis. And if you're not careful, you can have some other issues.
Aside from that, eating mostly lean meat & fish, and veggies with no dress
is boring and tasteless. How long have you been LCing? I hope you tell me 3
to 5 years, for if not, then it is doubtful in my mind that you'll be able
to continue.

||
||
||||| is
||||| in ketosis, I understood that the calories are mostly coming from
||||| the 'dissolved' fat.....and the under 25 carbs per day along with
||||| some
||||| unavoidable fat.....
|||
||| ? Again, I don't follow you. On a typical LC, Atkins style diet,
||| fat is not restricted, carbs are.
||
|| ..again, I am referring to Low carb and not Atkins--fat should be
|| restricted, IMHO, as excess of anything other than money or ??? is
|| not
|| good.

Consider this. You're either maintaining weight or losing (hopefully).
Therefore, you're not eating in excess. So if you're eating other things
beside fat, such as protein and veggie, then you definitely aren't eating
excessive amounts of fat.

Who says fat should be restricted? If in the presense are carbs, you'd
better be careful. But on a carb controlled diet, fat won't be harmful.

|| I think we are all here because we know carbs are restricted--hence
|| the title of the ng...
||
||
|| So if you eat meat, cheese, eggs, cream, fatty fish,(he(Atkins)
|| mentions the kinds of fish to avoid(fatty specimens)).

Like salmon? Avoid salmon?

The cream and
|| cheese I do not restrict but I am usually full so eating is just out
|| of habit! The eggs are one thing I have cut way back on since finding
|| the variety of low carb cereals--they are enjoyable with the low carb
|| milk and some strawberries, so the breakfast variety is opened a
|| little wider.

what LC cereals are you referring to? What are they made of? The ones that
contain flax have fairly high fat content.

||| nuts, etc, then you're going to be eating a goodly amount of fat.
||| Not neces sarily a lot of fat, because if your goal is weight loss
||| then carb
||| restriction will likely enable you to eat less food, and those lose
||| weight.
|||
|||||
||||| If one is a low carber , the goal may not be weight loss but that
||||| may
||||| be a by product of what is currently considered to be smart eating
||||| habits.
|||
||| Okay.
|||
|||||
||||| Dr Atkins just advised that a sensible amount of fat be ingested,
||||| but
||||| that restricted carbs were the key to both better health and
||||| weight
||||| loss. He did not say High Fat.
|||
||| What is a sensible amount of fat and what is high fat? I gave you
||| my
||| definition of high fat. If you are getting enough protein in your
||| diet,
||| then a sensible fat intake may be upto the amount it takes to
||| maintain your current weight. Fat, like carbs, aren't inherently
||| evil.
||
|| I look at it this way, which suits me and I cannot get an answer if
|| it
|| is correct or not:
||
|| If I can make the ketostix 'show' a bit, I am on the edge of having
|| enough carbs to maintain ketosis and, if I am either not gaining
|| weight or continue to lose, then I must not be eating very much fat.

What? I'd say your carb content is under control, but you could be eating
a goodly precentage of your diet in fat.

|| It works for me. My only concern, which I stated in an earlier post,
|| is how much of a problem is long term ketosis.....and, what is long
|| term? Now, I am eating an awful lot of food, not gaining weight and
|| keeping either a trace or better on the stix.

I don't think there is any problem with long-term ketosis. The body is
designed to function in ketosis and mankind is designed to strive on
different diets. To suggest that there is a problem with long-term ketosis
(without strong evidence to think such) is just to be a creator of FUD - the
notion that if mankind hasn't researched it and given long-term ketosis its
blessing, then it isn't safe to do. Nonsense. Mankind has been wrong so
many times in the pass that we have little reason to place such trust in its
ability to prove and issue one way or the other.

||
|| Heck, here is yesterdays eats:
|| Breakfast-large bowl of cereal with refill--say 15 grams....

What is your cereal? Many of the ones I've seen are high in fat content.

|| no lunch...did not feel like eating.
|| supper--2 slices of low carb bread(5 grams per slice) with sausage
|| and peppers(12)..2 glasses of low carb/low fat milk(6) and an
|| apple(12)..3 gram low carb candy bar at 1145PM...Low Carb Nacho Chip
|| 'Crumbs'...5
|| ...days total about 53.

be careful with the candy....it may be higher in carbs than the package
would lead you to believe. BTW, I got 63g.

||
|| I spent the day feeling filled and went to bed the same way. Woke up
|| and was at the same weight as the last two days.
|| As soon as I finsh the carton of low fat low carb milk, I am going to
|| 'regular' low fat milk to reduce the container congestion in the
|| 'fridge.
|| To me, that is both a lot of food and typical for me and not high
|| fat.
|| Sausage was pretty lean but still had fat content.
||
|| Heck we all are on the same page here. I really appreciate having a
|| place to read, discuss and look for insights...and add posts myself.
|| Thankfully there is a ng like this one where we can share.
|| I think usenet is the best part of the 'Internet'.
||
|| I thank all for their input and for putting up with mine.
|| Joe
||
|||
|||||
||||| I like this ng.
||||| Joe
||||| you don't have to
|||||| hunt it down, either, it just comes with the terrority. Also, it
|||||| is fairly
|||||| easy to control sat fat intake while eating a high fat LC diet.
|||||| My
|||||| sat fat intake rarely goes above 20% of overall calories.
||||||
||||||
|||||||
|||||||| FWIW.
|||||||| Joe
||||||||
||||||||
||||||||
|||||||| On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:12:17 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
|||||||| wrote:
||||||||
||||||||| Papa Joe wrote:
||||||||||| Hi
||||||||||| I read an
|||||||||||
|||||||||
||||||
|||
article(http://www.xposed.com/health/nutriti...ck_amid_low-ca
||||||||| rb_trend.aspx)
||||||||||| that spoke about pasta and how it(companies) is fighting
||||||||||| back
||||||||||| against low carbing..which is OK.
|||||||||||
||||||||||| But, I find one quote to be disturbing and probably
||||||||||| incorrect--I
||||||||||| know it is for me anyway--it goes:
|||||||||||
||||||||||| "How is it that it can be called a low-carb diet when in
||||||||||| fact
||||||||||| it
||||||||||| is a dangerous high-fat diet? How can that happen in our
||||||||||| culture?" railed K. Dun Gifford, president of the Oldways
||||||||||| Preservation Trust, the Boston-based food issues think tank
||||||||||| that
||||||||||| organized the event."
|||||||||
|||||||||
||||||||| The statement is incorrect, obviously. LC typically is a
||||||||| high-fat
||||||||| diet. That part is true. It is also a low-carb diet, so that
||||||||| is
||||||||| true. However, for most, it is not a dangerous diet at all.
||||||||| It
||||||||| is
||||||||| the so-called standard American diet that is dangerous,
||||||||| because
||||||||| it
||||||||| comes lots of carbs and lots of fat, along with an excess of
||||||||| calories. That combination is a killer. Also, for those who
||||||||| do
||||||||| well on a low-carb diet (diabetics and people with insulin
||||||||| resistance issues), a low-fat diet can be dangerous too.
|||||||||
|||||||||
|||||||||||
||||||||||| I don't know about others, but I do not find that the foods
||||||||||| I
||||||||||| eat
||||||||||| are any more high fat than those who are not low carbing.
|||||||||
||||||||| That can be very true. Those who are not low carbing and not
||||||||| eating low fat are probably getting plenty of fat and plenty
||||||||| of
||||||||| carbs. You've removed the carbs, which result in
||||||||| normalization
||||||||| of
||||||||| BG levels, resulting in reduced appetite. As are, you're not
||||||||| hungry on fewer calories than previously and you can lose
||||||||| weight.
|||||||||
||||||||| Of course, some find that they can still increase fat intake
||||||||| while
||||||||| keeping calories below that required to maintain their weight.
||||||||| They may be eating a greater amount of fat than before
||||||||| (especially
||||||||| if they were trained to be fat-aware like many in this country
||||||||| were). Yet they can still improve health and lose weight.
|||||||||
||||||||| In the absence of excessive carbs and excessive calories, a
||||||||| high-fat diet is very likely to not be dangerous.
|||||||||
||||||||| It's not like we
||||||||||| go out of the way to eat fat,
|||||||||
||||||||| Some do....because they like fat and because they fill it
||||||||| provides
||||||||| satiety.
|||||||||
||||||||| but, I would rather think we have a
||||||||||| handle on what we eat and we can choose to eat foods that
||||||||||| are
||||||||||| not
||||||||||| fat free.
|||||||||
||||||||| That works....
|||||||||
||||||||||| Heck, we can also choose to eat fat free foods if we want
||||||||||| to.
|||||||||
||||||||| That would be straight protein or high-fiber veggies on a LC
||||||||| diet.
|||||||||
||||||||| I
||||||||||| do and it is fine with me. For example, I drink the low carb
||||||||||| milk
||||||||||| and the variety I like best is the low fat version....not a
||||||||||| bad
||||||||||| thing because it is low fat, I just happen to like it best.
|||||||||||
||||||||||| I think that some people are really stretching this food
||||||||||| thing
||||||||||| and
||||||||||| the
||||||||||| right of someone to choose to know what they are eating a
||||||||||| bit
||||||||||| out
||||||||||| of control....and to be part of a "Boston-based food issues
||||||||||| think
||||||||||| tank" no less.
|||||||||||
|||||||||
||||||||| I don't know what you're saying there.
|||||||||
||||||||||| Well, I just wanted to share the idea and article. (here is
||||||||||| the
||||||||||| website of the organization http://www.oldwayspt.org/ ).
|||||||||||
||||||||||| Sure, I don't eat ketchup, drink cranberry juice, both of
||||||||||| which
||||||||||| need so much sugar to be palatable, but does that make me
||||||||||| part
||||||||||| of
||||||||||| a fad diet? So what if I eat bread that is classified low
||||||||||| carb--maybe the slices are 50% thinner than 'regular'
||||||||||| bread--does
||||||||||| that make it 'bad'?
|||||||||||
||||||||||| Having been on low/almost no-fat for an extended period of
||||||||||| time
||||||||||| during
||||||||||| which I lost quite a bit of arm and leg muscle, I find the
||||||||||| extremes to
||||||||||| be problems. However, blending what I consider to be the
||||||||||| best
||||||||||| of
||||||||||| foods
||||||||||| out there, which may include low carb components, not to be
||||||||||| bad
||||||||||| thing. I have been doing low carb since July 22nd and find
||||||||||| it
||||||||||| not
||||||||||| to be a challenge to stay on induction at all. In fact, it
||||||||||| is
||||||||||| hard to move from it as I do not have really good self
||||||||||| control!
||||||||||| Five carbs a a
||||||||||| week increase is not easy to pull off.
|||||||||||
||||||||||| Probably should not be as touchy.
|||||||||||
||||||||||| FWIW.
||||||||||| Joe
|||||||||||
||||||||||| ps, I know about the cranberry and ketchup as I made a
||||||||||| batch of each--once--and was so amazed at how much sugar it
||||||||||| took to make
||||||||||| them both...I told .my dad, who was into maturity onset
||||||||||| diabetes
||||||||||| and into cranberry juice, because it was 'good for the
||||||||||| kidneys'
||||||||||| that it was not so good for the diabetes....He also liked
||||||||||| ketchup on his hamburgers and french fries(couldn't blame
||||||||||| him there)....he passed away at 80 with his first and only
||||||||||| heart
||||||||||| attack. He enjoyed food and I
||||||||||| am glad he did.
|||||||||||
|||||||||||
|||||||||||
||||||||||| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com -
||||||||||| Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure
||||||||||| Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup
||||||||||| Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---=
||||||||||| East/West-Coast
||||||||||| Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
|||||||||
||||||||
||||||||
||||||||
|||||||| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure
|||||||| Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup
|||||||| Service in the
|||||||| World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms -
|||||||| Total
|||||||| Privacy via Encryption =---
||||||
|||||
|||||
|||||
||||| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure
||||| Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup
||||| Service in the
||||| World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms -
||||| Total
||||| Privacy via Encryption =---
|||
||
||
||
|| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
|| News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the
|| World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total
|| Privacy via Encryption =---

HIT Fanatic wrote:
|| Hahahahahaha. I love it when the high-carb industry screams as they
|| are
|| dying. Why are pasta peddlers in Italy so concerned about how
|| Americans
|| eat anyhow? I thought that Europeans hated Americans and didn't care
|| for what they did?
||
|| In the summer of 2000 I lost 38 pounds by going low-carb. In order
|| to
|| impress/shock my family and friends I would melt a big slab of butter
|| and pour it on everything that I ate. They all claimed that I would
|| die
|| of a heart attack, though my blood pressure was as fit as a
|| professional
|| athlete's when all was said and done.
||
|| The high-carb industry is conspiring to get the government to put a
|| tax
|| on "high fat" foods. These assholes pay lip service to the "wonders
|| of
|| the free market" on TV but they are hardcore communists trying to get
|| the government to manipulate the market in favor of them.
||
|| Die, high-carbers, die. I shed nary a tear for you...

Well, it just the ones after profit that are the problem No need to kill
off the rest of them....some of them are quite nice to look at and stuff.

||
|| Papa Joe wrote:
|||
||| Hi
||| I read an
|||
article(http://www.xposed.com/health/nutriti...ck_amid_low-ca
rb_trend.aspx)
||| that spoke about pasta and how it(companies) is fighting back
||| against
||| low carbing..which is OK.
|||
||| But, I find one quote to be disturbing and probably incorrect--I
||| know
||| it is for me anyway--it goes:
|||
||| "How is it that it can be called a low-carb diet when in fact it is
||| a
||| dangerous high-fat diet? How can that happen in our culture?" railed
||| K. Dun Gifford, president of the Oldways Preservation Trust, the
||| Boston-based food issues think tank that organized the event."
|||
||| I don't know about others, but I do not find that the foods I eat
||| are
||| any more high fat than those who are not low carbing.It's not like
||| we
||| go out of the way to eat fat, but, I would rather think we have a
||| handle on what we eat and we can choose to eat foods that are not
||| fat
||| free. Heck, we can also choose to eat fat free foods if we want to.
||| I
||| do and it is fine with me. For example, I drink the low carb milk
||| and
||| the variety I like best is the low fat version....not a bad thing
||| because it is low fat, I just happen to like it best.
|||
||| I think that some people are really stretching this food thing and
||| the
||| right of someone to choose to know what they are eating a bit out of
||| control....and to be part of a "Boston-based food issues think tank"
||| no less.
|||
||| Well, I just wanted to share the idea and article. (here is the
||| website of the organization http://www.oldwayspt.org/ ).
|||
||| Sure, I don't eat ketchup, drink cranberry juice, both of which need
||| so much sugar to be palatable, but does that make me part of a fad
||| diet? So what if I eat bread that is classified low carb--maybe the
||| slices are 50% thinner than 'regular' bread--does that make it
||| 'bad'?
|||
||| Having been on low/almost no-fat for an extended period of time
||| during
||| which I lost quite a bit of arm and leg muscle, I find the extremes
||| to
||| be problems. However, blending what I consider to be the best of
||| foods
||| out there, which may include low carb components, not to be bad
||| thing. I have been doing low carb since July 22nd and find it not to
||| be a challenge to stay on induction at all. In fact, it is hard to
||| move from it as I do not have really good self control! Five carbs
||| a a
||| week increase is not easy to pull off.
|||
||| Probably should not be as touchy.
|||
||| FWIW.
||| Joe
|||
||| ps, I know about the cranberry and ketchup as I made a batch of
||| each--once--and was so amazed at how much sugar it took to make them
||| both...I told .my dad, who was into maturity onset diabetes and into
||| cranberry juice, because it was 'good for the kidneys' that it was
||| not so good for the diabetes....He also liked ketchup on his
||| hamburgers and french fries(couldn't blame him there)....he passed
||| away at 80 with his first and only heart attack. He enjoyed food
||| and I
||| am glad he did.
|||
||| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure
||| Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service
||| in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms
||| - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Well, thanks for the time and details...

Here is the details on the breakfast cereals--I mix all of them
together with some strawberries or melon pieces and, starting today,
'regular' fat free milk:

Post Carb Well-Total Fat=2g Total Carb=14g-Dietary Fiber-5g=9g net
Kelloggs Special K-Low Carb..Fat-3g,.Total Carb=14g-Fiber-5g=9g net
Kelloggs All Bran Extra Fiber-fat 1g, Total Carb=20g-fiber-13g=7g net
Sprinkle with Whole Grnd FlaxSeed meal-fat-4.5g,TotCarb=4-fiber4=net-0

The milk is a new thing--Hood Low Carb milk was 3 g per 8 oz--fat free
is 11...so I am guessing the bowl of cereal went from about 13-15 to
21-23...time and stix will tell.

I did low fat from February to July 2004 and then low carb from July
until now. This is so much easier and I do not consider this a diet
but a new way of eating and selecting foods. ..if there were only
lower carb popcorn...With the variety of new stuff coming out and
Walmart now stocking a large portion, the prices will all be coming
down. I have found a nice line of Soups at Walmart(I go there for the
fresh fruit and now the carb stuff) called Carb Focus--ready to eat in
18.3 ounce cans--two of the types are called 'Tuscan Style
Tomato(122g-3g=9g net--per can!) and 'Beef Fajita Style'-same size can
and 10g - 3 g=net 7g. I have had the chicken and Philly Steak
varieties and the carbs are about the same. They taste fine as it
appears the manufacturer may just be selective in the choice of
ingredients. One thing I like is that there is no Splenda in any of
them--I am leery of sweeteners after having seen the clock run on
previous ones. This one could be different though. I use some of the
mints and now gum with splenda, but not in excess..

Atkins mentioned that 'bottom feeder cold water fish--cod, and the
like were fine--I think one was not the best--possibly Halibut, but
none were problems.

63 grams is a nice number--I hit 60 yesterday and things are the same
this morning..lots of pistachio nuts last night had me wondering.

He did say/imply that there was no need to go overboard on any one
thing which i interpreted as not to go out of the way to eat fatty
foods. I do enjoy hamburgers and with the low carb(13g) rolls and 1 g
Ketchup(w/splenda) they are again more enjoyable.

From my documentation, I believe my downfall is the low carb pasta as
the next day the stix results move no matter what the previous day
meals accumulated to--if I had the macaroni I showed less.

However, I think my goal is to just show a trace reliably and
regularly and not gain weight. My goal was 165(arbitrarily set when I
was 192) and I find myself in the 155-158 range and staying there. It
appears that pants continue to loosen up and I am assuming, with the
weight staying the same, something is going on with the fat. I am a
skinny person, excepting the stomach and that is why I am continuing.
Only in the last 4-6 weeks has the stomach decreased noticeably...36
pants are now at worst, comfortable and at best--loose. I am assuming
that the little bit of exercise I do is moving the weight around.

Want to continue this via email as it is probably boring to
others...and maybe you too!

Thanks for being there.
Joe


On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:45:26 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
wrote:

Papa Joe wrote:
|| On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:05:00 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
|| wrote:
||
||| Papa Joe wrote:
||||| On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:34:11 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
||||| wrote:
|||||
|||||| Papa Joe wrote:
|||||||| Hi
|||||||| I am not sure if I agree that low carb means high fat. While
|||||||| it,
|||||||| in
|||||||| reality could be, it is not necessarily so.
||||||||
|||||||| Probably one who is not in continuous ketosis would either need
|||||||| fat
|||||||| or
|||||||| more carbs to satisfy the energy requirements, one who is in
|||||||| ketosis
|||||||| gets the fat elsewhere.
||||||||
|||||||| However, one could eat low carb foods and lay off the fat and
|||||||| still exist......at least I think so!
||||||||
|||||||| I don't eat a high fat diet and I am a low carb
|||||||| individual...granted
|||||||| for only 4 months or so, but, still, it is a low carb diet for
|||||||| me.
|||||||| I do not shun fat but do not look for it either.
|||||||
|||||| What we mean by a high fat diet is that the greatest precentage
|||||| of
|||||| calories
|||||| comes from fat. If your goal is weight loss, that typically does
|||||| not imply eating a lot of fat.
||||||
|||||| If you want to know for sure, simply use fitday.com to track your
|||||| eating for
|||||| a month or so. Most foods on a LC diet other than veggies are
|||||| high
|||||| fat. So unless you're only eating lean meat, lean fish & veggies
|||||| with no dressing,
|||||| you're likely getting a lot of your calories from fat.
|||||
||||| ........you mean no/low fat from the lean meat, fish and veggies
||||| with
||||| no dressing.....eggs, LC cereal, no fat&Low carb milk,
||||| Strawberries,
||||| and the food you mention do not ring true to high fat foods.
|||
||| I'm sorry, but i don't understand what you mean.
|| *********...I am just taking your words "Most foods on a LC diet
|| other than veggies are high| fat. So unless you're only eating lean
|| meat, lean fish & veggies" and saying I don't agree entirely, that's
|| all. That is what I eat and it/they are not what most would call high
|| fat. Yes, I know that Atkins does not restrict fat but in his book he
|| also uses 'sensible' a lot--I don't fill up on bacon and do look for
|| the leaner hamburger, but, mostly I eat what you refer to as high
|| fat--(Most foods on a LC diet other than veggies are high
|| fat. So unless you're only eating lean meat, lean fish & veggies
|| with no dressing" and disagreeing a bit as I do not consider them
|| high fat.

Okay, I think I follow you now. The thing is, protein will end up
converting to glucose in the body at a rate of 58%. So, if by getting your
calories from mostly protein and veggies, you could be knocking yourself out
of ketosis. And if you're not careful, you can have some other issues.
Aside from that, eating mostly lean meat & fish, and veggies with no dress
is boring and tasteless. How long have you been LCing? I hope you tell me 3
to 5 years, for if not, then it is doubtful in my mind that you'll be able
to continue.

||
||
||||| is
||||| in ketosis, I understood that the calories are mostly coming from
||||| the 'dissolved' fat.....and the under 25 carbs per day along with
||||| some
||||| unavoidable fat.....
|||
||| ? Again, I don't follow you. On a typical LC, Atkins style diet,
||| fat is not restricted, carbs are.
||
|| ..again, I am referring to Low carb and not Atkins--fat should be
|| restricted, IMHO, as excess of anything other than money or ??? is
|| not
|| good.

Consider this. You're either maintaining weight or losing (hopefully).
Therefore, you're not eating in excess. So if you're eating other things
beside fat, such as protein and veggie, then you definitely aren't eating
excessive amounts of fat.

Who says fat should be restricted? If in the presense are carbs, you'd
better be careful. But on a carb controlled diet, fat won't be harmful.

|| I think we are all here because we know carbs are restricted--hence
|| the title of the ng...
||
||
|| So if you eat meat, cheese, eggs, cream, fatty fish,(he(Atkins)
|| mentions the kinds of fish to avoid(fatty specimens)).

Like salmon? Avoid salmon?

The cream and
|| cheese I do not restrict but I am usually full so eating is just out
|| of habit! The eggs are one thing I have cut way back on since finding
|| the variety of low carb cereals--they are enjoyable with the low carb
|| milk and some strawberries, so the breakfast variety is opened a
|| little wider.

what LC cereals are you referring to? What are they made of? The ones that
contain flax have fairly high fat content.

||| nuts, etc, then you're going to be eating a goodly amount of fat.
||| Not neces sarily a lot of fat, because if your goal is weight loss
||| then carb
||| restriction will likely enable you to eat less food, and those lose
||| weight.
|||
|||||
||||| If one is a low carber , the goal may not be weight loss but that
||||| may
||||| be a by product of what is currently considered to be smart eating
||||| habits.
|||
||| Okay.
|||
|||||
||||| Dr Atkins just advised that a sensible amount of fat be ingested,
||||| but
||||| that restricted carbs were the key to both better health and
||||| weight
||||| loss. He did not say High Fat.
|||
||| What is a sensible amount of fat and what is high fat? I gave you
||| my
||| definition of high fat. If you are getting enough protein in your
||| diet,
||| then a sensible fat intake may be upto the amount it takes to
||| maintain your current weight. Fat, like carbs, aren't inherently
||| evil.
||
|| I look at it this way, which suits me and I cannot get an answer if
|| it
|| is correct or not:
||
|| If I can make the ketostix 'show' a bit, I am on the edge of having
|| enough carbs to maintain ketosis and, if I am either not gaining
|| weight or continue to lose, then I must not be eating very much fat.

What? I'd say your carb content is under control, but you could be eating
a goodly precentage of your diet in fat.

|| It works for me. My only concern, which I stated in an earlier post,
|| is how much of a problem is long term ketosis.....and, what is long
|| term? Now, I am eating an awful lot of food, not gaining weight and
|| keeping either a trace or better on the stix.

I don't think there is any problem with long-term ketosis. The body is
designed to function in ketosis and mankind is designed to strive on
different diets. To suggest that there is a problem with long-term ketosis
(without strong evidence to think such) is just to be a creator of FUD - the
notion that if mankind hasn't researched it and given long-term ketosis its
blessing, then it isn't safe to do. Nonsense. Mankind has been wrong so
many times in the pass that we have little reason to place such trust in its
ability to prove and issue one way or the other.

||
|| Heck, here is yesterdays eats:
|| Breakfast-large bowl of cereal with refill--say 15 grams....

What is your cereal? Many of the ones I've seen are high in fat content.

|| no lunch...did not feel like eating.
|| supper--2 slices of low carb bread(5 grams per slice) with sausage
|| and peppers(12)..2 glasses of low carb/low fat milk(6) and an
|| apple(12)..3 gram low carb candy bar at 1145PM...Low Carb Nacho Chip
|| 'Crumbs'...5
|| ...days total about 53.

be careful with the candy....it may be higher in carbs than the package
would lead you to believe. BTW, I got 63g.

||
|| I spent the day feeling filled and went to bed the same way. Woke up
|| and was at the same weight as the last two days.
|| As soon as I finsh the carton of low fat low carb milk, I am going to
|| 'regular' low fat milk to reduce the container congestion in the
|| 'fridge.
|| To me, that is both a lot of food and typical for me and not high
|| fat.
|| Sausage was pretty lean but still had fat content.
||
|| Heck we all are on the same page here. I really appreciate having a
|| place to read, discuss and look for insights...and add posts myself.
|| Thankfully there is a ng like this one where we can share.
|| I think usenet is the best part of the 'Internet'.
||
|| I thank all for their input and for putting up with mine.
|| Joe
||
|||
|||||
||||| I like this ng.
||||| Joe
||||| you don't have to
|||||| hunt it down, either, it just comes with the terrority. Also, it
|||||| is fairly
|||||| easy to control sat fat intake while eating a high fat LC diet.
|||||| My
|||||| sat fat intake rarely goes above 20% of overall calories.
||||||
||||||
|||||||
|||||||| FWIW.
|||||||| Joe
||||||||
||||||||
||||||||
|||||||| On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:12:17 -0500, "Roger Zoul"
|||||||| wrote:
||||||||
||||||||| Papa Joe wrote:
||||||||||| Hi
||||||||||| I read an
|||||||||||
|||||||||
||||||
|||
article(http://www.xposed.com/health/nutriti...ck_amid_low-ca
||||||||| rb_trend.aspx)
||||||||||| that spoke about pasta and how it(companies) is fighting
||||||||||| back
||||||||||| against low carbing..which is OK.
|||||||||||
||||||||||| But, I find one quote to be disturbing and probably
||||||||||| incorrect--I
||||||||||| know it is for me anyway--it goes:
|||||||||||
||||||||||| "How is it that it can be called a low-carb diet when in
||||||||||| fact
||||||||||| it
||||||||||| is a dangerous high-fat diet? How can that happen in our
||||||||||| culture?" railed K. Dun Gifford, president of the Oldways
||||||||||| Preservation Trust, the Boston-based food issues think tank
||||||||||| that
||||||||||| organized the event."
|||||||||
|||||||||
||||||||| The statement is incorrect, obviously. LC typically is a
||||||||| high-fat
||||||||| diet. That part is true. It is also a low-carb diet, so that
||||||||| is
||||||||| true. However, for most, it is not a dangerous diet at all.
||||||||| It
||||||||| is
||||||||| the so-called standard American diet that is dangerous,
||||||||| because
||||||||| it
||||||||| comes lots of carbs and lots of fat, along with an excess of
||||||||| calories. That combination is a killer. Also, for those who
||||||||| do
||||||||| well on a low-carb diet (diabetics and people with insulin
||||||||| resistance issues), a low-fat diet can be dangerous too.
|||||||||
|||||||||
|||||||||||
||||||||||| I don't know about others, but I do not find that the foods
||||||||||| I
||||||||||| eat
||||||||||| are any more high fat than those who are not low carbing.
|||||||||
||||||||| That can be very true. Those who are not low carbing and not
||||||||| eating low fat are probably getting plenty of fat and plenty
||||||||| of
||||||||| carbs. You've removed the carbs, which result in
||||||||| normalization
||||||||| of
||||||||| BG levels, resulting in reduced appetite. As are, you're not
||||||||| hungry on fewer calories than previously and you can lose
||||||||| weight.
|||||||||
||||||||| Of course, some find that they can still increase fat intake
||||||||| while
||||||||| keeping calories below that required to maintain their weight.
||||||||| They may be eating a greater amount of fat than before
||||||||| (especially
||||||||| if they were trained to be fat-aware like many in this country
||||||||| were). Yet they can still improve health and lose weight.
|||||||||
||||||||| In the absence of excessive carbs and excessive calories, a
||||||||| high-fat diet is very likely to not be dangerous.
|||||||||
||||||||| It's not like we
||||||||||| go out of the way to eat fat,
|||||||||
||||||||| Some do....because they like fat and because they fill it
||||||||| provides
||||||||| satiety.
|||||||||
||||||||| but, I would rather think we have a
||||||||||| handle on what we eat and we can choose to eat foods that
||||||||||| are
||||||||||| not
||||||||||| fat free.
|||||||||
||||||||| That works....
|||||||||
||||||||||| Heck, we can also choose to eat fat free foods if we want
||||||||||| to.
|||||||||
||||||||| That would be straight protein or high-fiber veggies on a LC
||||||||| diet.
|||||||||
||||||||| I
||||||||||| do and it is fine with me. For example, I drink the low carb
||||||||||| milk
||||||||||| and the variety I like best is the low fat version....not a
||||||||||| bad
||||||||||| thing because it is low fat, I just happen to like it best.
|||||||||||
||||||||||| I think that some people are really stretching this food
||||||||||| thing
||||||||||| and
||||||||||| the
||||||||||| right of someone to choose to know what they are eating a
||||||||||| bit
||||||||||| out
||||||||||| of control....and to be part of a "Boston-based food issues
||||||||||| think
||||||||||| tank" no less.
|||||||||||
|||||||||
||||||||| I don't know what you're saying there.
|||||||||
||||||||||| Well, I just wanted to share the idea and article. (here is
||||||||||| the
||||||||||| website of the organization http://www.oldwayspt.org/ ).
|||||||||||
||||||||||| Sure, I don't eat ketchup, drink cranberry juice, both of
||||||||||| which
||||||||||| need so much sugar to be palatable, but does that make me
||||||||||| part
||||||||||| of
||||||||||| a fad diet? So what if I eat bread that is classified low
||||||||||| carb--maybe the slices are 50% thinner than 'regular'
||||||||||| bread--does
||||||||||| that make it 'bad'?
|||||||||||
||||||||||| Having been on low/almost no-fat for an extended period of
||||||||||| time
||||||||||| during
||||||||||| which I lost quite a bit of arm and leg muscle, I find the
||||||||||| extremes to
||||||||||| be problems. However, blending what I consider to be the
||||||||||| best
||||||||||| of
||||||||||| foods
||||||||||| out there, which may include low carb components, not to be
||||||||||| bad
||||||||||| thing. I have been doing low carb since July 22nd and find
||||||||||| it
||||||||||| not
||||||||||| to be a challenge to stay on induction at all. In fact, it
||||||||||| is
||||||||||| hard to move from it as I do not have really good self
||||||||||| control!
||||||||||| Five carbs a a
||||||||||| week increase is not easy to pull off.
|||||||||||
||||||||||| Probably should not be as touchy.
|||||||||||
||||||||||| FWIW.
||||||||||| Joe
|||||||||||
||||||||||| ps, I know about the cranberry and ketchup as I made a
||||||||||| batch of each--once--and was so amazed at how much sugar it
||||||||||| took to make
||||||||||| them both...I told .my dad, who was into maturity onset
||||||||||| diabetes
||||||||||| and into cranberry juice, because it was 'good for the
||||||||||| kidneys'
||||||||||| that it was not so good for the diabetes....He also liked
||||||||||| ketchup on his hamburgers and french fries(couldn't blame
||||||||||| him there)....he passed away at 80 with his first and only
||||||||||| heart
||||||||||| attack. He enjoyed food and I
||||||||||| am glad he did.
|||||||||||
|||||||||||
|||||||||||
||||||||||| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com -
||||||||||| Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure
||||||||||| Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup
||||||||||| Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---=
||||||||||| East/West-Coast
||||||||||| Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
|||||||||
||||||||
||||||||
||||||||
|||||||| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure
|||||||| Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup
|||||||| Service in the
|||||||| World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms -
|||||||| Total
|||||||| Privacy via Encryption =---
||||||
|||||
|||||
|||||
||||| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure
||||| Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup
||||| Service in the
||||| World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms -
||||| Total
||||| Privacy via Encryption =---
|||
||
||
||
|| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
|| News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the
|| World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total
|| Privacy via Encryption =---




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---