(this is prett much like) drowning in booze

Luna wrote:
:: In article ,
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: "Doug Freyburger" wrote in message
::: ups.com...
:::: Luna wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::::
:::: On the one hand ...
::::
::::: Oh for goodness sake, it's Halloween! Yes, I know there's an
::::: epidemic of childhood obesity, but it's not caused by Halloween,
::::: it's caused by a long term lifestyle of junk food and inactivity.
:::::
::::: Sweets can have a reasonable place in a child's life, as a special
::::: treat, without leading to obesity ....
::::
:::: On the other hand ...
::::
:::::: It's very wrong to give poison to someone else's kids.
::::
:::: I don't know where the compromise is. Before 20 ounce full sugar
:::: sodas
:::: it wasn't bad to give candy that wasn't otherwise eaten. Now, I
:::: have a
:::: harder time.
:::
::: I know where th compromise is for me. Just say NO.
:::
::: The think displayed by Luna is used everyday by parents and adults
::: concerning kids and IMO it's a huge contributor to these problems.
::
:: No, it isn't. The huge contributors a no more recess, no more
:: playing outside, fast food instead of home cooked food. Candy at
:: Halloween is not what makes kids fat. Hey, at least going door to
:: door they're at least getting some exercise. ;o)

Candy at Halloween and similar times plays to the notion that "treats" are
candy. Candy = good, as treat = good. If kids stop learning to enjoy candy
as a treat, then the lack of recess, not playing outside, fast food, will
have less impact on weight gain. It's when you combined these things then
problems ramp up even faster.

Your logic is that Halloween is but one day. What I'm saying is that what
kids experience on Halloween sets the bar in their minds eye as to what's
good, because it is a very memorable day for most little kids. On this day
and others like it (birthdays, Christmas, etc) we teach them to crave sweet
junk food. And we give them piles of it.

::
::: Our kids
::: are basically shut-ins now so real activity is virtually gone. We
::: need to change and stop treating them with junk. And why is it
::: that the cheapest, most nutritionaly void junk food considered a
::: treat?
::
:: Because it's not good for you, but it tastes good (to kids'
:: unsophisticated immature palettes anyway) so it should only be eaten
:: on rare occasions. Like Halloween!
::

We don't teach kids that junk food should only be eaten on rare occasions.
We teach them that it's a treat and kids like treats all year long, not just
on Halloween. Halloween is one of the days where the get maximum exposure.

BTW, most good food does take good.

:::
::::
:::: Very small kids love colorful balloons. They'll even take them
:::: voluntarily over quarters. Last year we got a big cluster of
:::: helium balloons to give to the younger kids. Above some age it was
:::: quarters, and for close by neighbors dollars.
:::
::: Both of these are very good ideas, IMO.
:::
::::
:::: Halloween is a harvest festival. Yet I haven't been to an arts and
:::: crafts show with corn dollies for several years. Urbanite that I
:::: am, to me harvest is about going to the grocery store ...

In article ,
"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Luna wrote:
:: In article ,
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: "Doug Freyburger" wrote in message
::: ups.com...
:::: Luna wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::::
:::: On the one hand ...
::::
::::: Oh for goodness sake, it's Halloween! Yes, I know there's an
::::: epidemic of childhood obesity, but it's not caused by Halloween,
::::: it's caused by a long term lifestyle of junk food and inactivity.
:::::
::::: Sweets can have a reasonable place in a child's life, as a special
::::: treat, without leading to obesity ....
::::
:::: On the other hand ...
::::
:::::: It's very wrong to give poison to someone else's kids.
::::
:::: I don't know where the compromise is. Before 20 ounce full sugar
:::: sodas
:::: it wasn't bad to give candy that wasn't otherwise eaten. Now, I
:::: have a
:::: harder time.
:::
::: I know where th compromise is for me. Just say NO.
:::
::: The think displayed by Luna is used everyday by parents and adults
::: concerning kids and IMO it's a huge contributor to these problems.
::
:: No, it isn't. The huge contributors a no more recess, no more
:: playing outside, fast food instead of home cooked food. Candy at
:: Halloween is not what makes kids fat. Hey, at least going door to
:: door they're at least getting some exercise. ;o)

Candy at Halloween and similar times plays to the notion that "treats" are
candy. Candy = good, as treat = good. If kids stop learning to enjoy candy
as a treat, then the lack of recess, not playing outside, fast food, will
have less impact on weight gain. It's when you combined these things then
problems ramp up even faster.


I think when you eliminate all sweet things from a child's diet, that
makes that food even more appealing to a child. This is mostly based on
anecdotal evidence though, most specifically my cousins who were not
allowed candy ever and so were constantly coming up with ways to sneak
it.

Your logic is that Halloween is but one day. What I'm saying is that what
kids experience on Halloween sets the bar in their minds eye as to what's
good, because it is a very memorable day for most little kids. On this day
and others like it (birthdays, Christmas, etc) we teach them to crave sweet
junk food. And we give them piles of it.


I disagree with the idea that we teach kids to crave sweets. I believe
that children naturally have an affinity for sweet tastes and an
aversion to bitter, a biological trait that evolved so children would
avoid eating poisonous substances.

::
::: Our kids
::: are basically shut-ins now so real activity is virtually gone. We
::: need to change and stop treating them with junk. And why is it
::: that the cheapest, most nutritionaly void junk food considered a
::: treat?
::
:: Because it's not good for you, but it tastes good (to kids'
:: unsophisticated immature palettes anyway) so it should only be eaten
:: on rare occasions. Like Halloween!
::

We don't teach kids that junk food should only be eaten on rare occasions.
We teach them that it's a treat and kids like treats all year long, not just
on Halloween. Halloween is one of the days where the get maximum exposure.

BTW, most good food does take good.

To adults, broccoli and spinach can taste delicious. Kids have more
taste buds so the bitterness in some vegetables is much more intense to
them.

In article ,
"Roger Zoul" wrote:

"Luna" wrote

In article ,
"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Oh for goodness sake, it's Halloween!

Yeah, Halloween isn't the problem. However, please tell me how Halloween
doesn't reinforce the issue? Kids get piles of candy to pig out on...are
you kidding? Your entire message below seem to be as if you've dropped in
a
vacuum and have forgotten where these kids live. I'd agree with you 100%
if
candy were only an occasional treat, but it's the rule not the exception,
for many of these kids.

So, on a fun holiday, when many of these kids have put in lots of time,
effort, and imagination to dress up in costumes, and have been looking
forward to going trick-or-treating for weeks now, is that really the
right time to sit in judgment on the way parents raise their kids all
year long?

Er, yes! What better time? Hey, stop people and look at how you're treating
your kids. Give the bags of junk to bring home...spend good money on
spiderman outfits and walk them through the neighborhood...the one day of
the year when you actually go through the neighborhood streets with your
kids...and for what? To gather up junk food?

Just because some of us have problems controlling ourselves
around certain foods, does that really mean the foods are "evil" or
"poison" and we should decide to be the arbiters of who is allowed to
have those foods?

Hey, I don't have problems controlling myself around the junk anymore.
That's an easy one there. But when chubby little Sarah gets a few years
older, her parents will wish they had not played into the "junk food are
treats" game so much. And what's wrong with a roll of nickels, anyway?

That's right...take the leftovers to work to fatten
up the crowd there.

Yes, I'm sure the three small bags of skittles I have left (couldn't
find gummy worms) are going to ruin someone's life. Can we get a little
perspective?

Like you need to bother taking three small bags of skittles to work...No
doubt your coworkers will have their own junk to bring, too.


Moreover, why do single people how have no kids buy into Halloween
anyway.
I do get it for parents, though.

*shrug* It's fun.

Anyway, if so many people here are so concerned with the health of other
people's children, what do you do the rest of the year to help fix the
problem? Do you petition schools to reinstate recess when they cancel
it? Do you petition your local governments for more parks and
sidewalks? Do you write to grocery stores in poor neighborhoods
demanding they stock higher quality fresh produce and meats? Or is
Halloween the one time of year when you feel like you're really making a
difference by not giving out candy?

Yes! Of course, if I had kids I might be doing some of those other things,
but not giving out candy is the least I can do.


I'm not saying you should give out candy if you don't want to. You
don't have to give out anything, of course. Little toys or money is a
cute idea actually. But a previous poster's suggestion of giving out
broccoli as some sort of protest just seemed ridiculous to me and got me
riled up. Imo, ymmv of course.


And of course that poster was kidding, too.

I guess working at a private international school with very few
overweight kids might have skewed my views on this issue.

Even at a school such as this one, "junk as a treat" is a notion that ought
to be discouraged.


Eh, I don't think so. Junk food as the _only_ treat is a bad idea, I
would say. Other treats that we employ are extra recess time, letting
the kids pick the game instead of the adults, an occasional video when
it's a rain day (even though too much tv is bad for you), letting a
child read the book to everyone at story time, stickers as rewards for
good behavior, surprising kids with a special arts and crafts supply
that would be too expensive to use on a daily basis, etc.

The reason these things are treats is because they're out of the
ordinary, not an every day thing.

And even when there is a food treat (like when the cafeteria gave us
freshly made from scratch oatmeal cookies one day for snack) it should
definitely be limited. That day led to a teaching opportunity with the
kids, a discussion of "growing foods" and "fun foods" and how fun foods,
like cookies, taste good but are not good for our bodies if we eat too
much, so that's why the kids only got one cookie.

Our cafeteria does an excellent job of providing tasty and healthy
meals, and the evidence of the kids who bring lunches seems to show that
the parents also know a lot about nutrition. They all get two recess
periods a day, _plus_ P.E. and the school also does a monthly "Screens
Off" day when kids and parents turn off the tv's and computers and do
activities together and the kids present projects based on those
activities. It's a school where it's considered "cool" to not even own
a television, and 3rd graders start their own book clubs without any
prompting from adults, just because they love to read so much.

The school is very academically challenging, and most of the kids work
very hard and are really good people, not just "good kids." It's a
pleasure to be able to give them treats, food ones as well as other
kinds, because they are so appreciative and imo, they deserve it.

Look back at the way childhood was before we had this obesity epidemic.
There were occasional sweets given back then, so that makes me think
it's not things like Halloween, birthdays, and Christmas that have
caused the epidemic. Everyone with children or who works with children
should definitely strive to improve kids' health, but I just don't see
eliminating all sweet things to be the answer.

Luna writes:

In article ,
"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Oh for goodness sake, it's Halloween!

Yeah, Halloween isn't the problem. However, please tell me how
Halloween doesn't reinforce the issue? Kids get piles of candy to
pig out on...are you kidding? Your entire message below seem to be as
if you've dropped in a vacuum and have forgotten where these kids
live. I'd agree with you 100% if candy were only an occasional
treat, but it's the rule not the exception, for many of these kids.

Yep. The kids I know get so much candy at Halloween, Easter, and every
parade in the summertime that if they just had it for a moderate snack
once a day, it'd last all year.

So, on a fun holiday, when many of these kids have put in lots of time,
effort, and imagination to dress up in costumes, and have been looking
forward to going trick-or-treating for weeks now, is that really the
right time to sit in judgment on the way parents raise their kids all
year long? Just because some of us have problems controlling ourselves
around certain foods, does that really mean the foods are "evil" or
"poison" and we should decide to be the arbiters of who is allowed to
have those foods?

I don't think anyone's saying we should lecture the little goblins or
their parents at your door, or grab the bags of candy out of their hands
and flush it. There's just no need to add to it, when you can stock
other treats or toys, or just turn your lights off.



--
Aaron -- 285/254/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

"em" wrote in message ...
Not one damn kid came. I'm going to throw the candy in the trash. Next
year its toys, stickers and temp tattoos, like Tom and Nanner suggested. I
was also thinking about coloring books and crayons for the little ones and
markers or some kind of art thing for the bigger kids. I wish I would have
thought ahead rather than running out and buying candy at the last minute.

i spent $6 and have a ton left over for next year. no complaints from the
kids either

Roger Zoul wrote:
Luna wrote:

::::: Sweets can have a reasonable place in a child's life, as a special
::::: treat, without leading to obesity ....
::::
:::: On the other hand ...
::::
:::::: It's very wrong to give poison to someone else's kids.
::::
:::: I don't know where the compromise is. Before 20 ounce full sugar
:::: sodas
:::: it wasn't bad to give candy that wasn't otherwise eaten. Now, I
:::: have a
:::: harder time.
:::
::: I know where th compromise is for me. Just say NO.
:::
::: The think displayed by Luna is used everyday by parents and adults
::: concerning kids and IMO it's a huge contributor to these problems.
::
:: No, it isn't. The huge contributors a no more recess, no more
:: playing outside, fast food instead of home cooked food. Candy at
:: Halloween is not what makes kids fat. Hey, at least going door to
:: door they're at least getting some exercise. ;o)

Candy at Halloween and similar times plays to the notion that "treats" are
candy. Candy = good, as treat = good. If kids stop learning to enjoy candy
as a treat, then the lack of recess, not playing outside, fast food, will
have less impact on weight gain. It's when you combined these things then
problems ramp up even faster.

Your logic is that Halloween is but one day. What I'm saying is that what
kids experience on Halloween sets the bar in their minds eye as to what's
good, because it is a very memorable day for most little kids. On this day
and others like it (birthdays, Christmas, etc) we teach them to crave sweet
junk food. And we give them piles of it.



Whenever I go into the grocery stores at holidays, I see oceans and
oceans of candy. It is saddening to see, as an adult.

Whenever I go into Sam's Club, there is a section I call "Sugar Shack"
where the candies and snacks are all over the place.

Sugar (sucrose) is a "modern abberation" for most peoples who live in
temperate climates, and constitutes one of the largest dietary changes
in our evolution. In the last 400 years, we have gone from nearly zero
pounds of sugar per year to almost a half a pound per day. Not all of
that is "candy".

Both sugar and arsenic are "natural". There is a small quantity of
arsenic which we can ingest regularly (very small).

Habits that promote or almost honoring sugar as we have them in our
modern "industrial foods" culture are probably more profitable than healthy.

I suspect that we long ago passed the point where sugary "treats"
actually make much sense in a healthy society.

There is the counter logic that argues that since we can consume and
afford this much sugar, then we should feel free to do so.

Unlike cigarettes, the Surgeon General has not fully addressed the
health issues as they are a little less unique. Lung cancer was very
rare before the great popularization of cigarette smoking, and lung
cancer was easily labeled as unhealthy as a result.

Diabetic (type II) diabetic children used to be very rare ..........

Luna wrote:
:: In article ,
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Luna wrote:
::::: In article ,
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: "Doug Freyburger" wrote in message
:::::: ups.com...
::::::: Luna wrote:
:::::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::::
::::::: On the one hand ...
:::::::
:::::::: Oh for goodness sake, it's Halloween! Yes, I know there's an
:::::::: epidemic of childhood obesity, but it's not caused by
:::::::: Halloween, it's caused by a long term lifestyle of junk food
:::::::: and inactivity.
::::::::
:::::::: Sweets can have a reasonable place in a child's life, as a
:::::::: special treat, without leading to obesity ....
:::::::
::::::: On the other hand ...
:::::::
::::::::: It's very wrong to give poison to someone else's kids.
:::::::
::::::: I don't know where the compromise is. Before 20 ounce full
::::::: sugar sodas
::::::: it wasn't bad to give candy that wasn't otherwise eaten. Now, I
::::::: have a
::::::: harder time.
::::::
:::::: I know where th compromise is for me. Just say NO.
::::::
:::::: The think displayed by Luna is used everyday by parents and
:::::: adults concerning kids and IMO it's a huge contributor to these
:::::: problems.
:::::
::::: No, it isn't. The huge contributors a no more recess, no more
::::: playing outside, fast food instead of home cooked food. Candy at
::::: Halloween is not what makes kids fat. Hey, at least going door to
::::: door they're at least getting some exercise. ;o)
:::
::: Candy at Halloween and similar times plays to the notion that
::: "treats" are candy. Candy = good, as treat = good. If kids stop
::: learning to enjoy candy as a treat, then the lack of recess, not
::: playing outside, fast food, will have less impact on weight gain.
::: It's when you combined these things then problems ramp up even
::: faster.
:::
::
:: I think when you eliminate all sweet things from a child's diet, that
:: makes that food even more appealing to a child. This is mostly
:: based on anecdotal evidence though, most specifically my cousins who
:: were not allowed candy ever and so were constantly coming up with
:: ways to sneak it.

Actually, I'm not saying we should eliminate all sweet things from a kid's
diet. A home-made treat on special occasions is probably ok. I'm saying we
(actually, i'm dreaming and I know it) should get rid of candy, or at the
least, not use it to tempt our children. I.e., don't make it a treat. No
one said "trick or treat" had to involve candy....it's a tradition, though.
I'm questioning that tradition.

::
::: Your logic is that Halloween is but one day. What I'm saying is
::: that what kids experience on Halloween sets the bar in their minds
::: eye as to what's good, because it is a very memorable day for most
::: little kids. On this day and others like it (birthdays, Christmas,
::: etc) we teach them to crave sweet junk food. And we give them
::: piles of it.
::
::
:: I disagree with the idea that we teach kids to crave sweets. I
:: believe that children naturally have an affinity for sweet tastes
:: and an aversion to bitter, a biological trait that evolved so
:: children would avoid eating poisonous substances.
::

I think there is truth to this but the bad aspects of it are amplified when
we feed them man-made sweet things (ie, cheap junk food). If kids could
only ate what grows from the ground or what crawls, swims, or flies, things
would be much different. Our kids would be super kids compared to what they
are now if they could be rid of the junk food diet or if we really only gave
them candy on Halloween.

:::::
:::::: Our kids
:::::: are basically shut-ins now so real activity is virtually gone. We
:::::: need to change and stop treating them with junk. And why is it
:::::: that the cheapest, most nutritionaly void junk food considered a
:::::: treat?
:::::
::::: Because it's not good for you, but it tastes good (to kids'
::::: unsophisticated immature palettes anyway) so it should only be
::::: eaten on rare occasions. Like Halloween!
:::::
:::
::: We don't teach kids that junk food should only be eaten on rare
::: occasions. We teach them that it's a treat and kids like treats all
::: year long, not just on Halloween. Halloween is one of the days
::: where the get maximum exposure.
:::
::: BTW, most good food does take good.
::
:: To adults, broccoli and spinach can taste delicious. Kids have more
:: taste buds so the bitterness in some vegetables is much more intense
:: to them.

I don't disagree.

Aaron Baugher wrote:

:: I don't think anyone's saying we should lecture the little goblins or
:: their parents at your door, or grab the bags of candy out of their
:: hands and flush it. There's just no need to add to it, when you can
:: stock other treats or toys, or just turn your lights off.

Just for the record, though, I do like the idea of "trick or threat". I'd
hate to see it go away. I just want to change it up a bit.

em wrote:
:: Not one damn kid came. I'm going to throw the candy in the trash.
:: Next year its toys, stickers and temp tattoos, like Tom and Nanner
:: suggested. I was also thinking about coloring books and crayons for
:: the little ones and markers or some kind of art thing for the bigger
:: kids. I wish I would have thought ahead rather than running out and
:: buying candy at the last minute.

Did you leave your front lights on or put up something scary in the yard? If
kids are out "trick or treating", they will come if you send the right
signals. Maybe you live in a place that scares the hell out of parents. If
so, and the kids didn't come, that's a good thing.

Good on you for tossing the candy. Some would think of it as food and try
to give it away.

em wrote in message ...
Not one damn kid came. I'm going to throw the candy in the trash.
Next year
its toys, stickers and temp tattoos, like Tom and Nanner suggested. I
was
also thinking about coloring books and crayons for the little ones
and
markers or some kind of art thing for the bigger kids. I wish I would
have
thought ahead rather than running out and buying candy at the last
minute.


OK, so when they don't show up next year, what are you going to do
with that stuff? I think it would be better to give them something
*you* can use if they don't show. :-)


Cheri