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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
Hi there,
I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate protein, super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am able to do the treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes (depending on the movie I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3 degrees incline. I do this for mental health benefits and of course the long-term physical effects. One thing I wish to avoid however is muscle catabolization. I am running a caloric deficit at the moment, and I've heard it's inescapable that you will lose muscle in such a scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good physical condition (I think), only very slightly overweight. My probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a problem? Etc. Thanks folks, -Chad |
#2
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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
you can minimize muscle loss by eating sufficient protein and weight
training (you might even gain some muscle mass). running a calorie deficit with additional cardio is more likely to result in muscle loss... Chad C. wrote: :: Hi there, :: :: I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a :: refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate :: protein, super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am :: able to do the treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes :: (depending on the movie I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3 :: degrees incline. I do this for mental health benefits and of course :: the long-term physical effects. One thing I wish to avoid however is :: muscle catabolization. I am running a caloric deficit at the moment, :: and I've heard it's inescapable that you will lose muscle in such a :: scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good physical condition (I :: think), only very slightly overweight. My :: probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know :: glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical :: exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to :: keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will :: it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this :: protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can :: this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a :: problem? Etc. :: :: Thanks folks, :: :: -Chad |
#3
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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
I'm very interested in this too, tho more for mental energy than
physical. Low carbing has improved my health in many ways, and cut out some energy 'lows', but I seldom feel quite up to strenuous mental work, doing projects, etc. Skinny --------------- On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:54:51 -0700, "Chad C." wrote: Hi there, I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate protein, super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am able to do the treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes (depending on the movie I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3 degrees incline. I do this for mental health benefits and of course the long-term physical effects. One thing I wish to avoid however is muscle catabolization. I am running a caloric deficit at the moment, and I've heard it's inescapable that you will lose muscle in such a scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good physical condition (I think), only very slightly overweight. My probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a problem? Etc. Thanks folks, -Chad |
#4
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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
How long have you been LCing?
Skinny wrote: :: I'm very interested in this too, tho more for mental energy than :: physical. Low carbing has improved my health in many ways, and cut :: out :: some energy 'lows', but I seldom feel quite up to strenuous mental :: work, doing projects, etc. :: :: Skinny :: --------------- :: :: :: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:54:51 -0700, "Chad C." :: wrote: :: ::: Hi there, ::: ::: I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a ::: refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate ::: protein, super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am ::: able to do the treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes ::: (depending on the movie I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and ::: 3 degrees incline. I do this for mental health benefits and of ::: course the long-term physical effects. One thing I wish to avoid ::: however is muscle catabolization. I am running a caloric deficit at ::: the moment, and I've heard it's inescapable that you will lose ::: muscle in such a scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good ::: physical condition (I think), only very slightly overweight. My ::: probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know ::: glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical ::: exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to ::: keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will ::: it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this ::: protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can ::: this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a ::: problem? Etc. ::: ::: Thanks folks, ::: ::: -Chad |
#5
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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
Thanks for your comments Roger. Is it because cardio might result in say,
300 calories burned in the space of 30 minutes, and lipolysis can't do that sufficiently so then muscle protein is catabolized for immediate energy use and dietary protein is ignored? Why is dietary protein ignored in such a case? -Chad "Roger Zoul" wrote in message ... you can minimize muscle loss by eating sufficient protein and weight training (you might even gain some muscle mass). running a calorie deficit with additional cardio is more likely to result in muscle loss... Chad C. wrote: :: Hi there, :: :: I've asked this question before in various flavors but now I have a :: refinement, a tangent curiosity. I'm eating a high fat, moderate :: protein, super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. I am :: able to do the treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes :: (depending on the movie I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3 :: degrees incline. I do this for mental health benefits and of course :: the long-term physical effects. One thing I wish to avoid however is :: muscle catabolization. I am running a caloric deficit at the moment, :: and I've heard it's inescapable that you will lose muscle in such a :: scenario. I am 24 years old, in fairly good physical condition (I :: think), only very slightly overweight. My :: probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know :: glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical :: exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to :: keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will :: it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this :: protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can :: this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a :: problem? Etc. :: :: Thanks folks, :: :: -Chad |
#6
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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
Chad C. wrote:
My probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a problem? Etc. From what I've read, training while eating a low-carbohydrate diet will generally result in enhanced ability to burn fat - dietary and/or body fat - for energy while exercising. Note that this doesn't happen automatically, but that you need to train for it over a periof of time, many weeks to months. Like any other training. But for most people, in time efficiency will increase, and that has certainly been my experience. It makes sense, after all, that humans would be adapted through evolution to be able to run long distances in order to pursue game even on a (ketogenic) paleolithic winter diet of mostly meat and fat. I particularly liked reading "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman, one of the world's all-time best ultra-long-distance runners. Mittleman's claim is that you need to train your body to run primarily on fat, because you generally have a substantial store of that, compared to limited glycogen/carb stores. He doesn't eat an extremely low carbohydrate diet, nor would he be expected to, given his level of activity, but definitely emphasizes olive oil, nuts, protein foods as well as low-starch vegetables. Definitely lower-carb than the SAD. It's a good read for anyone interested in endurance athletic performance activites, such as life HG |
#7
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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:40:51 -0400, Hannah Gruen
wrote: Chad C. wrote: My probably wrong and grotesquely-simplified theory is thus: I know glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? Will this protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, or is it even a problem? Etc. From what I've read, training while eating a low-carbohydrate diet will generally result in enhanced ability to burn fat - dietary and/or body fat - for energy while exercising. Note that this doesn't happen automatically, but that you need to train for it over a periof of time, many weeks to months. Like any other training. But for most people, in time efficiency will increase, and that has certainly been my experience. It makes sense, after all, that humans would be adapted through evolution to be able to run long distances in order to pursue game even on a (ketogenic) paleolithic winter diet of mostly meat and fat. I particularly liked reading "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman, one of the world's all-time best ultra-long-distance runners. Mittleman's claim is that you need to train your body to run primarily on fat, because you generally have a substantial store of that, compared to limited glycogen/carb stores. He doesn't eat an extremely low carbohydrate diet, nor would he be expected to, given his level of activity, but definitely emphasizes olive oil, nuts, protein foods as well as low-starch vegetables. Definitely lower-carb than the SAD. It's a good read for anyone interested in endurance athletic performance activites, such as life HG Working out aerobically while in calorie deficit is going to burn body fat and dietary protein. There is a limit to the number of calories you can expend per minute though. When I was first starting out with low carb it was real tough to burn any faster than about .04 calories per pound of body weight per minute without feeling stale and tired. If you search for information about fasting and muscle catabolism you will find some good explanations about the problems of keeping muscle while in calorie deficit. Although tearing yourself up sprinting or weight lifting to excess is not going to be very productive without cycling carbs you can tone and do less energetic cardio workouts to rebuild some of the lost muscle. Trying to build muscle while in calorie deficit is always going to be a compromising venture. Having a carb up every few weeks and ripping yourself out at full effort may give you a psychological boost that is worth a week of weight gain though. You get a nice pump from the extra glycogen in the muscles and some people say it resets metabolism at a higher rate. |
#8
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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
"Chad C." wrote in message ...
I do this for mental health benefits and of course the long-term physical effects. I am curious about mental health benefits. I too have found myself more "stable" on LC. My agoraphobia just *went away*. What I had thought for years were panic or phobic symptoms, were the symptoms of my blood sugar crashing when I was out and about - when I was most likely to eat sugar and high carb foods. Interestingly, I have Attention Deficit Disorder, but for years was not believed to have the hyperactive variant. Since being LC, I am discovering I *AM* hyperactive... now that my physical energy level is a lot higher the hyperactivity is very, very obvious. |
#9
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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
Chad C. wrote:
I'm eating a high fat, moderate protein, super low (Atkins Induction level) carbohydrate diet. Why not increase your carbs on schedule per the Atkins core process? It is more effective at fat loss than staying low no matter that you want less to be more, that you believe less to be more. I am able to do the treadmill just fine for my standard 36-42 minutes (depending on the movie I'm watching ), at 4.3mph (6.9km/hr) and 3 degrees incline. I do this for mental health benefits and of course the long-term physical effects. This is well under marathon levels. One thing I wish to avoid however is muscle catabolization. I am running a caloric deficit at the moment, and I've heard it's inescapable that you will lose muscle in such a scenario. Atkins-like low carbing generally loses less lean than other weight loss systems. Should not be an issue. If your sweat begins to smell of amonia, you have begun burning lean. I know glycogen can provide a very quick release of energy for physical exertion. Can lipolysis-ketosis come very close? Will it attempt to keep up to the body's needs of energy by burning more fat, or will it resort to supplementing with burning protein as well? This is where my comment about marathoners comes in. Marathons are designed so that no human can complete them while having any stored glycogen left. Marathons are long enough that a marathoner *must* do at least part of the run burning fat not carbs. And they do that. So certainly ketosis *can* deliver all of the energy you need. As long as you're in good enough shape or the exercise you're doing is far enough from a marathon. By your description you're not in terrible shape and your example is well below the marathon level. You're fine. Will this protein come from dietary sources, or muscle tissue, or both? With burned fuel, there is no difference. It has to be digested first and once digested the body makes no distinction. Can this effect be ameliorated in a ketogenic diet, Sure, but best to do it at OWL levels not Induction levels. You will have access to more energy before you "hit the wall" by running out of glycogen *and* moving to OWL somehow helps the fat burning get more efficient. or is it even a problem? Not once you're past 1) 20 grams or 2) 2 week. |
#10
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Ketogenic diets and high energy output needs
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