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Food fight! Food fight!



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 3rd, 2012, 07:36 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
James Warren
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 150
Default Food fight! Food fight!

On 8/3/2012 1:50 PM, wrote:
On Aug 3, 11:50 am, Dogman wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 01:21:24 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
The principle anchors the comforting American belief that personal
responsibility explains all of our ills.


If personal responsibility worked you could go to the mall and not see
fat people.


I don't know exactly what you mean by that, Doug. How does "personal
responsibility" not work?


What he means and which I agree with is that clearly it usually
doesn't work in practice.


What? Are you psychic, too?


Doug will probably weigh in with his thougts. And I'll
bet my take is right. By saying that personal responsibility
isn't working he means that it doesn't work from a
practical perspective.

Capiche now?



Personal responsibility works. I don't know how taking responsibility
for your weight problem wouldn't work. By definition, taking
responsibility for it means you will succeed.


It doesn't work because like Doug said, if it did you
would not see all the fat people at the mall. We
would not have an obesity epidemic.



A lot of people try to excercise personal
responsibility when it comes to dieting.


If they were taking responsibility, it would work. It stops working
when they stop taking responsibility.


That's like arguing that they wouldn't be fat
if they weren't fat.


By defining responsibility equals success, it is impossible to fail
if one takes responsibility. The word responsibility is therefore no
longer needed or useful.





They try a variety
of diets and still fail because in the end, it's very difficult.


It can be difficult, but that's what taking responsibility means. You
do the difficult things as well as the easy ones.


OK. We have people who are personally responsible
in all other aspects of their lives. They have good jobs.
They pay their bills. They put their kids through school.
The stay out of trouble with the law. So, clearly most
people out there have a high degree of personal
responsibility. But yet, when they try to lose weight,
they fail. The obvious point is that the level of personal
responsibility that you require them to have, is
impossible for most people. It's like saying willpower
can overcome anything for most people, including
holding their hand in a fire. It just doesn't work that
way and hence the "personal responsibility" approach
is a proven failure when it comes to dieting.




Throwing one's hands in the air and giving up is the personification
of not taking responsibility.


And tilting at windmills, pretending that personal
responsibility is going to somehow cure obesity is just as
foolish.





Yes the problem for you is that Doug apparently doesn't
buy your vast evil conspiracy theory either. Companies are
simply producing the products that people want. It';s
how the free market works.


I figured that was common knowledge by now.


You wouldn't know it from your constant bitching about
drug companies.


Exercise is beneficial for other reasons.


You bet. But it doesn't really help anyone lose weight, and can even
help to increase your weight, chance of injury, etc.


Which of course is nonsense. That's your problem in general.
You take something that has a bit of validity and then run it out
to extremes, turn it into nonsense, and disregard the mountain of
evidence that says you're wrong.


There is a mountain of evidence out there, anecdotal and scientific,
that suggests that exercising simply to lose weight is essentially a
waste of time.


It's no more a waste of time than expecting "personal
responsibility" to cure obesity. Neither has proven
successful in reversing the obesity epidemic.



If you don't eat properly, you can exercise until the
cows come how, and you won't lose much if any weight.


BS. The Nazi concentration camps proved that.



If you're
exercising properly, you're probably building muscle. Muscle weighs
more than fat, so you're probably going to gain weight, not lose it.


I see, so the 400lb fat guys on The Biggest Loser
wound up at 450lbs. Which season was that?




Again, this is something that you can prove to yourself, and pretty
easily.

You brought up The Biggest Loser show. What exactly
is going on there? They are losing weight at fantastic
rates on a variety of diets and a lot of it is because they
are excercising at levels few ordinary folks would ever
reach.


Exactly! No one is going to do that!


The issue isn't that no one is going to do that.
You're really confused here. First you argue that
personal responsibility works. Then you argue that
excercising does not. Now you agree that people
on that show were losing weight due in part to
the excercise.

So, why isn't this then an issue where excercise
works, but people just won't do it in the real world.
Just like people have proven that personal
responsibility doesn't work in dieting either?






They also have a huge support and motivation
system that almost no one else excercising "personal
responsibility" has.


Exactly! And no one is going to have that.

That's where personal responsibility comes in.


Oh God, you just go in circles.




Maybe you should try excersice
and see the effects. I have and it works.


Yes, it works, but it doesn't make you lose weight.


You just agreed above that it did make people
lose weight on Biggest Loser.




First you argue that excercise doesn't do any good
and can make you gain weight, now you're endorsing
some excercise.


Of course I endorse exercise, you moron! But not to lose weight! We
should exercise to become more fit, etc.

The vast majority of us are not even fit enough to exercise, because
we're so overweight that anything but walking short distances is
dangerous to our joints, our heart, etc.


Speak for yourself. If you're so fat you can't
excercise, that's an issue of personal responsibility....




I don't know of any health authority
that says excercise has to be "very moderate" for
the typical person trying to lose weight. You have a
source for that?


Find me a "health authority" who suggests that a seriously obese man
can do anything but moderate exercise! Seriously obese people can
barely walk, much less enter a CrossFit competition.


The experience we all see on The Biggest Loser says
you're wrong. And clearly they have health authorities who
have cleared the people participating. Now, who should
we all believe, you or our lying eyes?






Yes, and greed has also produced everything from all
the drugs that have saved the lives of hundreds of millions to the
iPhone.


I don't know. Subtract all the people it harmed or killed from the
people it helped, and it's probably a wash.


Good. Next time you're seriously ill, call a hippie
and try some meditation.




  #12  
Old August 3rd, 2012, 08:06 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Food fight! Food fight!

On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:14:21 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Aug 3, 1:39*pm, Dogman wrote:

But whether taking personal responsibilty is "practical," is a moot
point.


It's not a moot point because it's obviously not
working


And the reason it's not working is that they haven't actually taken
the responsibility to make it work.

It doesn't work


Of course it does! The evidence is all around you!

The fat people you see haven't taken responsibility.

The healthy and fit people you see, have.


Uh huh and the obese ones are growing in numbers
each year.


If something can't go on forever, it won't.

So, personal responsibility is not working
for most people. That is the point Doug is making
too.


Again, you can't be a little bit pregnant. Either you take
responsibility, or you don't.

OK. *We have people who are personally responsible
in all other aspects of their lives. *They have good jobs.
They pay their bills. *They put their kids through school.
The stay out of trouble with the law. *So, clearly most
people out there have a high degree of personal
responsibility.


But we're not talking about those things! *We're talking about taking
responsibilty for your own health, your own weight, etc.


We are talking about it now because I brought it up.
I gave those as obvious examples that show most
people do have a considerable amount of personal
responsibility.


Then they wouldn't be fat!

In other words the biological urges governing eating
and weight are so strong that saying all that's
needed is personal responsibility doesn't work for
most people when it comes to diet.


It works for anyone and everyone who actually takes responsibility,
instead of just talking about it.

The same goes for other addictions.

The obvious point is that the level of personal
responsibility that you require them to have, is
impossible for most people.


I don't believe that. Sorry.


That's OK, given all the nonsense that you believe,
like HIV doesn't cause AIDS and that no
virus can cause cancer, that is actually a comfort.


People who believe in prions, HIV, HCV, unicorns, leprechauns, believe
that statins are always good for you and should even be given to 9
year olds, that HPV causes cervical cancer, that Gardisil should be
given to every girl and boy as young as 12, etc. shouldn't be throwing
stones.

It's like alcohol and drug addiction. Until someone hits bottom and
finally decides that the pain and misery just isn't worth it, he
remains addicted. Some people just don't make it. That's life.


It's not just some people. It's a growing obesity epidemic
that gets worse each year.


So what? Our society reeks of a lack of personal responsibility, so it
shouldn't come as any surprise that people are getting fatter,
unhealthier, etc. It goes with the territory.

Because that is exactly what the obese person trying
to diet has to do. Unlike an alcoholic, they can't just
avoid food.


Of course they can! They can avoid eating too much of the wrong
things!

They can't avoid eating food with their
family and friends either.


No, but they can eat the right things!

You think maybe, just maybe, that's why personal
responsibility is failing?


Personal responsibility never fails!

Either you've taken it, or you haven't.

Throwing one's hands in the air and giving up is the personification
of not taking responsibility.


And tilting at windmills,


What's foolish about realizing that you *must* keep trying, do more
research, etc. to maintain one's health?


It's foolish when you have a public health crisis and
that approach clearly isnt' working.


That's partly because people are not encouraged to take personal
responsibility for their actions anymore.

To do otherwise is to admit defeat before you even start.


It's not like we're just starting. We have 3 decades of failure
with obesity getting significantly worse each year.


Yeah, and it may take several more decades to get the ship turned
around, too.

If you don't eat properly, you can exercise until the
cows come how, and you won't lose much if any weight.


BS. *The Nazi concentration camps proved that.


How exactly did concentration camps prove that??? *They were starved,
they lost almost all of their weight (virtual skeletons), and most
died. What should they have been doing? Running marathons?


They proved it by the fact that they were doing hard
forced labor, eating little and losing weight.


Why did you leave out the part about being starved to death???

How well do you think you'd do on bread and water?

You claimed
that excercise without eating right won't cause weight
loss.


Exactly. You can work out until the cows come home, but you won't lose
any weight if you eat too much of the wrong foods. In fact, you'll
often GAIN weight. Football players, for example.

They were not eating right,


They were not just not eating right, they were being starved to death,
you moron.

Yes, it works, but it doesn't make you lose weight.


You just agreed above that it did make people
lose weight on Biggest Loser.


They diet! They lose weight from dieting!


Oh, I see now it's back to they only lost weight
due to dieting, not from excercise. But wait....
You claimed they should have put on weight from
the excercise. Confused again.


That you permantly live in a state of confusion is not really that
hard to believe.

I've explained exactly what I mean, I've done it several times now,
and I won't be doing it again.

First you argue that excercise doesn't do any good
and can make you gain weight, now you're endorsing
some excercise.


Of course I endorse exercise, you moron! But not to lose weight! We
should exercise to become more fit, etc.


The vast majority of us are not even fit enough to exercise, because
we're so overweight that anything but walking short distances is
dangerous to our joints, our heart, etc.


Speak for yourself. *If you're so fat you can't
excercise, that's an issue of personal responsibility....


Exactly!


Well, I'm sorry to hear you say that you're so fat
you can't excercise, but I'm not surprised either.


I exercise at least 2-3 times per week (cardio, interval training,
weights, etc), and I have 10% body fat. I took personal
responsibility for getting there, so I got there. It wasn't always
easy, like it is now. I.e., I wasn't always there, but then again, I
haven't always taken responsibility for my health, weight, etc.

But I didn't lose any weight by exercising, nor do I keep it off by
exercising. I could stop exercising altogether and my weight wouldn't
vary but by a few pounds, +/-. I got this way, and stay this way, by
eating properly. Period.

What I get from exercising is just icing on the cake.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
 




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