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  #21  
Old August 16th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Nunya B.
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"Ignoramus23305" wrote in message
...
On 16 Aug 2005 10:08:24 -0700, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Intuitive smoothing formulas work at least as well
as formal ones. As long as the person looks at the
trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and
avoids freaking out, all is well. As long as enough
data points are taken that a trend can be found,
all is well. I don't want anyone to overreact and
only weigh monthly on the principle that the time
scale for loss is month to month. The water retention
noise needs more data to resolve the monthly trend.


Month to month data is not free of noise, either.

Rational approach to life demands gathering relevant information and
then analyzing it with an open mind, with the purpose of using it to
further one's objectives. As such, daily scale readings are helpful if
one realizes (as you mentioned) that weight is a sum of trend plus
noise.

Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable
mistakes. If someone acts irrationally after seeing unexpected numbers
on the scale, that's their problem (and a sign of other problem) and
not, as such, any proof that daily weighings are not useful.


The daily weighings aren't useful to *that* person which doesn't make *that*
person wrong. I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having
actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL
issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This is
why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix
your head." People who have an emotional reaction to the scale can work
around it. I know I have and it's working fine for me. Then again I
actually admit that I *have* emotions and I enjoy life much more for it.

Dealing with emotions is not easy which is why I suspect you just live in
your little world of denial. I certainly prefer to have genuine human
emotions (good and bad) that help me lead a full, balanced, healthy, fit,
and passionate life than to be so emotionally suppressed that I can only use
negative emotions to beat up people with claims of being either slim or
plump depending on who I am trying to insult or manipulate. Losing weight
may help you get a smaller ass but it doesn't make you less of one.

--
the volleyballchick


  #22  
Old August 16th, 2005, 09:32 PM
Doug Freyburger
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Nunya B. wrote:
Ignoramus23305 wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:


... As long as the person looks at the
trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and
avoids freaking out, all is well. As long as enough
data points are taken that a trend can be found,
all is well. I don't want anyone to overreact and
only weigh monthly on the principle that the time
scale for loss is month to month. The water retention
noise needs more data to resolve the monthly trend.


Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable
mistakes. If someone acts irrationally after seeing unexpected numbers
on the scale, that's their problem (and a sign of other problem) and
not, as such, any proof that daily weighings are not useful.


The daily weighings aren't useful to *that* person which doesn't make *that*
person wrong. I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having
actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL
issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This is
why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix
your head." People who have an emotional reaction to the scale can work
around it. I know I have and it's working fine for me. Then again I
actually admit that I *have* emotions and I enjoy life much more for it.


The reason I urge newbies to avoid the scale is because so many
newbies have emotional reactions to what the scale says today;
they don't know about water retention bounce yet. Is it true of
all newbies? No. Is it true of very many newbies? Yes. I
have to go with the trend.

And because context is everything I urge folks about to
transition to maintenance to do daily weighings because they
need to learn their own water bounce. Can all folks emotionally
handle daily weighings at that point? No. Can most? Yes. No
matter that there are exceptions to the trend, at that point
knowing is important.

When I urge newbies to avoid the scale for a while and only
weigh weekly, there is a chorus from folks years into their
own plan asserting that they do fine with daily weighings.
Major context disconnect. So what that someone who's been
weighing daily for years no longer has a problem with it.
That's not the common newbie context.

The conundrum is that the scale gives objective numbers that
contain signal noise and new folks tend to look at scale
readings emotionally rather than objectively. It takes
reassurance and time to get past that conundrum. A small
number never hit this conundrum (say someone who weighed
daily for years before starting), some get past it quick,
some get past it slow, some get emotional when stepping on
the scale even a year after starting.

  #23  
Old August 16th, 2005, 10:09 PM
Nunya B.
external usenet poster
 
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"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message
oups.com...
Nunya B. wrote:
Ignoramus23305 wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:


... As long as the person looks at the
trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and
avoids freaking out, all is well. As long as enough
data points are taken that a trend can be found,
all is well. I don't want anyone to overreact and
only weigh monthly on the principle that the time
scale for loss is month to month. The water retention
noise needs more data to resolve the monthly trend.


Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable
mistakes. If someone acts irrationally after seeing unexpected numbers
on the scale, that's their problem (and a sign of other problem) and
not, as such, any proof that daily weighings are not useful.


The daily weighings aren't useful to *that* person which doesn't make
*that*
person wrong. I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having
actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL
issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This
is
why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix
your head." People who have an emotional reaction to the scale can work
around it. I know I have and it's working fine for me. Then again I
actually admit that I *have* emotions and I enjoy life much more for it.


The reason I urge newbies to avoid the scale is because so many
newbies have emotional reactions to what the scale says today;
they don't know about water retention bounce yet. Is it true of
all newbies? No. Is it true of very many newbies? Yes. I
have to go with the trend.

And because context is everything I urge folks about to
transition to maintenance to do daily weighings because they
need to learn their own water bounce. Can all folks emotionally
handle daily weighings at that point? No. Can most? Yes. No
matter that there are exceptions to the trend, at that point
knowing is important.

When I urge newbies to avoid the scale for a while and only
weigh weekly, there is a chorus from folks years into their
own plan asserting that they do fine with daily weighings.
Major context disconnect. So what that someone who's been
weighing daily for years no longer has a problem with it.
That's not the common newbie context.

The conundrum is that the scale gives objective numbers that
contain signal noise and new folks tend to look at scale
readings emotionally rather than objectively. It takes
reassurance and time to get past that conundrum. A small
number never hit this conundrum (say someone who weighed
daily for years before starting), some get past it quick,
some get past it slow, some get emotional when stepping on
the scale even a year after starting.


My comments weren't directed at you. Your follow-up is dead on and easily
understandable by even the most ignorant of people. I expect that he will
justify his position and somehow determine that his bizzare way of looking
at things is the norm while somehow the rest of the world is wrong because
that's what he does.

Some people don't get over the emotions that come with the scale. Some do.
As long as you have an alternative tool to deal with the necessary need to
have some kind of monitoring, who cares as long as it's working? I'm not
afraid to admit that two years after my main weight loss phase that the
fluctuations still bother me and I know from private conversations with
others that I am nowhere near alone in this. In my case they mean my
hormones are way out of whack again because my fluctuations are still in the
10 lb range. At least I'm not blaming a scale malfunction for any sudden
weight gains nor am I letting it deter me from keeping a major weight loss
off.
--
the volleyballchick


  #24  
Old August 16th, 2005, 10:22 PM
Nunya B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ignoramus23305" wrote in message
.. .
On 16 Aug 2005 13:32:57 -0700, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Nunya B. wrote:
Ignoramus23305 wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

... As long as the person looks at the
trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and
avoids freaking out, all is well. As long as enough
data points are taken that a trend can be found,
all is well. I don't want anyone to overreact and
only weigh monthly on the principle that the time
scale for loss is month to month. The water retention
noise needs more data to resolve the monthly trend.

Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable
mistakes. If someone acts irrationally after seeing unexpected numbers
on the scale, that's their problem (and a sign of other problem) and
not, as such, any proof that daily weighings are not useful.

The daily weighings aren't useful to *that* person which doesn't make
*that*
person wrong. I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having
actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL
issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This
is
why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step
"fix
your head." People who have an emotional reaction to the scale can work
around it. I know I have and it's working fine for me. Then again I
actually admit that I *have* emotions and I enjoy life much more for it.


I would not consider a person who gives up dieting or does stupid
things after seeing simple, objective data from the scale, to be
someone who has "fixed his or her head". Such behavior is about as far
from a properly working head, as it gets.


And you're probably the last person who could actually judge that.

The conundrum is that the scale gives objective numbers that
contain signal noise and new folks tend to look at scale
readings emotionally rather than objectively.


There is no reason why a person cannot experience emotions (such as
upset or celebration), and yet act rationally and not stupidly.


Sure there are plenty of reasons. However you will continue to ignore what
doesn't fit into your little universe and then go ahead and judge the
actions of others based on your extremely rigid and unnatural beliefs about
human behavior.

It takes reassurance and time to get past that conundrum. A small
number never hit this conundrum (say someone who weighed daily for
years before starting), some get past it quick, some get past it
slow, some get emotional when stepping on the scale even a year
after starting.


Note that in maintenance, for someone who eats roughly as much as it
is necessary to maintain weight, there is no (or very little if the
balance is a bit off) upward or downward trend. Only noise. And noise
(random fluctuations) adds up as more and more time elapses between
observations.


Wrong again. You have again assumed that everyone experiences the same
thing as you, though we don't all blame our scales for a sudden weight gain.
Didn't you just recently post that someone you know had an unexplained
sudden 10+ lb gain? Of course we should all just ignore the medical
professionals and listen to an internet ignoramus.

So, if you weigh less frequently during maintenance, you will see
greater weight fluctuations between weighings, if you weigh less often.


There are plenty of people who weigh weekly (less often than daily) or
monthly and don't see much fluctuation at all compared to a daily weigher.
You are assuming information without any evidence aka stating an opinion as
if it were fact. I know successful maintainers, including myself, who weigh
monthly and are able to keep fluctuations to a minimum. When my feet swell
up, I get on the scale to monitor the fluctuation (10+ lbs) and it has
NOTHING to do with the fact that I don't weigh daily since my food logs show
I eat consistently. My personal experience and that of actual human beings
I deal with is evidence to me that you're full of crap.

Also, while daily weighing works for some people, it's not recommended by
actual experts in the field of weight loss and eating disorders for
EVERYONE. But, of course, we should all ignore the experts who do this
research for a living and listen to an internet ignoramus. Well, no. I'll
trust Kelly Brownell over you any day since if I'd followed your advice I'd
have given up before even starting because I would have been "beyond a point
of no return" or some other such drama queen crap you've posted.

--
the volleyballchick


  #25  
Old August 16th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Doug Freyburger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nunya B. wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote
Nunya B. wrote:
Ignoramus23305 wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:


... As long as the person looks at the
trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and
avoids freaking out, all is well ...


Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable
mistakes ...


I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having
actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL
issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This
is
why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix
your head." ...


The reason I urge newbies to avoid the scale is because so many
newbies have emotional reactions to what the scale says today;
they don't know about water retention bounce yet. Is it true of
all newbies? No. Is it true of very many newbies? Yes. I
have to go with the trend.


My comments weren't directed at you.


I know, but I often advise newbies to stay off the scale
except weekly (on ASD and ASDLC) and I often get flack
for those posts.

Your follow-up is dead on and easily
understandable by even the most ignorant of people.


Thanks.

Some people don't get over the emotions that come with the scale. Some do.
As long as you have an alternative tool to deal with the necessary need to
have some kind of monitoring, who cares as long as it's working? I'm not
afraid to admit that two years after my main weight loss phase that the
fluctuations still bother me and I know from private conversations with
others that I am nowhere near alone in this. In my case they mean my
hormones are way out of whack again because my fluctuations are still in the
10 lb range. At least I'm not blaming a scale malfunction for any sudden
weight gains nor am I letting it deter me from keeping a major weight loss
off.


I got over it after discussing the matter of signal noise
with a fellow engineer who was dieting and doing data
smoothing. I worry about what I don't understand so for
me what it took was understanding that scale flucuations
act like line noise. A strategy that seems to work well
on engineers, scientists, actuaries, statisticians and
other mathophiles.

My water retention swing is 6 pounds. I know from
discussion on various boards and groups that this is a
higher number than most men. I don't understand why that
is, but once I learned the number I was able to figure out
what was noise and what was signal. For me, understanding
the pattern works better than understanding why I happen
to be along the bell curve on something.

  #26  
Old August 16th, 2005, 10:47 PM
Nunya B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message
oups.com...
Nunya B. wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote
Nunya B. wrote:
Ignoramus23305 wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:


... As long as the person looks at the
trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and
avoids freaking out, all is well ...


Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable
mistakes ...


I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having
actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL
issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not.
This
is
why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step
"fix
your head." ...


The reason I urge newbies to avoid the scale is because so many
newbies have emotional reactions to what the scale says today;
they don't know about water retention bounce yet. Is it true of
all newbies? No. Is it true of very many newbies? Yes. I
have to go with the trend.


My comments weren't directed at you.


I know, but I often advise newbies to stay off the scale
except weekly (on ASD and ASDLC) and I often get flack
for those posts.

Your follow-up is dead on and easily
understandable by even the most ignorant of people.


Thanks.

Some people don't get over the emotions that come with the scale. Some
do.
As long as you have an alternative tool to deal with the necessary need
to
have some kind of monitoring, who cares as long as it's working? I'm not
afraid to admit that two years after my main weight loss phase that the
fluctuations still bother me and I know from private conversations with
others that I am nowhere near alone in this. In my case they mean my
hormones are way out of whack again because my fluctuations are still in
the
10 lb range. At least I'm not blaming a scale malfunction for any sudden
weight gains nor am I letting it deter me from keeping a major weight
loss
off.


I got over it after discussing the matter of signal noise
with a fellow engineer who was dieting and doing data
smoothing. I worry about what I don't understand so for
me what it took was understanding that scale flucuations
act like line noise. A strategy that seems to work well
on engineers, scientists, actuaries, statisticians and
other mathophiles.

My water retention swing is 6 pounds. I know from
discussion on various boards and groups that this is a
higher number than most men. I don't understand why that
is, but once I learned the number I was able to figure out
what was noise and what was signal. For me, understanding
the pattern works better than understanding why I happen
to be along the bell curve on something.


Yeah, I have to agree - after all of this time of knowing it's going to
happen, the water swing doesn't get to me as deeply as it did in the past.
--
the volleyballchick


  #27  
Old August 16th, 2005, 10:48 PM
Doug Freyburger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ignoramus23305 wrote:

There is no reason why a person cannot experience emotions (such as
upset or celebration), and yet act rationally and not stupidly.


There is a cliche "Courage is not lack of fear. Lack of fear
is rashness. Courage is having fear and acting anyways."

My correlary that applies to diet is "Patience is not lack
of frustration. Lack of frustration could be anything from
ignorance through nirvana. Patience is being frustrated and
continuing on-plan anyways."

Many folks think I'm extremely patient. I stick to stuff year
after year. Don't think I'm not frustrated often. No, I
just ask myself what the alternatives are. Would I rather
keep chugging through my frustration, or would I rather quit
and gain to more than when i started? I know what happens to
folks who quit. They come back a few years later bigger than
when they first started or they never come back. I'd rather
be frustrated thanx.

  #28  
Old August 16th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Doug Freyburger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nunya B. wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

My water retention swing is 6 pounds. I know from
discussion on various boards and groups that this is a
higher number than most men. I don't understand why that
is, but once I learned the number I was able to figure out
what was noise and what was signal. For me, understanding
the pattern works better than understanding why I happen
to be along the bell curve on something.


Yeah, I have to agree - after all of this time of knowing it's going to
happen, the water swing doesn't get to me as deeply as it did in the past.


The long term view: I suggest this means you are over taking
the scale emotionally. The direction you are heading is more
important than the place you are starting from. Hold your
head straight forward and what you see is the problem solved.
Holding your head straight forward, that's also called
holding your head high. A sign of pride in your own
accomplishment.

  #29  
Old August 17th, 2005, 03:27 AM
Chris Braun
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Default

On 16 Aug 2005 08:19:45 -0700, "Beverly"
wrote:

I wonder if the age at which obesity occurs might also be a factor? I
never had a weight problem until my mid 40's (onset of menopause) so I
had several years of eating at a maintenance level under my belt.


This seems extremely plausible, though it doesn't apply to me. I was
overweight in varying degrees for my entire adult life until a year
ago. But I think over the course of losing weight and becoming an
active person I've sort of morphed into someone who knows how :-).
Honestly, I sometimes feel like the same brain in an alien body --
everything works so differently now than it once did!

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004
  #30  
Old August 17th, 2005, 03:31 AM
Chris Braun
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Posts: n/a
Default

On 16 Aug 2005 07:37:25 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
wrote:

Chris and Beverly both mentioned roll your own. Both
experienced and well-read folks years into their
process. Neither newbies.


Well, we were both newbies once. I was a newbie three years ago, and
began with a "roll my own" plan. After two years of weight loss and
one year of maintenance, I'm still doing much the same thing. I do
think it's possible to approach a "roll your own" diet in an
intelligent way. Not everyone approaches it from a position of
ignorance, you know.



Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004
 




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