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Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie



 
 
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  #51  
Old February 5th, 2007, 02:18 AM posted to alt.support.diet
Chris Braun
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 512
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie

On 4 Feb 2007 16:35:36 -0800, "Caleb" wrote:

But there are many, many roads to Rome and the one you took worked
for. Great again about your success! But you cannot declare by fiat
that no other methods work. (Or you can, but it is nonsensical to do
so.)


I didn't say anything about your method -- other than the quitting
after 100 days and regaining part. That is obviously not effective. I
also lost weight through a calorie-limiting approach. For me, a less
restrictive calorie level seemed likely to be more sustainable over
the long run, and practice seems to be bearing that out. However, some
people have been very successful with medically-supervised very-low
calorie diets. All those plans, though, include an approach to
gradually ramp up to a more normal maintenance level and recognize the
need for a permanent change in one's eating habits. That's the part
of your approach that I feel justified in saying will not work -- the
quitting after 100 days part. And your experience supports my view.

Life is complicated for everyone - there will never be any more
Renaissance people, people who know everything there is to know. But
we compartmentalize our ignorance somewhat. (Okay, my computer works -
it's magic. These little electrons go zapping around and words appear,
etc. I drive over bridges but don't know exactly how the bridges are
built, how they're tested for stress, etc.) If I can find techniques
that help me do the things - especially the important things -- I want
to do, then I am happy with that. And I am happy with some of the
simple techniques and insights that have come my way.


I'm curious to know what insights those are. Is there something that
has improved over the years in the way you're doing this? That hasn't
been apparent to me, I guess. It seems like you do just the same
thing each year.

Our stance should be one of support rather than vitriol, humility
rather than arrogance. There are too many cock-sure people in the
world who have little reason to be that way. Let's let a thousand
flowers bloom!


I find it hard to believe that you perceived my posting as vitriolic
or arrogant.

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004
  #52  
Old February 5th, 2007, 02:21 AM posted to alt.support.diet
SFrunner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 241
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie

On Feb 4, 5:04 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Caleb" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Feb 4, 10:49 am, "teachrmama" wrote:
"determined" wrote in message


m...


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


"LFM" wrote in message
news


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


Teachrmama - if you are truely interested in a dialog with this
poster,
please take it to Alt.support.diet.low-calorie You will find very
little support of this poster in here


Actually, there are topics here that I do not enter opinions on
because
they are of no interest to me. It is easy to just skip over them. I
understand that you feel great disdain for this poster, but you are
not
required to read his posts, or any conversations that he is in. I
always
respond respectfully to other posters, and do not feel that my
conversation with Caleb is violating any of this newsgroup's rules and
regulations. If you were standing behind me in the grocery store and
I
were carrying on a conversation with Caleb, would you ask that we go
to
McDonald's and discuss things, rather than conversing in a public
place
you just happened to be in? With all due respect, that is how I feel
you
are speaking to me here.


You know what? Caleb is nothing more than a troll... The fact that
you
want to maintain a dialogue with a troll kind of hurts your own
credibility. It doesn't take a whole lot of knowledge of diet/health to
know that his approach is not healthy or effective at permanent weight
loss. If you can't figure that out for yourself, fine. But it leaves
the
rest of us here who have seen him go through this countless times
absolutely flabbergasted and exasperated.


I agree with you that losing weight and regaining it is not a good way to
maintain a healthy weight or lifestyle. I certainly have no intentions
of
following such a plan. I have come too far in my own efforts to want to
try
a plan that is not a total change to a new way of eating. But I am
curious
as to Caleb's reasons for the choices he is making, and how he came to
make
the choices he has. Maybe he comes back here repeatedly because he is
learning new approaches each time he comes. I see him as very polite--I
haven't seen him trying to force his choices on anyone else. I do hope
that
he will realize that if he continues with the healthy eating choices he
makes in the 100 days, he will be healthier than if he regains and
reloses
the same weight time after time. But having polite conversations with
him
does not mean that I am espousing his choices, and I am not certain why
it
riles up some of the regular posters here. I find that odd.


Teachrmama -- I endorse totally what you are saying. I do not want to
regain the weight and I sure hope I don't. But I am learning new
techniques each time I try this. Rather like stepping into the same
stream twice -- things change.


Good. I'm glad to hear that. For me, I have found that extremely low
calorie approaches lead only to overindulgence when I do begin to eat
"normally" again. So the approach I have chosen is to eat the way I want
to eat for the rest of my life, and to exercise the way I want to exercise
for the rest of my life. Then I never have to go "off a diet." I'm set.
And can make minor adjustments here and there as needed. I do hope you have
chosen an approach this time that will become a lifestyle rather than just a
diet. =c)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


FYI...if you had done any searching at all, you would have found all
the answers to your questions. It's quite easy. This one is from 2002:


"What Caleb does with his own body is obviously his right. But
through many
postings, Caleb has made it clear he sees himself on some sort of
"mission",
to disprove what he sees as some "myths" of dieting.


He personifies some of the real problems with diets. Among them:


1) Fixation on "scale" weight. I have never seen him show any concern
for
what he is actually losing (fat vs muscle). Obviously, he's lost
fat. But
at this point, he is probably losing far more muscle than fat.


2) Fixation on an "end date". Each year, he pays lip service to
continuing
on with "maintenance", and keeping up with the supposed "good habits"
he
learns during his 100 days. IMO, the problem is he is NOT learning
"good
habits"; he is basically starving himself for a fixed period, after
which he
feels free to return to his normal eating.


3) And again, IMO Caleb is a walking, talking example of what some
refer to
as "starvation mode". For example, Caleb has just spent 10 or so
days, at
1000 cals or less, at 203 lbs. Unless one assumes he is just eating
more
than he knows, the metabolic effect is undeniable. Caleb's answer?
Starve
himself more to break this "plateau", by eating what, 200 calories?


Seriously, I wish Caleb the best of luck, and hope he somehow comes to
find
a way of maintaining his weight loss.


I know he will not listen to criticism of his approach, and the
suggestions
some have made to help him. That doesn't mean, however, that the
errors he
makes shouldn't be pointed out at times, to help others avoid the
same
mistakes."


Well, obviously, as he reappears year after year after year after
year, he hasn't learned a thing since 2002 and before.

Go ahead and do some searching, it will answer all your questions.




  #53  
Old February 5th, 2007, 02:26 AM posted to alt.support.diet
teachrmama
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 338
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie


"The Queen of Cans and Jars" wrote in message
. ..
teachrmama wrote:

I'm just not clear on why you think that gives you the right to tell me I
shouldn't talk to him either.


Talk to him all you want - in the group that he set up for talking about
it. Is it really all that hard to understand?


Actually, yes it is. Why shouldn't we be free to talk here? There are
certainly some extremely obnoxious threads here right now that haven't been
jumped on the way this rather innocuous thread has been.


  #54  
Old February 5th, 2007, 02:41 AM posted to alt.support.diet
The Queen of Cans and Jars
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 399
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie

teachrmama wrote:

"The Queen of Cans and Jars" wrote in message
. ..
teachrmama wrote:

I'm just not clear on why you think that gives you the right to tell me I
shouldn't talk to him either.


Talk to him all you want - in the group that he set up for talking about
it. Is it really all that hard to understand?


Actually, yes it is. Why shouldn't we be free to talk here?


You are free to talk about it here, but don't whine when people
complain. No one wants to hear Caleb's bull**** for the umpteenth time.

  #55  
Old February 5th, 2007, 02:44 AM posted to alt.support.diet
teachrmama
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 338
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie


"SFrunner" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 4, 5:04 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Caleb" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Feb 4, 10:49 am, "teachrmama" wrote:
"determined" wrote in message


m...


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


"LFM" wrote in message
news


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


Teachrmama - if you are truely interested in a dialog with this
poster,
please take it to Alt.support.diet.low-calorie You will find
very
little support of this poster in here


Actually, there are topics here that I do not enter opinions on
because
they are of no interest to me. It is easy to just skip over them.
I
understand that you feel great disdain for this poster, but you are
not
required to read his posts, or any conversations that he is in. I
always
respond respectfully to other posters, and do not feel that my
conversation with Caleb is violating any of this newsgroup's rules
and
regulations. If you were standing behind me in the grocery store
and
I
were carrying on a conversation with Caleb, would you ask that we
go
to
McDonald's and discuss things, rather than conversing in a public
place
you just happened to be in? With all due respect, that is how I
feel
you
are speaking to me here.


You know what? Caleb is nothing more than a troll... The fact that
you
want to maintain a dialogue with a troll kind of hurts your own
credibility. It doesn't take a whole lot of knowledge of diet/health
to
know that his approach is not healthy or effective at permanent
weight
loss. If you can't figure that out for yourself, fine. But it
leaves
the
rest of us here who have seen him go through this countless times
absolutely flabbergasted and exasperated.


I agree with you that losing weight and regaining it is not a good way
to
maintain a healthy weight or lifestyle. I certainly have no
intentions
of
following such a plan. I have come too far in my own efforts to want
to
try
a plan that is not a total change to a new way of eating. But I am
curious
as to Caleb's reasons for the choices he is making, and how he came to
make
the choices he has. Maybe he comes back here repeatedly because he is
learning new approaches each time he comes. I see him as very
polite--I
haven't seen him trying to force his choices on anyone else. I do
hope
that
he will realize that if he continues with the healthy eating choices
he
makes in the 100 days, he will be healthier than if he regains and
reloses
the same weight time after time. But having polite conversations with
him
does not mean that I am espousing his choices, and I am not certain
why
it
riles up some of the regular posters here. I find that odd.


Teachrmama -- I endorse totally what you are saying. I do not want to
regain the weight and I sure hope I don't. But I am learning new
techniques each time I try this. Rather like stepping into the same
stream twice -- things change.


Good. I'm glad to hear that. For me, I have found that extremely low
calorie approaches lead only to overindulgence when I do begin to eat
"normally" again. So the approach I have chosen is to eat the way I
want
to eat for the rest of my life, and to exercise the way I want to
exercise
for the rest of my life. Then I never have to go "off a diet." I'm set.
And can make minor adjustments here and there as needed. I do hope you
have
chosen an approach this time that will become a lifestyle rather than
just a
diet. =c)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


FYI...if you had done any searching at all, you would have found all
the answers to your questions. It's quite easy. This one is from 2002:


"What Caleb does with his own body is obviously his right. But
through many
postings, Caleb has made it clear he sees himself on some sort of
"mission",
to disprove what he sees as some "myths" of dieting.


He personifies some of the real problems with diets. Among them:


1) Fixation on "scale" weight. I have never seen him show any concern
for
what he is actually losing (fat vs muscle). Obviously, he's lost
fat. But
at this point, he is probably losing far more muscle than fat.


2) Fixation on an "end date". Each year, he pays lip service to
continuing
on with "maintenance", and keeping up with the supposed "good habits"
he
learns during his 100 days. IMO, the problem is he is NOT learning
"good
habits"; he is basically starving himself for a fixed period, after
which he
feels free to return to his normal eating.


3) And again, IMO Caleb is a walking, talking example of what some
refer to
as "starvation mode". For example, Caleb has just spent 10 or so
days, at
1000 cals or less, at 203 lbs. Unless one assumes he is just eating
more
than he knows, the metabolic effect is undeniable. Caleb's answer?
Starve
himself more to break this "plateau", by eating what, 200 calories?


Seriously, I wish Caleb the best of luck, and hope he somehow comes to
find
a way of maintaining his weight loss.


I know he will not listen to criticism of his approach, and the
suggestions
some have made to help him. That doesn't mean, however, that the
errors he
makes shouldn't be pointed out at times, to help others avoid the
same
mistakes."


Well, obviously, as he reappears year after year after year after
year, he hasn't learned a thing since 2002 and before.

Go ahead and do some searching, it will answer all your questions.


Gosh, I am so glad nobody gave up on me because of all the times I tried to
do things my way. Or on certain family members who went to 12 step
meetings for "support" but really didn't follow the program. All of us seem
to have stumbled and bumbled our way to truths that we were blind
to--sometimes by choice--in the past. If I were to be judged only by my
past choices, I would never be free to be the person I am becoming today.
2002 was 5 years ago--I'm talking to him today.


  #56  
Old February 5th, 2007, 02:57 AM posted to alt.support.diet
Caleb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 434
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie

On Feb 4, 5:26 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"The Queen of Cans and Jars" wrote in messagenews:1ht0swr.1rbq7wg2vjgl0N%dhrravr@ohatzha pu.bet...

teachrmama wrote:


I'm just not clear on why you think that gives you the right to tell me I
shouldn't talk to him either.


Talk to him all you want - in the group that he set up for talking about
it. Is it really all that hard to understand?


Actually, yes it is. Why shouldn't we be free to talk here? There are
certainly some extremely obnoxious threads here right now that haven't been
jumped on the way this rather innocuous thread has been.


Gee, Teachrmama -- Don't you know you should ignore the people behind
the curtain? Maybe they'll make sense! We can't have that!

Just kidding, of course. And I agree with you that at most my thread
is innocuous, and not obnoxious, vituperative, etc. Also, I think I'm
reasonably polite. Also, I rarely swear at people (at rarely when I'm
not watching our politicians).

"The Queen" certainly seems very patronizing with her statement:"Is it
really all that hard to understand?" (I would imagine The Queen is
female.) She decrees -- You obey! You probably didn't know you had to
agree to such restrictions when you joined this group. Matter of fact
-- neither did (or should) anybody else.

I wonder what this group would look like if there were restrictions to
the effect that if someone posted on another group, he/she could not
post to this group. Hmmm... Like a ghost town.

Yours truly,

Caleb
Caleb

  #57  
Old February 5th, 2007, 03:06 AM posted to alt.support.diet
Caleb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 434
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie

On Feb 4, 5:04 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Caleb" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Feb 4, 10:49 am, "teachrmama" wrote:
"determined" wrote in message


m...


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


"LFM" wrote in message
news


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


Teachrmama - if you are truely interested in a dialog with this
poster,
please take it to Alt.support.diet.low-calorie You will find very
little support of this poster in here


Actually, there are topics here that I do not enter opinions on
because
they are of no interest to me. It is easy to just skip over them. I
understand that you feel great disdain for this poster, but you are
not
required to read his posts, or any conversations that he is in. I
always
respond respectfully to other posters, and do not feel that my
conversation with Caleb is violating any of this newsgroup's rules and
regulations. If you were standing behind me in the grocery store and
I
were carrying on a conversation with Caleb, would you ask that we go
to
McDonald's and discuss things, rather than conversing in a public
place
you just happened to be in? With all due respect, that is how I feel
you
are speaking to me here.


You know what? Caleb is nothing more than a troll... The fact that
you
want to maintain a dialogue with a troll kind of hurts your own
credibility. It doesn't take a whole lot of knowledge of diet/health to
know that his approach is not healthy or effective at permanent weight
loss. If you can't figure that out for yourself, fine. But it leaves
the
rest of us here who have seen him go through this countless times
absolutely flabbergasted and exasperated.


I agree with you that losing weight and regaining it is not a good way to
maintain a healthy weight or lifestyle. I certainly have no intentions
of
following such a plan. I have come too far in my own efforts to want to
try
a plan that is not a total change to a new way of eating. But I am
curious
as to Caleb's reasons for the choices he is making, and how he came to
make
the choices he has. Maybe he comes back here repeatedly because he is
learning new approaches each time he comes. I see him as very polite--I
haven't seen him trying to force his choices on anyone else. I do hope
that
he will realize that if he continues with the healthy eating choices he
makes in the 100 days, he will be healthier than if he regains and
reloses
the same weight time after time. But having polite conversations with
him
does not mean that I am espousing his choices, and I am not certain why
it
riles up some of the regular posters here. I find that odd.


Teachrmama -- I endorse totally what you are saying. I do not want to
regain the weight and I sure hope I don't. But I am learning new
techniques each time I try this. Rather like stepping into the same
stream twice -- things change.


Good. I'm glad to hear that. For me, I have found that extremely low
calorie approaches lead only to overindulgence when I do begin to eat
"normally" again. So the approach I have chosen is to eat the way I want
to eat for the rest of my life, and to exercise the way I want to exercise
for the rest of my life. Then I never have to go "off a diet." I'm set.
And can make minor adjustments here and there as needed. I do hope you have
chosen an approach this time that will become a lifestyle rather than just a
diet. =c)


Teachrmama -- For me motivation is a major concern, and for
that.reason, a more rapid weight loss helps motivate me and keep my
behaviors focused on the goal. I agree with an extremely low calorie
approach being difficult to maintain, and also being artificial. I
have never lost weight any other way, however, other than fairly
rapidly. I prefer this "fire and forget" approach to weight loss.
("Fire and forget" missles are those that our air force can just fire
at the target and then ignore. That is, they don't have to be guided
in to the target. with a low-enough caloric intake, one is relatively
sure of losing weight without worrying about the odd-hundred calories.
People's caloric intake oftentimes varies very, very greatly from one
day to the next -- as mine has -- and asking them to shave a hundred
or two hundred calories off -- as some people do -- presupposed they
are on top of their calorie intake to begin with.)

Anyway, my physician will be very happy when I see her in the next
months, and she and my wife are the most important judges about this
stuff.

Yours truly,

Caleb

Whatever works for people. (That's why there are different colored
shoes, hats, cars, etc.)

  #58  
Old February 5th, 2007, 03:17 AM posted to alt.support.diet
Caleb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 434
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie

On Feb 4, 5:18 pm, Chris Braun wrote:
On 4 Feb 2007 16:35:36 -0800, "Caleb" wrote:

But there are many, many roads to Rome and the one you took worked
for. Great again about your success! But you cannot declare by fiat
that no other methods work. (Or you can, but it is nonsensical to do
so.)


I didn't say anything about your method -- other than the quitting
after 100 days and regaining part. That is obviously not effective. I
also lost weight through a calorie-limiting approach. For me, a less
restrictive calorie level seemed likely to be more sustainable over
the long run, and practice seems to be bearing that out. However, some
people have been very successful with medically-supervised very-low
calorie diets. All those plans, though, include an approach to
gradually ramp up to a more normal maintenance level and recognize the
need for a permanent change in one's eating habits. That's the part
of your approach that I feel justified in saying will not work -- the
quitting after 100 days part. And your experience supports my view.

Life is complicated for everyone - there will never be any more
Renaissance people, people who know everything there is to know. But
we compartmentalize our ignorance somewhat. (Okay, my computer works -
it's magic. These little electrons go zapping around and words appear,
etc. I drive over bridges but don't know exactly how the bridges are
built, how they're tested for stress, etc.) If I can find techniques
that help me do the things - especially the important things -- I want
to do, then I am happy with that. And I am happy with some of the
simple techniques and insights that have come my way.


I'm curious to know what insights those are. Is there something that
has improved over the years in the way you're doing this? That hasn't
been apparent to me, I guess. It seems like you do just the same
thing each year.

Our stance should be one of support rather than vitriol, humility
rather than arrogance. There are too many cock-sure people in the
world who have little reason to be that way. Let's let a thousand
flowers bloom!


I find it hard to believe that you perceived my posting as vitriolic
or arrogant.

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004


Chris - I don't think your approach specifically has been vitriolic
and I hope I didn't state that your words were that, but certainly
some of those on this Usenet group have been that way.

And I do think that I have been quite successful in losing weight in a
systematic fashion. I have done so repeatedly. The same general things
I do can be done by anyone, although I think peole should check with
medical personnel about the specifics of the application. (e.g., 1200
calories or another caloric approach. I'd imagine you would recommend
that people check with their PCPs as well.)

Seems to me that in a somewhat trivial way it's like the stem-cell
research, just to give people a hope that there are successful methods
out there. For a lot of people, that belief is very important.

Yours,

Caleb


  #59  
Old February 5th, 2007, 03:35 AM posted to alt.support.diet
LFM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 199
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...


I don't doubt that you have a darn good reason for your choices. I'm just
not clear on why you think that gives you the right to tell me I shouldn't
talk to him either. THAT's the part that I find odd.


I didn't say you couldn't/shouldn't talk to him - I suggested to you that if
you wish to continue the dialog with him that you take it to the appropriate
newsgroup that he setup for his plan, out of respect to the rest of this
group.


  #60  
Old February 5th, 2007, 03:42 AM posted to alt.support.diet
LFM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 199
Default Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"The Queen of Cans and Jars" wrote in message
. ..
teachrmama wrote:

I'm just not clear on why you think that gives you the right to tell me
I
shouldn't talk to him either.


Talk to him all you want - in the group that he set up for talking about
it. Is it really all that hard to understand?


Actually, yes it is. Why shouldn't we be free to talk here? There are
certainly some extremely obnoxious threads here right now that haven't
been jumped on the way this rather innocuous thread has been.


Caleb posts are considered trolling and off topid to ASD. Therefore if you
want to continue with an off topic dialog with a troll, then do not be
surprised with others chose to classify you in the same category as they do
him, and kill file you, ignore you and lose respect in you. Your
credibility is at risk by continuing your dialog with him in this forum.



 




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