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#71
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Response = proof
"Dunne E. Dawe" wrote in message ... On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:50:47 -0400, "Gymmy Bob" posted: So you don't know either? Know what? Please be specific. What exactly are you having difficulty with? It seems simple to me, but then I often leave out obvious steps in my explanations, and unless you assume these, you won't follow. "Dunne E. Dawe" wrote in message .. . On 21 Oct 2004 07:36:56 -0700, (tcomeau) posted: Dunne E. Dawe wrote in message ... On 19 Oct 2004 09:59:56 -0700, (tcomeau) posted: This calorie thing. By what mechanism does the body recognize an excess of calories and by what mechanism does the body then trigger fat storage. Through evolution, energy containing foods are conserved by the body for later use, and stored as the most energy concentrated molecule, fat. Excess energy-containing molecules are detected by their presence when all energy requirements are satisfied. How are excess energy-containing molecules detected, exactly? By molecular concentration, and enzymes ready to convert them to storage molecules. The law of mass action. Elementary chemistry. What exactly happens when all energy requirements are satisfied? The high energy molecules build up in concentration and are then converted to molecules suitable for storage. These go into lipocytes when in high enough concentration. I want to know the metabolic pathways, the hormonal signals, or whatever precise biological mechanism that detects the bodies energy status and responds by triggering fat storage or use. Concentrations of the molecules concerned. Try a simple biochem text. The body doesn't "measure" the energy content. It has just evolved to convert excess high energy molecules into fats and then store them in lipocytes. The actual energy balance always balances when we calculate the energies concerned. You aren't answering the question. You are generalising. I want the specifics. You don't need to write it all out, just point me to a url or another reference source that specifically lays it all out in detail. I've told you. Any first year biochem text. Fats are made by various chemical pathways (glucose to fat in the liver, for instance) and this excess fatty acid is stored in specialised tissues in various parts of the body. No ****. What is it about calories that triggers the fat storage? It's fatty acid concentration that "triggers" fat storage. What do calories have to do with it? Calories are merely a measure of the energy contained in the chemical bonds of these molecules. This energy can be utilised for many of the body's energy reqiuiring activities -- muscular activity and the like. Conversely, by what specific mechanism does the body detect a dietary calorie deficit and by what mechanism does it then trigger fat burning. Fat is burned every minute of every day by the body. Stored energy is mobilised whenever there is s need for energy by the body that is not met by the liver's store, or circulating energetic molecules. You keep explaining it in very general terms. I want to know the specifics. How specifically does the body recognize that its energy requirements are not being met by the liver's store, or circulating energetic molecules? Concentrfations. You seem to be having some basic conceptual difficulties. By osmosis? This aids some molecules to pass certain barriers to free diffusion. By fluke? No, when the concentration on one side of a chemical reaction is high, the reaction moves to the other side. You have studied a little basic chemistry, I hope. By chaos theory? By ESP? Yet more lack of understanding? And you have had it explained before? I'm beginning to wonder about your motives. By hormonal response? Hormones will be involved in facilitating some reaction pathways. By sensory cells? Yes, these can sometimes permit some chemical transactions to go ahead (feedback loops). Can't think of any particular examples at the present time. By receptor molecules? Not sure what you mean here. By broadband antennae? Huh? Are you trying to be dense? You seem to be succeeding. What are the specific bio-chemical steps in both processes? I suggest you consult an elementary biochemical textbook to learn all about lipogenesis and lipolysis and other energy storing and mobilising pathways. They are quite straightforward and very well understood. Can you point me to one that explains how calories and specific quantitative caloric intake relate directly to lipogenesis and/or lipolysis. I've said several times, any elementary biochem text. As I've tried to explain, molecular concentrations drive reactions. The molecular species determines exactly how much energy is contained within the bonds of that molecule. And more importantly how exactly is the body bio-chemically aware of its caloric deficit or excess and how exactly does it bio-chemically trigger lipogenesis and/or lipolysis. You seem to have a misconception of just what energy is. Energy is needed by the body to carry out many of its functions. It all originally comes from the Sun. Every molecule has a certain energy associated with its chemical bonds. When you break a bond, an exact amount of energy is transacted. Similarly when you create a bond. The body does not "measure" energy, it "measures" molecular concentrations. I've read quite a number of elementary biochemical textbooks and quite a few not so elementary and I've yet to see any clear, concise explanation of the direct and specific connection between caloric intake and the triggering of lipogenesis and/or lipolysis. Perhaps you have missed it because of this confusionn of what energy is. Get that straight, and I think you might be OK. By the way, I was looking in the archives, and see that all this has been fully explained to you at least several times previously. Why do you keep bringing it up? What are your motives here? You guys keep giving me the kind of general non-answers that you just BS'ed your way thru just now. Or you keep having problems understanding plain English. I've seen some folks have actually pointed you to specific references for all of this. I've yet to see a biochem text that does not deal with this topic. It is basic. It is obvious that if we accept the caloric theory of weight gain and loss, then the body has to have a way to recognize a state of either excess energy or a state of energy deficit. See above. You have quite a problem there. Get your enegy concept right and you should be well on the way. And then the body must take the excess energy and store it or conversely, when the body is in an energy deficit state, it must start using up fat. Stop thinking of energy and think of particular molecules. Then you can look them up to see how many calories they have available when converted to something else. You just repeated the above using a little bit of scientific terminology. Yes, you had better get used to some scientific terminology. It makes understandig so much easier. Try writing down some simple definitions and refer to them as you go. That is all that you have done. That is the only response, to this question, that I've seen in this ng. I keep asking the question and keep getting the same non-answers. As I said. Leave the energy out for now, and just think of molecules. You can introduce the energy later when you are not so confused. What I asked for was not just a rote repetition of what must be obvious vis-a-vis the calorie theory. What I asked for was a detailed scientific explanation of the bio-chemical processes that does all of this. I've told you. basically it is detection of molecular concentration via simple chemical principles. The metabolic pathways, the hormonal cascades, cells, molecules, etc. Not just what the body "must" do vis-a-vis calories, but the actual facts about what it does, and much more importantly, *specifically how* it does it. Far too complex to go into here, but all texts I've seen deal with it well. What is the specific bio-chemical mechanism that detects the bodies energy status at any given time? Molecular concentration. The body can't actually measure the energy content of a molecule, it can only do what it is programmed to do with various molecules. When it "needs" energy, it does things with particular molecules that just happen to contain a lot of energy. How does it detect the status, specifically? Molecular concentration. Gee, you ask this question a lot. I sense your frustration. Once the energy status is determined, how exactly does this specific bio-chemical energy detection bio-mechanism then specifically trigger lipogenesis and/or lipolysis. See above. The questions are so simple and fundamental, yet they have yet to be answered. No, the answers given have yet to be understtood by you, I'm afraid |
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On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 11:13:06 -0400, "Gymmy Bob"
posted: Response = proof Sorry, I don't know what this means, and I don't see the relevance to the subject at hand. Are you trying to make a valid comment? Or ask a valid question? |
#74
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Dunne E. Dawe wrote: On 19 Oct 2004 09:59:56 -0700, (tcomeau) posted: This calorie thing. By what mechanism does the body recognize an excess of calories and by what mechanism does the body then trigger fat storage. Through evolution, energy containing foods are conserved by the body for later use, and stored as the most energy concentrated molecule, fat. Excess energy-containing molecules are detected by their presence when all energy requirements are satisfied. Fats are made by various chemical pathways (glucose to fat in the liver, for instance) and this excess fatty acid is stored in specialised tissues in various parts of the body. Conversely, by what specific mechanism does the body detect a dietary calorie deficit and by what mechanism does it then trigger fat burning. Fat is burned every minute of every day by the body. Stored energy is mobilised whenever there is s need for energy by the body that is not met by the liver's store, or circulating energetic molecules. What are the specific bio-chemical steps in both processes? I suggest you consult an elementary biochemical textbook to learn all about lipogenesis and lipolysis and other energy storing and mobilising pathways. They are quite straightforward and very well understood. By the way, I was looking in the archives, and see that all this has been fully explained to you at least several times previously. Why do you keep bringing it up? What are your motives here? TC "Jerry G." wrote in message ... I have read many articles about eating like a Mediterranean. Apparently it works for many people. But, there is also the activity. If you look at some of the life styles of these people, many of them are hard working. They are either fisherman, doing manual labour, or working in the fields. Calories are a form of energy. The energy that we do not use, is stored as fat. There is the simple physics that shows that the calories out must be the same as the calories going in, if the person is not to change in weight. To loose weight, the calories going out must be greater than the calories going in. I like these people who tell me that they don't eat anything... For the average person, who is not particularly active, a defecate of 3500 calories over a given period of time, will result in a loss of 1 lbs. If someone was having a deficit of 1000 calories per week, after 3.5 weeks, they should loose 1 lbs. In a descent weight loss plan you would want to have a weight loss of at least 3 to 4 lbs per month. Too rapid a weight loss it not very easy on the system, and can result in the person going on eating binges and gaining it back again. The general key to descent weight control is to follow a low fat diet, and participate in a lot of exercise. Being very physically active is a big plus to loose and control weight. A moderate amount of exercise also helps to control blood pressure. Following a diet that consists of the proper portions of food, is well balanced, and is low on fat is the key. The diet should be consistent. Ideally the total fat intake should not exceed about 60 to 80 grams. The average person eats over 150 grams of fat per day. Each 5 grams of fat is about 1 tsp, or about 45 calories. Foods such as butter, or margarine are about 98% fat. Cutting out butter, all fried foods, and only eating lean meats with a lot of assorted vegetables, will help out to loose weight. An average portion of meat should be about 4 to 6 oz, not including the bone in the cut. When eating a salad, use low fat dressings. You can use some oil and vinegar with your favourite spices, but care should be taken when eating foods with oil. This will add up to the total fat. Stay away from foods that have trans-fats, or hydrogenated fats. These are the worse for blocking up the arteries. Most candies, cookies, and fast preparation foods have bad fats. A proper diet, with a lot of exercise is what will keep someone in good health. -- Jerry G. ========================== "Roman Bystrianyk" wrote in message e.com... http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.p...st_item&id=264 Liz Szabo,, "We should all eat like a Mediterranean", USA Today, September 22, 2004, Link: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...ean-usat_x.htm Two new studies confirm the health benefits of eating the Mediterranean way. In a study in today's Journal of the American Medical Association, mortality rates were 65% lower among elderly people who combined a so-called Mediterranean diet with 30 minutes of daily exercise, moderate drinking and no tobacco use. Although experts say there is no single Mediterranean diet, doctors say cuisines from these regions favor olive oil rather than butter and include lots of legumes, nuts, seeds, grains, fish, vegetables and potatoes but little meat and dairy. The study was conducted from 1988 to 2000 and led by researchers at Wageningen University in the Netherlands and other European universities. More than 2,300 healthy people ages 70 to 90 answered questions about their eating habits and activities. Researchers noted that the study suggests a strong association between healthy habits and longer life but offers no proof. In a separate study in the same journal, researchers from the Second University of Naples in Italy found that Mediterranean-style diets helped patients with "metabolic syndrome," which increases the risk of heart disease and diabetes and affects 1 in 4 American adults. People with the syndrome are fat around the middle, have high blood pressure and cholesterol deposits in their arteries, and do not properly process glucose. After two years, 44% of those on the Mediterranean diet still had features of metabolic syndrome, compared with 86% of others. This research confirms the results of earlier studies, experts say. A previous study of heart-attack survivors showed that the mortality rate was 70% lower among those who followed a prescribed Mediterranean diet compared with people on a low-fat diet. "The Mediterranean experience makes it clear that healthy eating is completely consistent with wonderful eating," says Walter Willett, chairman of nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health. Yet getting more Americans to adopt healthy living will be a challenge, says Dario Giugliano, an author of the metabolic syndrome study. Experts say only 1 in 5 Americans eat the recommended five to nine servings of fruits and vegetables a day. |
#75
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tcomeau wrote: This calorie thing. By what mechanism does the body recognize an excess of calories and by what mechanism does the body then trigger fat storage. Conversely, by what specific mechanism does the body detect a dietary calorie deficit and by what mechanism does it then trigger fat burning. What are the specific bio-chemical steps in both processes? TC "Jerry G." wrote in message ... I have read many articles about eating like a Mediterranean. Apparently it works for many people. But, there is also the activity. If you look at some of the life styles of these people, many of them are hard working. They are either fisherman, doing manual labour, or working in the fields. Calories are a form of energy. The energy that we do not use, is stored as fat. There is the simple physics that shows that the calories out must be the same as the calories going in, if the person is not to change in weight. To loose weight, the calories going out must be greater than the calories going in. I like these people who tell me that they don't eat anything... For the average person, who is not particularly active, a defecate of 3500 calories over a given period of time, will result in a loss of 1 lbs. If someone was having a deficit of 1000 calories per week, after 3.5 weeks, they should loose 1 lbs. In a descent weight loss plan you would want to have a weight loss of at least 3 to 4 lbs per month. Too rapid a weight loss it not very easy on the system, and can result in the person going on eating binges and gaining it back again. The general key to descent weight control is to follow a low fat diet, and participate in a lot of exercise. Being very physically active is a big plus to loose and control weight. A moderate amount of exercise also helps to control blood pressure. Following a diet that consists of the proper portions of food, is well balanced, and is low on fat is the key. The diet should be consistent. Ideally the total fat intake should not exceed about 60 to 80 grams. The average person eats over 150 grams of fat per day. Each 5 grams of fat is about 1 tsp, or about 45 calories. Foods such as butter, or margarine are about 98% fat. Cutting out butter, all fried foods, and only eating lean meats with a lot of assorted vegetables, will help out to loose weight. An average portion of meat should be about 4 to 6 oz, not including the bone in the cut. When eating a salad, use low fat dressings. You can use some oil and vinegar with your favourite spices, but care should be taken when eating foods with oil. This will add up to the total fat. Stay away from foods that have trans-fats, or hydrogenated fats. These are the worse for blocking up the arteries. Most candies, cookies, and fast preparation foods have bad fats. A proper diet, with a lot of exercise is what will keep someone in good health. -- Jerry G. ========================== "Roman Bystrianyk" wrote in message .com... http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.p...st_item&id=264 Liz Szabo,, "We should all eat like a Mediterranean", USA Today, September 22, 2004, Link: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...ean-usat_x.htm Two new studies confirm the health benefits of eating the Mediterranean way. In a study in today's Journal of the American Medical Association, mortality rates were 65% lower among elderly people who combined a so-called Mediterranean diet with 30 minutes of daily exercise, moderate drinking and no tobacco use. Although experts say there is no single Mediterranean diet, doctors say cuisines from these regions favor olive oil rather than butter and include lots of legumes, nuts, seeds, grains, fish, vegetables and potatoes but little meat and dairy. The study was conducted from 1988 to 2000 and led by researchers at Wageningen University in the Netherlands and other European universities. More than 2,300 healthy people ages 70 to 90 answered questions about their eating habits and activities. Researchers noted that the study suggests a strong association between healthy habits and longer life but offers no proof. In a separate study in the same journal, researchers from the Second University of Naples in Italy found that Mediterranean-style diets helped patients with "metabolic syndrome," which increases the risk of heart disease and diabetes and affects 1 in 4 American adults. People with the syndrome are fat around the middle, have high blood pressure and cholesterol deposits in their arteries, and do not properly process glucose. After two years, 44% of those on the Mediterranean diet still had features of metabolic syndrome, compared with 86% of others. This research confirms the results of earlier studies, experts say. A previous study of heart-attack survivors showed that the mortality rate was 70% lower among those who followed a prescribed Mediterranean diet compared with people on a low-fat diet. "The Mediterranean experience makes it clear that healthy eating is completely consistent with wonderful eating," says Walter Willett, chairman of nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health. Yet getting more Americans to adopt healthy living will be a challenge, says Dario Giugliano, an author of the metabolic syndrome study. Experts say only 1 in 5 Americans eat the recommended five to nine servings of fruits and vegetables a day. |
#76
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Dunne E. Dawe wrote: On 19 Oct 2004 09:59:56 -0700, (tcomeau) posted: This calorie thing. By what mechanism does the body recognize an excess of calories and by what mechanism does the body then trigger fat storage. Excess energy-containing molecules are detected by their presence when all energy requirements are satisfied. In the context of the question, I disagree with this part of your answer. The body doesn't directly "recognize" an excess of calories to "trigger" fat storage. After a meal, most of the fat in the meal is carried in chylomicrons to fat cells, where the triglyceride is separated from the chylomicron and stored in the fat cell. This is a response to the presence of chylomicrons in the blood, rather than to an "excess of calories." Later, as blood glucose levels drop, fat cells release fatty acids in response to increased glucogon levels. So, _net_ fat storage is a consequence of a positive energy imbalance, but almost all dietary fat is initially stored in fat cells following a meal. -Jay |
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:43:42 -0700, Jay Tanzman
posted: Dunne E. Dawe wrote: On 19 Oct 2004 09:59:56 -0700, (tcomeau) posted: This calorie thing. By what mechanism does the body recognize an excess of calories and by what mechanism does the body then trigger fat storage. Excess energy-containing molecules are detected by their presence when all energy requirements are satisfied. In the context of the question, I disagree with this part of your answer. The body doesn't directly "recognize" an excess of calories to "trigger" fat storage. That's what I was trying to say. The body detects an excess of this or that molecular species. The energy content in calories is our assessment of the situation. The body just does what it is programmed to with each particular species. After a meal, most of the fat in the meal is carried in chylomicrons to fat cells, where the triglyceride is separated from the chylomicron and stored in the fat cell. This is a response to the presence of chylomicrons in the blood, rather than to an "excess of calories." Yes, the chylomicron can be regarded as a big molecular specie. Later, as blood glucose levels drop, fat cells release fatty acids in response to increased glucogon levels. And this glucagon is triggered by the dearth of glucose molecules (or, from an energy chemists point of view, energy) So, _net_ fat storage is a consequence of a positive energy imbalance, but almost all dietary fat is initially stored in fat cells following a meal. But is burned into energy every day in the vast majority of folk. My point was that the body doesn't detect energy content, per se, just molecular species and their greater or lesser abundance in the circulation. |
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On 23 Sep 2004 12:04:37 -0700, (Chet Hayes)
wrote: Bob in CT wrote in message ... On 23 Sep 2004 06:51:40 -0700, Chet Hayes wrote: Kevin Stevens wrote in message ... In article , (Roman Bystrianyk) wrote: In a study in today's Journal of the American Medical Association, mortality rates were 65% lower among elderly people who combined a so-called Mediterranean diet with 30 minutes of daily exercise, moderate drinking and no tobacco use. What a useless freaking study! How much lower was the mortality rate among elderly people who combined ANY diet plan or WOE with 30 minutes of daily exercise, moderate drinking, and no tobacco use?! Don't like your initial results? Keep adding factor elements until you see a number you like. Ridiculous. KeS I wouldn't blast the study based on short excerpts from news organizations. The news usually goes for the simple, easy, overall message. If you look at the actual study, it was done to determine the effects of the diet, excercise, moderate drinking, no smoking, both together and seperately. It appears to be well designed and covered a 10 year period. There were benefits to all components, the combined effect was just the best result. But without data like true mortality (not the BS "relational" mortality), the study is useless. And did you read the actual study to see what data was recorded and reported before coming to the conclusion that the study was useless? It's like the study that gave two drugs to two different groups of people. The average LDL level dropped farther with one drug, and the relative number of deaths due to heart disease also dropped farther with that drug. The authors said that this "proved" that lowering LDL was beneficial, when that's not what the study proved at all. And what does drawing incorrect inferences have to do with this? In this example, you're right, the data doesn't show that the lowering of LDL was the mechanism, only that the drug reduced the incidence of heart disease. That would certainly be jumping to conclusions. What evidence do you have that this was done with the current study? (What it indicated was that if you took one drug and not another your relative risk of heart disease was lower.) Without access to the real data, none of us know what the results of this study are. OK, but without access how do you know it's useless based on a news report excerpt? He doesn't know ****. He doesn't like it because he didn't write it. What a loser. Fred |
#79
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Oxidative stress and the inflammatory process drive hunger in most
people who are "obese." I eat large amounts of sugar and saturated fatty acids, and yet am thin as a rail. All my friends and relatives are overweight or obese and the only difference is that they eat "red meat" (high in iron, etc.) and plenty of polyunsaturated fatty acids. These fatty acids cause oxidative stress and depress metabolism, so you get fatter and hungrier at the same time. Do not think that eating large amounts of canola oil and fat-free dairy is consistent with the Med Diet. These are new products that will do serious damage to your body, particularly the fats/oils that are very low in saturated fatty acids. When you see reports that say "saturated fat" is to blame for all kinds of problems, it is really the combination of iron and a high polyunsaturated fatty acid diet. Remember, lard is only about 39% saturated, which is why it is used in antioxidant experiments, whereas coconut oil, which is about 92% saturated, cannot be used, because the saturated fatty acids don't allow it to go rancid quickly. The rancidity causes oxidative stress in your body it is is described in the literature as "lipid peroxidation." This does not occur if your body is packed with saturated fatty acids. Stay away from dairy products with carrageenan listed as an ingredient, and be sure to buy fresh foods that contain cholesterol, but if you cook them, do not expose them to air - boiling is best. This will help you avoid stressing your body to the point of "chronic disease." |
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