Oh, brother (I roll my eyes)

Jonathan Ball wrote:
Another thing about Lesley, aka pearl: she likes to use a vegan
motorcyclist (veganmc below) site as a source.

That's from this same nutcase John Coleman who's been posting here
recently.

That explains a lot then, lol.

....

But mostly those carbs are enclosed within a tough cellulose wall.
And plant protein is thus also unavailable to putrefactive bacteria..


...

http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/protein.htm



She's not a scientist, she's a crackpot.

As is Coleman.

Something I omitted to address earlier;

"Jim Carver" wrote in message
om...
..
It should be noted, though, that I really wish this author would have
been a little more specific on the food ratios involved, but lets just
make some quick assessments to the approx. diet ratios he provided and
assume an approx. 30/55/15 ratio. This means that 30% of the
individuals diet is coming from protein sources, 55% is coming from
carbohydrate sources, and about 15% from fat. No to bad balancing...

'Diets in rural China were low in fat (14.5% of energy), relatively
low in protein (65.8 g/day), and high in fiber (33 g/day), representing
a diet unusually rich in plant based foods (e.g., including about 90%
of the total protein).'
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...sis_paper.html

65.8 grams of protein a day can't be 30% of a plant-based diet.

'While Doctor Gislasons 12% of calories figure is reflective of some
current mainstream opinion, it is not supported by this analysis
(6% is closer to requirements), and it is not supported by orthodox
nutritional standards either, for example the National Research
Council says an adult male requires 2700 calories and 56 grams
of protein per day. The 56 grams of protein represent 224 calories,
or about 8.3% of calories as protein. '

http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/protein.htm (not found)
see; http://web.archive.org/web/200304180...mc/protein.htm
( http://tinyurl.com/38uum )

..

(Jim Carver) wrote in message . com...
Hello again Rubystars!

So since caffeine is a stimulant, I'm wondering if drinking diet cokes is
helping me to lose weight (at least a little). I drink a couple of them
every day (used to be regular cokes, and more than a couple, so I switched
over to diet to keep from consuming all those extra calories). I know it's
helping as far as reducing the calorie intake but I was wondering if the
caffeine part was helping.

I thought this question would be coming. This was reason I put in the
NOTE statement in the last posting about noting that all stimulants
are not the same.... :-)

To answer your question. Unfortunately, no... Caffeine, by itself,
does not provide much of an elevated metabolic rate increase, but is
OK as an appetite suppression substance. To be effective, though,
about 100mg (ie A large cup of coffee) is required. With your Diet
Coke approach, you are only getting 31mg per 8oz serving.

Now, one thing that I got allot of, even from some doctors, is that
metabolic raising substances simply do not work. I find this very
comical in that metabolic enhancers was whole reason the amphetamine
class of stimulants were created. (ie. Remember the 70's when doctors
would just prescribe a "wonder pill" to solve any overweight
problems?)

"Jim Carver" is clueless as to the fact that amphetamines were
developed in Germany in the 1920 -30s several decades before anyone
had heard of "metabolic rate", much less the idea of enhancing it.
Their use in weight control began when it was noticed that they
suppress appetite, sort of.
When you are this ignorant about a subject, it means little when
something seems "comical" to you.

Amphetamines were so powerful, in fact, and addictive for
that matter, that the FDA decided that they were a little too risky
for most people to mess with... I certainly see and respect their
position on this matter... Just to note, I support the FDA on most of
their stances...

Just so that you can build some respect for some in the industry in
reference to metabolic enhancing products, the lets talk about the
most famous of them all, being the ECA stack.

(NOTE: Unfortunately, though, the Ephedra part of this stack was
banned by the FDA earlier this year, but you will see that knowing its
history will be helpful to you in looking at how the next generation
products work...)

What is an ECA stack, and how/why did it work?
======================================
The ECA stack as most people know it, actually stands for
Ephedra/Caffeine/Asprin. This blend was effectively brought to us by
the body building community in trying to develop ways for them to "cut
down" when preparing for competitions. No, not all body builders are
meat heads. Some are actually very intelligent! Did it work?? You
betcha it did... Very effective, and here is why..

I don't want to bring the whole "body enzyme" thing into the picture,
because I think it probably would just zone out most people, so I will
describe the process in a easiest manner possible. If you are looking
for a more textbook explanation of exact chemical releases and enzyme
blocking involved, let me know, and I can explain further. For now,
though, I will just keep it simple to understand...

Basically, Ephedrine (which is the active ingredient in Ephedra)
stimulates the autonomic nervous system in many ways. In fact,
ephedrine is one of main drugs asthma sufferers use everyday. When
you blend ephedrine with caffeine, though, the two mimic the effects
of true amphetamines, which as you know now are very powerful
stimulants. The thing to understand the most, though, is that when
adding these two stimulants together, there is an increased release of
a body chemical called "nor-ephinephrine". In addition, something
called the "beta-2-androgenic receptors" in the body is stimulated.
OK other than those two techno jargon words, that isn't too bad is
it??... Now lets look at what the Aspirin is for??

Well, the aspirin side of the "ECA stack" has been and continues to be
a little controversial. Basically, aspirin was added to the stack
about 11 years ago and they were using it to block an additional body
enzyme to aid its "effectiveness", so to speak, of the overall
process. Once again, if you want a more technical description of why,
let me know. Primarily the reason most companies left Aspirin in was
due to the fact that it was noticed that it was very effective in
going at abdominal fat sections. Why, this is, no one really knew for
sure, but the speculation was that it was due to the fact that
thinning the blood helps get additional blood supply to abdominal fat
section area. I personally think this is a little "magic fluff" for
my tastes, but most body builders swear by it, and who am I to
disagree with the people that know it best?? :-)
======================================

OK. If Ephedra was effect, why was it banned by the FDA?
======================================
Several reasons. Some of which were political in nature. It seems
there is allot of bad blood between the FDA and the largest supplier
of ephedra for normal consumers being Metabolife. Historically over
the last decade, it seems that the FDA has a track record of not
liking the herbal market simply due to the fact that congress never
gave them much authority over it. If you don't like this, then I
would encourage you to contact your senator and congressmen and state
your opinion. This track record is clearly established, and certainly
goes against the intent of what congress was trying to do when then
pass a bill that essentially created the herbal market... Overall,
though, this is still a small reason to the overall pictu

Banning Reasons:
1) Ephedra was primarily banned because of abuse by people that would
simply use it only and not improve anything else on the nutritional
and diet side. Not smart, because an ECA stack is certainly too
strong a stimulant blend to use for people who are not used to working
out regularly in intense manners.

2) Because of the increased "metabolic rate", its use would hamper
your body's ability to regulate body temps. This is normally not an
issue, but if you are on high doses and then go out into 96F
weather, you can get into a heat stroke situation very rapidly. Even
more frustrating to medical professionals, was the fact that when a
person did develop a heat stroke condition and were admitted into the
emergency room, they were almost powerless to do much about it other
than put the person in a tub of ice and hope for the best. I
certainly can understand how frustrating this must have been...

3) Like most good solutions, as soon as one good product comes out, a
large number of imitation products also came on the market. They also
were making all sorts of bogus claims about their product trying to
get an "edge" on the competition. Funny thing was, though, they all
were working off the same principles and typically the same dosages...

Was Ephedra that dangerous??
======================================
No.. If used properly it was not.. Most knowledgeable fitness
professionals agree to this fact? Interestingly enough, the Chinese
has used it for over 4000 years with little to no problems. I must
admit that more than one of Chinese immigrant has chuckled at me in
discussing Ephedra... "Stupid Americans" as they say it.. :-)
======================================

What is industries "new product" now that Ephedra is gone?
======================================
As of now, the jury is still out on where we go from here. Some
companies just increased the caffeine amounts. No smart, as this just
give people the shakes and creates a mild case of paranoia at large
dosages of caffeine...

Some, have replaced Ephedra which its "sister" herb being Green Leaf
Extract. Even though so far Green Leaf Extract looks promising,
because of the higher dosage required, it has been noticed to show
some issues on liver function tests. (ie. Slight liver damage)
Not too nice to think about, but remember that the liver is the only
organ in the body that can regenerate itself..... That certainly is
no excuse to abuse it, though? That's just not nice!! :-)

Also, another herb called Bitter Orange Extract is now being tried to
replaced ephedra, but it also seems to have allot of the same issues
as Green Leaf...

Finally, I should bring up Ginseng as another option. When people
talk about ginseng, though, they are talking about energy enhancing?
Also there are several different forms of ginseng, but the Korean
Panax Ginseng is clearly the best from an energy standpoint.
======================================

OK. Should I try a metabolic enhancer right now?
======================================
Personally, I wouldn't. Not until we know a little more about how
everything will shake out in the industry. Let some of those "amateur
scientists", who I admit are a critical part of science in general,
play for a while until some sort of standard principle is agreed upon.

If you want to try being one of these "amateur scientists", though, I
say go for it!! This risk profile is not too bad? Below is a good
link if you are interested. Also, just to let you know, most body
builders swear by products from a company called Ergopharm, (ie. Go
Patrick A. Go!!? Sorry, inside joke?) so if you do decide to go this
route, you might want to try their metabolic enhancer product. I
think it is called ErgoLean MC, but I am not sure and I know nothing
more about it.

Additional Quality herbal link:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/goalherbal.htm
======================================

Jim Carver


======================================
"Rubystars" wrote in message . com...
"Jim Carver" wrote in message
snip explanation
Helpful?

Yes, thanks.

Got any addition questions on this subject or something
else?

So since caffeine is a stimulant, I'm wondering if drinking diet cokes is
helping me to lose weight (at least a little). I drink a couple of them
every day (used to be regular cokes, and more than a couple, so I switched
over to diet to keep from consuming all those extra calories). I know it's
helping as far as reducing the calorie intake but I was wondering if the
caffeine part was helping.

-Rubystars

"Jackie Patti" wrote in message
snip
You're ignoring the fact that the majority of our evolution occured
pre-agriculture, when the defacto diet for the human race was a low-carb
diet.

Wild foods include tubers and fruits that have a lot of carbs, as well as
many vegetables that have a lot of carbs. Hunter-gatherer societies should
more accurately be called gatherer-hunter societies, because the gatherers
actually bring home most of the food.

Agriculture has not existed long in evolutionary terms - we did
not evolve to eat hundreds and hundreds of grams of carb daily all year
round.

You're underestimating the carbs in wild foods.

-Rubystars

"Jackie Patti" wrote in message
...
Crafting Mom wrote:

Then you simply re-directed your discipline and exercised it where you
did
not before. You discovered where it would be more difficult to exercise
the discipline (e.g. no more candy) and said no, whereas before you had
said yes. What is so wrong with the idea that one lost weight by
exercising their (already existing) potential to use self-control?

Every day, you are aware that the ball is in your court and use it is a
day
you've exercised control.

Yes, but...

The amount of discipline required to control food intake with
uncontrolled blood sugar is such that I'd have to focus *tons* of energy
to do it. I'd not be able to be a productive worker, a good wife and
mother, nor get my butt to the gym regularly if I had to use up all that
psychic energy just to control food. Food would have to become my
life's obsession to control myself while suffering with uncontrolled
blood sugar.

Maybe you should talk to a doctor about it and see if they can't help you.
Maybe you need insulin shots?

If I *had* to choose between being slim and being completly
dysfunctional in every other area of my life, the only responsible and
mature decision would be obesity.

There is discipline required on low-carb, but a much lesser amount. I
can focus a reasonable amount of discipline to the subject of food and
still have plenty leftover for my other responsibilities and chores and
such.

Discipline is like love, there's not a limited amount. If you had 3 kids,
you wouldn't dote on two of them and tell the third one you just didn't have
any left over for him, and you were really sorry, and regretted it, but
that's just how it is, now would you? Think of your responsibilities like
children. They all need attention and discipline. Your own health should be
one of your most important priorities, if you do have to prioritize here. If
you're not healthy, how are you going to be a productive worker, a good
wife, and go to the gym? You're more important than you think you are.
Putting your health first before other concerns is not selfish. It helps you
to accomplish your other responsibilities better.

-Rubystars

Rubystars wrote:

Maybe you should talk to a doctor about it and see if they can't help you.
Maybe you need insulin shots?

Thank you for your concern. I am under a doctor's care.

The low-carb diet lowered my blood glucose tremendously. I'm currently
on metformin, which has lowered it a bit more. We will likely try
higher doses and/or other meds that specifically address insulin
resistance before trying insulin, though insulin is obviously a possibility.


Discipline is like love, there's not a limited amount. If you had 3 kids,
you wouldn't dote on two of them and tell the third one you just didn't have
any left over for him, and you were really sorry, and regretted it, but
that's just how it is, now would you?

I wouldn't have so many children that I could not care for them all. I
found it difficult to raise *one* by myself while balancing work and
school.

There *is* a limited amount... I have 24 hours in a day and a need for
sleep, meals, exercise, etc. You used the example of 3 children, which
may have been do-able with a partner. What about 30? 100? 500?

Of course it's limited... one person can only do so much.

If I must invest energy in willpower while in pain, I am not going to
have lots of energy leftover for much of anything.


Think of your responsibilities like
children. They all need attention and discipline. Your own health should be
one of your most important priorities, if you do have to prioritize here. If
you're not healthy, how are you going to be a productive worker, a good
wife, and go to the gym? You're more important than you think you are.
Putting your health first before other concerns is not selfish. It helps you
to accomplish your other responsibilities better.

I don't have to choose between my health and my other responsibilities
when low-carbing because I am not in pain from hunger.

I have the energy to handle all of my responsibilities fine when not
suffering from high blood glucose. That was my very point - that I
*can* do so with low carb.


--
As you accelerate your food, it takes exponentially more and more energy
to increase its velocity, until you hit a limit at C. This energy has
to come from somewhere; in this case, from the food's nutritional value.
Thus, the faster the food is, the worse it gets.
-- Mark Hughes, comprehending the taste of fast food

(Jim Carver) wrote in message . com...
Hello Doug!

Sorry for the long email in advance. I just wanted to provide
information for you just in case you might find it helpful...

I tried a vegetarian diet for a couple of months before starting low-cal. I
*gained* weight. It's easy to gain weight on a vegetarian diet - especially
a lacto-vegetarian diet.

This is great that you are trying a new diet! Especially a low-cal
vegetarian diet, which I would think would be exceptionally difficult
to stomach. It shows that you really trying!! Now, I don't really
know if you want the information, but there is a very easy explanation
as to why you gained weight. Let me explain...

What if I was to tell you that for most people, reducing their caloric
intake would have ZERO impact on them loosing weight?

I would tell you that calories are interchangeable within ones
metabolic system with virtually 100% efficiency. Nothing is wasted.
I would remind you that doing any sort of work or process in the
body requires fuel.
So, if someone chooses to do activities requiring (say) 4000
calories a day and eats only 3500 of these totally interchangeable
calories a day, 500 calories of some form of stored energy is going to
be consumed.
In your mind, that might co-exist with having "zero" impact on
weight gain/loss. For others, no.
There is no doubt that you have read a lot of popular nutrition.
Your problem is that you have no grounding in basic physiology.
Your readers need to know that.



Would you
believe me?? Probably not, but virtually every nutritionist would be
on my side. (OK, lets leave the doctors out of this one only because
I have found that about 60% of them don't have a clue about basic
nutrition)

For most people, including vegetarians, the real culprit to gaining
weight is not due to how many calories they eat, but rather the types
of foods that they eat, and how they eat them.

The real culprit is that certain eating patterns do a poor job of
suppressing hunger in porportion to the calories consumed. The
hunger-eating-not hungry anymore feed-back loop is deranged by too
much refined carbs.
That way of saying it would be more accurate and save even more
time.
But you are simply wrong to say that total calories do not matter.
Calories in excess of demand must be stored. There is no other place
for them to go.

To save time in this
forum, lets just get to the core of the matter. What makes most
people gain weight is due to what nutritionists call the "see saw
effect". Let me explain the process:

Why most people gain weight?
=======================================
A) You get hungry and eat something of high GI food. Mmmm... Candy
bar and Coke is yummy!!... :-)
http://www.gisymbol.com.au/PDF/BackgroundInfoGI.PDF

B) Next, in under 5 mins, this food that was ingested is immediately
absorbed into your blood stream which causes a massive spike in your
bodies blood glucose levels.

C) After about another 15 mins, your pancreas notices the rising blood
glucose levels, and releases a massive amount of insulin which is
required to allow the body to "use" this new found energy source.

D) Because your insulin levels rise so fast in the bloodstream, (ie.
More energy than the body needs), your fat cells start gobbling up all
the extra, and you would be amazed at how fast these little critters
can do this!!(ie. Normally in less than 45 mins)

E) Next, because of these seemingly "greedy little fat cells", blood
sugar levels drop rapidly leaving the rest of the body without much
energy left, making you feeling tired and sleepy... Nap time anyone??

F) Finally, because blood sugar levels dropped so low in such a short
period of time, your body does not know what is going on and goes into
"panic mode" thereby sending signals to the brain to make you hungry
again. (ie. This starts this vicious cycle all over again)
=======================================

Next Question: Why do we love high GI foods so much?
=======================================
To answer this question, one must appreciate how incredibly smart our
bodies are. In some instances, people will eat allot of high GI foods
just because they are the quickest/easiest foods to find or they do
not know any better. For many people, though, we seem to "crave" high
GI foods?

Have you ever wondered why when that "special someone" broke your
heart, or maybe that person driving in the car next to you made you
feel really stupid, why your instinctly go home and start eating that
big bowl of ice cream? Well, I promise you that you would be very
surprised by the answer!

In your brain there exists two master chemicals. The first is called
"dopamine". The other is called "serotonin". These two brain
chemicals influence most everything that we do. For the first being
dopamine, it is used for excitement and concentration. In fact, a
dopamine release is the whole reason why people drink their coffee in
the morning! Serotonin, on the other hand, is used for that overall
"feel good awareness", which most people call the "after glow"
chemical. Reduced levels in serotonin will cause depression, fatigue,
insomnia, etc.

Now, where am I going with this?? Well, when your body is influenced
by a period of onset depression, which for many people is
unfortunately an almost daily occurrence, your body attempts to
"treat" itself. Somehow, throughout time, our bodies have learned
that by ingesting large amounts of high GI foods, that it will raise
serotonin levels in the brain an make you feel better. (ie. Reduces
depression symptoms) As with most people that are "their own
doctors", even though your body has good intent overall, its reckless
behavior does more harm than good...
=======================================

OK. They what diet is GUARANTEED to Work?
=======================================
Because of the greedy nature of fat cells, any diet that limits
insulin releases to a minimum in the body will basically stop fat
storage all together. Think about it this way, if there is very
little amounts of insulin flowing through the body at any one given
time, your muscles will take up all of the glucose and leave your fat
cells empty handed!! Now, if only we could do this with governments
and politicians!! :-)

The way to do this is to always eat low GI foods and stay away from
high GI foods. Low GI foods are any food that requires the body to
work very hard (ie. Extract Glucose Slowly) to get its energy from.
Foods such as: Oatmeal, Kashi cereal, Skim milk, Brown Rice, 100%
Whole Wheat Breads, Broccoli, or any non-processed Beans are perfect
for keeping insulin levels low. Another side benefit is that by
keeping your insulin levels constant, your energy levels will go thru
the roof!!! Dont believe me?? Well, it is 12:43am and I got up this
morning at 4:30am and Im still going strong!! :-)

Another trick that you will find incredibly effective is what is
called "diet balancing". Basically this consists of balancing the
types of foods that you eat. For instance, my diet is just a typical
45/35/20. This means that I am ingesting about 45% of my foods from
protein, about 35% from low GI carbohydrates, and about 20% from fat.
By balancing your diet, you will be able to eat a considerable larger
amount of food with negligible fat gains. Does this mean that you
have to count every calorie you eat?? Certainly not, but it just
means that when you are eating a meal, to make sure you always have an
appropriate amount of protein/carbohydrates/fats on the plate before
you start eating!
=======================================

And Finally, Why do people always talk about exercise??
=======================================
As stated above, the human body is an amazing organism. In fact, have
you ever wondered why when you go on a diet you loose weight for about
3 to 5 weeks and then no matter how hard you try you cannot loose
anymore weight?? The answer is actually pretty intriguing.....

Whenever a person goes on a restricted caloric diet, the body at first
sarcomas to the pressure. (ie. It gives up fat). After a given time,
though, the body gets "wise" to what is going on and decides to take
action!! After about 3 to 5 weeks, (ie. It is different from person
to person), the body realizes that it must change a few things or it
will have to give up all of its fat, and I can promise you that it
does not want to do that without a fight!! To stability the situation
because of the reduced calorie diet, the body just chooses to reduce
it metabolic rate. (ie. You have less energy and cannot think as well
as before). By doing this, it allows the body to now function on this
reduced diet and keep the fat is so dearly loves!!

So where does fitness fall into this?? Well, by introducing exercise
into the picture, you effectively stop the body from going into a
reduced metabolic state. By doing this, you will continue to loose
weight throughout the duration of your weight loss diet cycle.

Another side benefit to exercise has to do with weight training. By
lifting heavy amounts of weights in the gym (ie. Think HEAVY weight
and not light weight as it will have very little effect), you
stimulate the body to build more muscle to lift this heavy load. In
turn, having this new muscle requires additional glucose to feed it.
The beauty of this is that by adding muscle, you can eat considerably
more and still loose weight. Dont believe me?? Well, most body
builders (Yes, I am talking about the ones that do NOT use steriods)
that have large amounts of muscle will eat 5000 calories a day....
For these guys, eating actually is a full time job!! :-)
=======================================

Now that you are equipped with all of the knowledge you need, go forth
Doug and ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS!!! (And also have some fun along the
way.... :-)

I hope this helps!

Jim Carver


Doug Lerner wrote in message ...
On 5/10/04 2:53 PM, in article er,
"Eva Whitley" wrote:

The morons at PETA have rolled out Veg Eye for the Fat Guy (he
http://goveg.com/feat/vegeye2/ ) targeting Ruben Studdard, Luciano
Pavarotti, Michael Moore, John Goodman, and John Madden.

Earth to PETA: it is possible to be fat and vegetarian. Don't they know
any fat guy vegetarians? I could introduce them to some...

I tried a vegetarian diet for a couple of months before starting low-cal. I
*gained* weight. It's easy to gain weight on a vegetarian diet - especially
a lacto-vegetarian diet.

Maybe it's harder to gain weight if you eliminate absolutely all animal
products including products that are derived from animals, like butter and
milk and cheese...

But if you include those it is easy to get and remain obese and be a
vegetarian.

doug

"Jonathan Ball" wrote in message
link.net...

Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment.
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html

"usual suspect" wrote in message ...

Extremely ignorant remarks, based on foolish, wilfully ignorant opinion.

"usual suspect" wrote in message news
pearl wrote:

Another thing about Lesley, aka pearl: she likes to use a vegan motorcyclist
(veganmc below) site as a source.

Ad hominem.