If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
"Ignoramus23305" wrote in message ... On 16 Aug 2005 10:08:24 -0700, Doug Freyburger wrote: Intuitive smoothing formulas work at least as well as formal ones. As long as the person looks at the trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and avoids freaking out, all is well. As long as enough data points are taken that a trend can be found, all is well. I don't want anyone to overreact and only weigh monthly on the principle that the time scale for loss is month to month. The water retention noise needs more data to resolve the monthly trend. Month to month data is not free of noise, either. Rational approach to life demands gathering relevant information and then analyzing it with an open mind, with the purpose of using it to further one's objectives. As such, daily scale readings are helpful if one realizes (as you mentioned) that weight is a sum of trend plus noise. Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable mistakes. If someone acts irrationally after seeing unexpected numbers on the scale, that's their problem (and a sign of other problem) and not, as such, any proof that daily weighings are not useful. The daily weighings aren't useful to *that* person which doesn't make *that* person wrong. I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This is why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix your head." People who have an emotional reaction to the scale can work around it. I know I have and it's working fine for me. Then again I actually admit that I *have* emotions and I enjoy life much more for it. Dealing with emotions is not easy which is why I suspect you just live in your little world of denial. I certainly prefer to have genuine human emotions (good and bad) that help me lead a full, balanced, healthy, fit, and passionate life than to be so emotionally suppressed that I can only use negative emotions to beat up people with claims of being either slim or plump depending on who I am trying to insult or manipulate. Losing weight may help you get a smaller ass but it doesn't make you less of one. -- the volleyballchick |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Nunya B. wrote:
Ignoramus23305 wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote: ... As long as the person looks at the trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and avoids freaking out, all is well. As long as enough data points are taken that a trend can be found, all is well. I don't want anyone to overreact and only weigh monthly on the principle that the time scale for loss is month to month. The water retention noise needs more data to resolve the monthly trend. Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable mistakes. If someone acts irrationally after seeing unexpected numbers on the scale, that's their problem (and a sign of other problem) and not, as such, any proof that daily weighings are not useful. The daily weighings aren't useful to *that* person which doesn't make *that* person wrong. I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This is why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix your head." People who have an emotional reaction to the scale can work around it. I know I have and it's working fine for me. Then again I actually admit that I *have* emotions and I enjoy life much more for it. The reason I urge newbies to avoid the scale is because so many newbies have emotional reactions to what the scale says today; they don't know about water retention bounce yet. Is it true of all newbies? No. Is it true of very many newbies? Yes. I have to go with the trend. And because context is everything I urge folks about to transition to maintenance to do daily weighings because they need to learn their own water bounce. Can all folks emotionally handle daily weighings at that point? No. Can most? Yes. No matter that there are exceptions to the trend, at that point knowing is important. When I urge newbies to avoid the scale for a while and only weigh weekly, there is a chorus from folks years into their own plan asserting that they do fine with daily weighings. Major context disconnect. So what that someone who's been weighing daily for years no longer has a problem with it. That's not the common newbie context. The conundrum is that the scale gives objective numbers that contain signal noise and new folks tend to look at scale readings emotionally rather than objectively. It takes reassurance and time to get past that conundrum. A small number never hit this conundrum (say someone who weighed daily for years before starting), some get past it quick, some get past it slow, some get emotional when stepping on the scale even a year after starting. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message oups.com... Nunya B. wrote: Ignoramus23305 wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote: ... As long as the person looks at the trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and avoids freaking out, all is well. As long as enough data points are taken that a trend can be found, all is well. I don't want anyone to overreact and only weigh monthly on the principle that the time scale for loss is month to month. The water retention noise needs more data to resolve the monthly trend. Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable mistakes. If someone acts irrationally after seeing unexpected numbers on the scale, that's their problem (and a sign of other problem) and not, as such, any proof that daily weighings are not useful. The daily weighings aren't useful to *that* person which doesn't make *that* person wrong. I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This is why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix your head." People who have an emotional reaction to the scale can work around it. I know I have and it's working fine for me. Then again I actually admit that I *have* emotions and I enjoy life much more for it. The reason I urge newbies to avoid the scale is because so many newbies have emotional reactions to what the scale says today; they don't know about water retention bounce yet. Is it true of all newbies? No. Is it true of very many newbies? Yes. I have to go with the trend. And because context is everything I urge folks about to transition to maintenance to do daily weighings because they need to learn their own water bounce. Can all folks emotionally handle daily weighings at that point? No. Can most? Yes. No matter that there are exceptions to the trend, at that point knowing is important. When I urge newbies to avoid the scale for a while and only weigh weekly, there is a chorus from folks years into their own plan asserting that they do fine with daily weighings. Major context disconnect. So what that someone who's been weighing daily for years no longer has a problem with it. That's not the common newbie context. The conundrum is that the scale gives objective numbers that contain signal noise and new folks tend to look at scale readings emotionally rather than objectively. It takes reassurance and time to get past that conundrum. A small number never hit this conundrum (say someone who weighed daily for years before starting), some get past it quick, some get past it slow, some get emotional when stepping on the scale even a year after starting. My comments weren't directed at you. Your follow-up is dead on and easily understandable by even the most ignorant of people. I expect that he will justify his position and somehow determine that his bizzare way of looking at things is the norm while somehow the rest of the world is wrong because that's what he does. Some people don't get over the emotions that come with the scale. Some do. As long as you have an alternative tool to deal with the necessary need to have some kind of monitoring, who cares as long as it's working? I'm not afraid to admit that two years after my main weight loss phase that the fluctuations still bother me and I know from private conversations with others that I am nowhere near alone in this. In my case they mean my hormones are way out of whack again because my fluctuations are still in the 10 lb range. At least I'm not blaming a scale malfunction for any sudden weight gains nor am I letting it deter me from keeping a major weight loss off. -- the volleyballchick |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
"Ignoramus23305" wrote in message .. . On 16 Aug 2005 13:32:57 -0700, Doug Freyburger wrote: Nunya B. wrote: Ignoramus23305 wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote: ... As long as the person looks at the trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and avoids freaking out, all is well. As long as enough data points are taken that a trend can be found, all is well. I don't want anyone to overreact and only weigh monthly on the principle that the time scale for loss is month to month. The water retention noise needs more data to resolve the monthly trend. Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable mistakes. If someone acts irrationally after seeing unexpected numbers on the scale, that's their problem (and a sign of other problem) and not, as such, any proof that daily weighings are not useful. The daily weighings aren't useful to *that* person which doesn't make *that* person wrong. I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This is why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix your head." People who have an emotional reaction to the scale can work around it. I know I have and it's working fine for me. Then again I actually admit that I *have* emotions and I enjoy life much more for it. I would not consider a person who gives up dieting or does stupid things after seeing simple, objective data from the scale, to be someone who has "fixed his or her head". Such behavior is about as far from a properly working head, as it gets. And you're probably the last person who could actually judge that. The conundrum is that the scale gives objective numbers that contain signal noise and new folks tend to look at scale readings emotionally rather than objectively. There is no reason why a person cannot experience emotions (such as upset or celebration), and yet act rationally and not stupidly. Sure there are plenty of reasons. However you will continue to ignore what doesn't fit into your little universe and then go ahead and judge the actions of others based on your extremely rigid and unnatural beliefs about human behavior. It takes reassurance and time to get past that conundrum. A small number never hit this conundrum (say someone who weighed daily for years before starting), some get past it quick, some get past it slow, some get emotional when stepping on the scale even a year after starting. Note that in maintenance, for someone who eats roughly as much as it is necessary to maintain weight, there is no (or very little if the balance is a bit off) upward or downward trend. Only noise. And noise (random fluctuations) adds up as more and more time elapses between observations. Wrong again. You have again assumed that everyone experiences the same thing as you, though we don't all blame our scales for a sudden weight gain. Didn't you just recently post that someone you know had an unexplained sudden 10+ lb gain? Of course we should all just ignore the medical professionals and listen to an internet ignoramus. So, if you weigh less frequently during maintenance, you will see greater weight fluctuations between weighings, if you weigh less often. There are plenty of people who weigh weekly (less often than daily) or monthly and don't see much fluctuation at all compared to a daily weigher. You are assuming information without any evidence aka stating an opinion as if it were fact. I know successful maintainers, including myself, who weigh monthly and are able to keep fluctuations to a minimum. When my feet swell up, I get on the scale to monitor the fluctuation (10+ lbs) and it has NOTHING to do with the fact that I don't weigh daily since my food logs show I eat consistently. My personal experience and that of actual human beings I deal with is evidence to me that you're full of crap. Also, while daily weighing works for some people, it's not recommended by actual experts in the field of weight loss and eating disorders for EVERYONE. But, of course, we should all ignore the experts who do this research for a living and listen to an internet ignoramus. Well, no. I'll trust Kelly Brownell over you any day since if I'd followed your advice I'd have given up before even starting because I would have been "beyond a point of no return" or some other such drama queen crap you've posted. -- the volleyballchick |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Nunya B. wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote Nunya B. wrote: Ignoramus23305 wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote: ... As long as the person looks at the trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and avoids freaking out, all is well ... Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable mistakes ... I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This is why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix your head." ... The reason I urge newbies to avoid the scale is because so many newbies have emotional reactions to what the scale says today; they don't know about water retention bounce yet. Is it true of all newbies? No. Is it true of very many newbies? Yes. I have to go with the trend. My comments weren't directed at you. I know, but I often advise newbies to stay off the scale except weekly (on ASD and ASDLC) and I often get flack for those posts. Your follow-up is dead on and easily understandable by even the most ignorant of people. Thanks. Some people don't get over the emotions that come with the scale. Some do. As long as you have an alternative tool to deal with the necessary need to have some kind of monitoring, who cares as long as it's working? I'm not afraid to admit that two years after my main weight loss phase that the fluctuations still bother me and I know from private conversations with others that I am nowhere near alone in this. In my case they mean my hormones are way out of whack again because my fluctuations are still in the 10 lb range. At least I'm not blaming a scale malfunction for any sudden weight gains nor am I letting it deter me from keeping a major weight loss off. I got over it after discussing the matter of signal noise with a fellow engineer who was dieting and doing data smoothing. I worry about what I don't understand so for me what it took was understanding that scale flucuations act like line noise. A strategy that seems to work well on engineers, scientists, actuaries, statisticians and other mathophiles. My water retention swing is 6 pounds. I know from discussion on various boards and groups that this is a higher number than most men. I don't understand why that is, but once I learned the number I was able to figure out what was noise and what was signal. For me, understanding the pattern works better than understanding why I happen to be along the bell curve on something. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message oups.com... Nunya B. wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote Nunya B. wrote: Ignoramus23305 wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote: ... As long as the person looks at the trend rather than the daily noise-ridden number and avoids freaking out, all is well ... Not practicing rational approach to life means making avoidable mistakes ... I'm pretty tired of your constant assertion that having actual human emotions is somehow abnormal. Emotional eating is a REAL issue. It affects a lot of people whether they realize it or not. This is why Dally's excellent steps to weight loss do include the first step "fix your head." ... The reason I urge newbies to avoid the scale is because so many newbies have emotional reactions to what the scale says today; they don't know about water retention bounce yet. Is it true of all newbies? No. Is it true of very many newbies? Yes. I have to go with the trend. My comments weren't directed at you. I know, but I often advise newbies to stay off the scale except weekly (on ASD and ASDLC) and I often get flack for those posts. Your follow-up is dead on and easily understandable by even the most ignorant of people. Thanks. Some people don't get over the emotions that come with the scale. Some do. As long as you have an alternative tool to deal with the necessary need to have some kind of monitoring, who cares as long as it's working? I'm not afraid to admit that two years after my main weight loss phase that the fluctuations still bother me and I know from private conversations with others that I am nowhere near alone in this. In my case they mean my hormones are way out of whack again because my fluctuations are still in the 10 lb range. At least I'm not blaming a scale malfunction for any sudden weight gains nor am I letting it deter me from keeping a major weight loss off. I got over it after discussing the matter of signal noise with a fellow engineer who was dieting and doing data smoothing. I worry about what I don't understand so for me what it took was understanding that scale flucuations act like line noise. A strategy that seems to work well on engineers, scientists, actuaries, statisticians and other mathophiles. My water retention swing is 6 pounds. I know from discussion on various boards and groups that this is a higher number than most men. I don't understand why that is, but once I learned the number I was able to figure out what was noise and what was signal. For me, understanding the pattern works better than understanding why I happen to be along the bell curve on something. Yeah, I have to agree - after all of this time of knowing it's going to happen, the water swing doesn't get to me as deeply as it did in the past. -- the volleyballchick |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Ignoramus23305 wrote:
There is no reason why a person cannot experience emotions (such as upset or celebration), and yet act rationally and not stupidly. There is a cliche "Courage is not lack of fear. Lack of fear is rashness. Courage is having fear and acting anyways." My correlary that applies to diet is "Patience is not lack of frustration. Lack of frustration could be anything from ignorance through nirvana. Patience is being frustrated and continuing on-plan anyways." Many folks think I'm extremely patient. I stick to stuff year after year. Don't think I'm not frustrated often. No, I just ask myself what the alternatives are. Would I rather keep chugging through my frustration, or would I rather quit and gain to more than when i started? I know what happens to folks who quit. They come back a few years later bigger than when they first started or they never come back. I'd rather be frustrated thanx. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Nunya B. wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote: My water retention swing is 6 pounds. I know from discussion on various boards and groups that this is a higher number than most men. I don't understand why that is, but once I learned the number I was able to figure out what was noise and what was signal. For me, understanding the pattern works better than understanding why I happen to be along the bell curve on something. Yeah, I have to agree - after all of this time of knowing it's going to happen, the water swing doesn't get to me as deeply as it did in the past. The long term view: I suggest this means you are over taking the scale emotionally. The direction you are heading is more important than the place you are starting from. Hold your head straight forward and what you see is the problem solved. Holding your head straight forward, that's also called holding your head high. A sign of pride in your own accomplishment. |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
On 16 Aug 2005 08:19:45 -0700, "Beverly"
wrote: I wonder if the age at which obesity occurs might also be a factor? I never had a weight problem until my mid 40's (onset of menopause) so I had several years of eating at a maintenance level under my belt. This seems extremely plausible, though it doesn't apply to me. I was overweight in varying degrees for my entire adult life until a year ago. But I think over the course of losing weight and becoming an active person I've sort of morphed into someone who knows how :-). Honestly, I sometimes feel like the same brain in an alien body -- everything works so differently now than it once did! Chris 262/130s/130s started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004 |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
On 16 Aug 2005 07:37:25 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
wrote: Chris and Beverly both mentioned roll your own. Both experienced and well-read folks years into their process. Neither newbies. Well, we were both newbies once. I was a newbie three years ago, and began with a "roll my own" plan. After two years of weight loss and one year of maintenance, I'm still doing much the same thing. I do think it's possible to approach a "roll your own" diet in an intelligent way. Not everyone approaches it from a position of ignorance, you know. Chris 262/130s/130s started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004 |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
additional protein limits weight regain | Doug Skrecky | General Discussion | 12 | June 12th, 2005 09:49 AM |
Weight Loss Strategies | Gary Matthews | Weightwatchers | 0 | June 6th, 2005 06:04 AM |
Induction and weight lifting? Comments plz | Slider | Low Carbohydrate Diets | 9 | June 18th, 2004 06:29 AM |
Water: the key to weight loss | Philip Miranda | Weightwatchers | 6 | April 18th, 2004 10:22 AM |
Some WW recipe sites | LIMEYNO1 | Weightwatchers | 1 | January 17th, 2004 04:03 AM |