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Benefits of ketogenic diets
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:53:53 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote: Years ago I've read studies that show that both very low calorie and very low carb diets reduce T3 output. In most cases, this is nothing to be concerned about. http://aworldlymonk.wordpress.com/20...a-false-alarm/ "Other things equal, lower levels of dietary carbohydrate mean lower levels of blood sugar. The simplest and most plausible explanation for the lower levels of T3 that accompany low-carb diets is that the amount of T3 required to perform all of its functions is now less." Which also suggests that "treating to the number" is the wrong thing to do. Doctors should treat to the patient, and then only if there are obvious physical symptoms. Decades of eating the Standard American Diet can play havoc with our metabolisms. Transitioning to a low carb (or even a calory restricted diet, as you mentioned above) way of eating requires less T3, so the body adjusts. The person who asked about T3 levels and low-carb diets should elaborate further on why he's inquiring about this subject. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
#12
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Benefits of ketogenic diets
On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 21:26:29 -0500, Dogman
wrote: [snip] Not to mention that by restricting carbs, it's pretty hard to "over consume" protein and fat. I don't mean to be argumentative, and I certainly don't know anything about this stuff, but I'm having trouble understanding that. Why would it be "hard" to over-consume protein and fat? -- croy |
#13
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Benefits of ketogenic diets
On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:30:37 -0800, croy
wrote: On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 21:26:29 -0500, Dogman wrote: [snip] Not to mention that by restricting carbs, it's pretty hard to "over consume" protein and fat. I don't mean to be argumentative, and I certainly don't know anything about this stuff, but I'm having trouble understanding that. Why would it be "hard" to over-consume protein and fat? Fat and protein are essentially low-glycemic foods. They don't spike blood sugar levels, like carbs do. Most carbs (especially the refined kind) are high glycemic foods. And fat (in particular) is very filling, meaning you can go longer between meals (especially when fat-adapted). Carbs (sugar) are addictive, causing over-eating (over-consumption). PS: It's okay to be "argumentative" here. It's a very argumentative newsgroup. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
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Benefits of ketogenic diets
croy wrote:
Dogman wrote: Not to mention that by restricting carbs, it's pretty hard to "over consume" protein and fat. I don't mean to be argumentative, and I certainly don't know anything about this stuff, but I'm having trouble understanding that. Why would it be "hard" to over-consume protein and fat? Folks whose only previous experience is mixing carbs into protein and fat often have a hard time believing it. Actually trying it becomes very convincing. With low carb counts the body resists eating too much fat or protein. Before trying it physically try a hought experiment. Imagine mixing a stick of butter with an equal calorie count of sugar and eating it. This resembles a candy formula and some of us would have trouble stopping once we started eating it. Imagine mixing a stick of butter with an equal calorie count of more butter (two sticks). Now imagine eating two sticks of butter in one sitting. Many folks can't imagine managing to finish that much straight butter. Now move on to a physical experiment. Start low carbing and be in ketonuria. Count the calories you have for breakfast. Figure out how much straight oil that many calories will be. Maybe between 1 and 2 shot glasses. Now commit to having that much straight oil as your breakfast for a week. See what happens. I tried it once. The first day I tossed off the just under 2 shots and I wasn't hungry for lunch. The second day I was not comfortable having the second almost shot of oil. The third day I had to sip the oil. The fourth day I had to hold my nose to manage to swallow any of the oil. The fifth day I could not even swallow the oil by holding my nose. My body refused to swallow it. It's possible to over eat of fat and protein when low carbing but the body does resist. Dr Atkins claimed that the body resisted at a level that ensured loss. Experience of low carbers reports that it can be easy to eat at a level that prevents loss it is indeed hard to eat at a level that forces new fat into storage. Experience of low carbers reports that many but not all find it easy to exercise portion control once low carbing. |
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Benefits of ketogenic diets
Susan wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote: In fact it's in the design of every well known low carb plan to ultilize this metabolic loophole to burn stored fat without triggering starvation moded. Not relevent, once again. I KNOW why it happens, I'm a well read long term very low carber. The discussion here is how it affects T3. And you're one of the few who understand the T3 tie-in for why lower and lower carb for longer and longer is not a good thing. that's why metabolism rate adapts, to conserve them. Stalls do in fact happen in a very large number of people who go too low too long. In fact it's in the design of every well known low carb plan to avoid such stalls. Stalls actually happen in all diet methods, that's called a plateau. In my case, permanent lowering of metabolism occurred after my T3 dropped off the charts, after my first few days of induction levels during a brief Atkins trial. Exactly. Different people have different levels of T3 response but you posted reports that T3 keeps dropping and dropping in low carbers over time. You saw such rapid drop the regular two week Induction was too much for you. Some others see stalls starting in two weeks as reported in studies about "VLCD" (where the C means calories unfortunately) if they stay on Induction. Others don't stall at 20 until they have under some amount to lose. Others still make it all the way down to their ideal weight at 20. Needless to say, those who make it all the way down to their ideal weight at 20 assert it's the best way to go for everyone. How would that work for you? Exactly. So there are optimization strategies that work for the lucky ones, and then there are optimization strategies that work fo rthe ones who aren't that lucky. Stall avoidance matters. ... Because low carbing has us not hungry, so it might have monkeys not hungry and, so I thought until the results of that study came out, have also resulted in longevity benefits. Low carbing has some folks, most folks not hungry or less hungry. But not all. Correct. With low fat a large minority are never hungry but either a majroty of large majority are constantly hungry. Doctor Atkins claimed that no one is hungry while low carbing. He wasn't correct. I think a higher pecentage of the population are not hungry while low carbing than while low fatting but I am not aware of any study done to confirm that opinion. I think it true but would need studies to be certain it's true. I do know that some are constantly hungry while low carbing the way I was constantly hungry while I was low fatting. Those would be the folks with higher cortisol levels, which can be caused, TAH DAH, by lower T3! Thyroid and cortisol act in limiting ways on one another. Before you mentioned cortisol I do not believe any major figure in the low carb field addressed the topic with any significant effort. One of the several arguments lodged against low carbing is that going very low effects cortisol levels and that change in cortisol levels causes irritability that drives people off low carbing. This argument assumes that most low carbers go low enough and stay low enough long enough to trigger cortisol level changes. In sert usual statement about different people reacting differently here - You have a much stronger reaction than most. The problem with that argument is it boils down to most/all low carbers staying at Induction levels. Which is yet another reason why I stress that "following the directions" includes not digging for excuses to stay on phase 1 of a 4 phase process. No, I never read any diet doctor's directions before succesfully low carbing, and Dr. Atkins were not the best ones out there when I did... I read PubMed and created a diet from the information there, then read some books. Only Protein Power proved fully accurate and useful. It addressed the T3 issue, too, and the need to supplement some patients in their practice when they went on low carb. How did your thyroxine dosage change and how did that impact your cortisol levels? When I started low carbing my dosage was not changed but as it mentions in the Atkins book I entered a permanent stall 6 months after I switched from "stay near CCLL" to "dig for excuses to stay lower". I did 6 months doing a lock step process to find my CCLL and stick to it and during that 6 months I lost 40 pounds. Very fast results. Then I spent 6 months at 30 because 30 is easy and I didn't lose a pound. That's when I started going back through forum archives finding dozens or hundreds who had stalled by staying at 20 and I started studying T3 levels. |
#16
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Benefits of ketogenic diets
On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:00:33 -0500, Susan wrote:
[...] I have never had appetite suppression by low carb. Lessening, perhaps, but I am often hungry when I should not be. This suggests that you're probably not eating enough FAT. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
#17
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Benefits of ketogenic diets
Susan wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote: ... Because low carbing has us not hungry, so it might have monkeys not hungry and, so I thought until the results of that study came out, have also resulted in longevity benefits. I have never had appetite suppression by low carb. Lessening, perhaps, but I am often hungry when I should not be. That sucks. You're hungry when on low fat and hungry when on low carb. I think a higher pecentage of the population are not hungry while low carbing than while low fatting but I am not aware of any study done to confirm that opinion. Seriously? You haven't seen those studies where low carbers were told to eat until satisfied and low fatters stuck to low cal and lost half the weight on 50% less calories? Start with the Schneider Peds study. Those studies do not report who was hungry. They report who ate how many calories and who lost how much. I think it true but would need studies to be certain it's true. I do know that some are constantly hungry while low carbing the way I was constantly hungry while I was low fatting. There have been studies, have you never sought them out? Where are the studies that report on hunger levels? They are not the studies were free eating low carbers lost at first better and and later as well as calorie restricted low fatters. Before you mentioned cortisol I do not believe any major figure in the low carb field addressed the topic with any significant effort. Nope, and certainly not Dr. Atkins. In fact, his suggestion of a fat fast for resistant dieters would allow cortisol to rise even more due to lowered insulin levels (high insulin levels lower adrenal steroid synthesis and also CBG, the cortisol transport protein). To me your interest in the topic of cortisol triggers a major advance in the understanding of low carb metabolism. It added a deeper understanding for me when I studied the topic. One of the several arguments lodged against low carbing is that going very low effects cortisol levels and that change in cortisol levels causes irritability that drives people off low carbing. I was a jittery, sleepless, anxious mess for three weeks, but I stuck with it and adapted. Yikes. When I went through my first Induction I was a jittery sleepless mess for a couple of day then I adjusted. The problem with that argument is it boils down to most/all low carbers staying at Induction levels. Which is yet another reason why I stress that "following the directions" includes not digging for excuses to stay on phase 1 of a 4 phase process. One doesn't need an excuse when Dr. Atkins said in his book that there's nothing wrong with staying at induction levels if one is content and all is going well. He was right. The "if" matters. The "if" matters. It's also ignored by some here who deny that anyone stalls starting about day 15 when they stay at 20. I've seen very many people reporting that. It happens. When I started low carbing my dosage was not changed but as it mentions in the Atkins book I entered a permanent stall 6 months after I switched from "stay near CCLL" to "dig for excuses to stay lower". I did 6 months doing a lock step process to find my CCLL and stick to it and during that 6 months I lost 40 pounds. Very fast results. Then I spent 6 months at 30 because 30 is easy and I didn't lose a pound. That's when I started going back through forum archives finding dozens or hundreds who had stalled by staying at 20 and I started studying T3 levels. Except for that month or two, I've never needed thyroid meds. Most folks do much better on a natural thyroid meds or others with both T3 and T4... I was put on generic for Synthroid around 10 years before I started low carbing. It always worked well for me and there was no apparent change in that when I started low carbing. Thanks for the educational discussion! Always good to disagree with you. It keeps my thinking sharp and my ideas evolving. |
#18
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Benefits of ketogenic diets
In article ,
Doug Freyburger wrote: croy wrote: Dogman wrote: Not to mention that by restricting carbs, it's pretty hard to "over consume" protein and fat. I don't mean to be argumentative, and I certainly don't know anything about this stuff, but I'm having trouble understanding that. Why would it be "hard" to over-consume protein and fat? Folks whose only previous experience is mixing carbs into protein and fat often have a hard time believing it. Actually trying it becomes very convincing. With low carb counts the body resists eating too much fat or protein. Before trying it physically try a hought experiment. Imagine mixing a stick of butter with an equal calorie count of sugar and eating it. This resembles a candy formula and some of us would have trouble stopping once we started eating it. Imagine mixing a stick of butter with an equal calorie count of more butter (two sticks). Now imagine eating two sticks of butter in one sitting. Many folks can't imagine managing to finish that much straight butter. Now move on to a physical experiment. Start low carbing and be in ketonuria. Count the calories you have for breakfast. Figure out how much straight oil that many calories will be. Maybe between 1 and 2 shot glasses. Now commit to having that much straight oil as your breakfast for a week. See what happens. I tried it once. The first day I tossed off the just under 2 shots and I wasn't hungry for lunch. The second day I was not comfortable having the second almost shot of oil. The third day I had to sip the oil. The fourth day I had to hold my nose to manage to swallow any of the oil. The fifth day I could not even swallow the oil by holding my nose. My body refused to swallow it. It's possible to over eat of fat and protein when low carbing but the body does resist. Dr Atkins claimed that the body resisted at a level that ensured loss. Experience of low carbers reports that it can be easy to eat at a level that prevents loss it is indeed hard to eat at a level that forces new fat into storage. Experience of low carbers reports that many but not all find it easy to exercise portion control once low carbing. One may also have to limit protein which can be converted to glycogen. -- This space unintentionally left blank. |
#19
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Benefits of ketogenic diets
Walter Bushell wrote:
One may also have to limit protein which can be converted to glycogen. This is yet another reason that low carbing is low carb, medium protein, high fat not low carb, medium fat, high protein. At least when optimized for loss. The body can't store much protein or is slow to store protein. it has to grow new lean mass to store protein. So when we eat excess protein grams, a tiny amount of it goes to growing new lean and the rest of the excess is burned into glucose at very roughly 50% efficiency. Let's say your protein minimum is 100 grams, however you calculated it. Let's say you ate 150 grams of protein today. The best guess is those extra 50 grams of protein count as if they were 25 grams of carb. Reading food reports of a number of people it's been my impression that folks tend to near protein grams near a specific level most days. Some higher, sme lower but clustered around a number. So the carb contribution from protein becomes a part of the background. It only effects their carb counts when they want to work very hard to optimize their results. Protein over eating to the point of gain is not a frequent problem that I can see. Protein over eating as a percentage compared to fat calories seems common is newbies not so much among seasoned low carbers. I think partially because we gradually lose fear of fat plus as we lose our calorie quota goes gradually down and the way to reduce calories is by reducing our intake. Counting carb grams seems to work better than countng carb percentage. Counting protein grams seems to work better than counting protein percentage. Both for most plan types anyways. That leaves fat grams as what remains to reduce as we lose and need to less. |
#20
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Benefits of ketogenic diets
On Dec 11, 12:28*pm, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Susan wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote: In fact it's in the design of every well known low carb plan to ultilize this metabolic loophole to burn stored fat without triggering starvation moded. Not relevent, once again. I KNOW why it happens, I'm a well read long term very low carber. *The discussion here is how it affects T3. And you're one of the few who understand the T3 tie-in for why lower and lower carb for longer and longer is not a good thing. that's why metabolism rate adapts, to conserve them. Stalls do in fact happen in a very large number of people who go too low too long. *In fact it's in the design of every well known low carb plan to avoid such stalls. Stalls actually happen in all diet methods, that's called a plateau. In my case, permanent lowering of metabolism occurred after my T3 dropped off the charts, after my first few days of induction levels during a brief Atkins trial. Exactly. *Different people have different levels of T3 response but you posted reports that T3 keeps dropping and dropping in low carbers over time. *You saw such rapid drop the regular two week Induction was too much for you. *Some others see stalls starting in two weeks as reported in studies about "VLCD" (where the C means calories unfortunately) if they stay on Induction. *Others don't stall at 20 until they have under some amount to lose. *Others still make it all the way down to their ideal weight at 20. *Needless to say, those who make it all the way down to their ideal weight at 20 assert it's the best way to go for everyone. How would that work for you? *Exactly. So there are optimization strategies that work for the lucky ones, and then there are optimization strategies that work fo rthe ones who aren't that lucky. *Stall avoidance matters. ... Because low carbing has us not hungry, so it might have monkeys not hungry and, so I thought until the results of that study came out, have also resulted in longevity benefits. Low carbing has some folks, most folks not hungry or less hungry. *But not all. Correct. *With low fat a large minority are never hungry but either a majroty of large majority are constantly hungry. *Doctor Atkins claimed that no one is hungry while low carbing. *He wasn't correct. *I think a higher pecentage of the population are not hungry while low carbing than while low fatting but I am not aware of any study done to confirm that opinion. *I think it true but would need studies to be certain it's true. *I do know that some are constantly hungry while low carbing the way I was constantly hungry while I was low fatting. Those would be the folks with higher cortisol levels, which can be caused, TAH DAH, by lower T3! *Thyroid and cortisol act in limiting ways on one another. Before you mentioned cortisol I do not believe any major figure in the low carb field addressed the topic with any significant effort. One of the several arguments lodged against low carbing is that going very low effects cortisol levels and that change in cortisol levels causes irritability that drives people off low carbing. *This argument assumes that most low carbers go low enough and stay low enough long enough to trigger cortisol level changes. *In sert usual statement about different people reacting differently here - You have a much stronger reaction than most. The problem with that argument is it boils down to most/all low carbers staying at Induction levels. *Which is yet another reason why I stress that "following the directions" includes not digging for excuses to stay on phase 1 of a 4 phase process. There you go again. Misrepresenting Dr Atkins. The directions do not say you must move on from induction after two weeks. Atkins actually was very positive to the ideas. You claimed a few posts ago that stalls occur in large numbers of people who go too low in carbs, too long. Study or reference please that it happens to them significantly more than it happens to someone at say 50g of carbs. As Susan pointed out, stalls occur in people on all kinds of diets, at various points in time. Most times we don't know the reason why. It could be mostly due to the body having some specific weight set points, below which it is reluctant to go. And again, I've given you the page references from Atkins where his advice is directly opposite what you keep claiming. For example, he posted a series of questions that one should ask themselves BEFORE MOVING ON FROM INDUCTION. One of those questions was if you have a lot to lose. Mighty strange advice if Atkins believed that you're not going to lose more weight, faster, at induction level of carbs. I know, it's your personal "observations", which you believe equal or trump Atkins. Personally, I'll stick with Dr Atkins, who had decades of experience with real patients. |
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