Wesley clark just entered the race

"HealthNutz" wrote in message
are so small in practice as to be moot. A despot is a despot--does it
really matter what's in his heart?

It does when he's president of the United States and acting in the interests
of an elite group of secret society friends and war profiteers and against
the interests of his own people and using rhetoric about freedom and
democracy as a cover while eroding real freedom and democracy..


Since you guys seem to have a knack for getting your 'nads in a crack, why
should we listen to you? How come you're not listening to us? Pride?
Arrogance? Or ignorance...?

Time to drop the word Health from your handle I think...

"Bobo Bonobo®" wrote in message Yes, you are
absolutely right. They do think that. It's hard to
believe they still think that after what has happened over the last 2
1/5 years though.

The American people--the most innovative and productive people on the
planet--seem retarded when it comes to politics.

--Bryan 198/152/155

Would be funny if it wasn't tragic.. When civil/human rights are abused in
other countries, they are among the first to recognise the injustice. When
it happens at home. they seem to think it can't be happening because they
are conditioned to believe freedom and democracy will protect them. Or am I
wrong?

Chet Hayes wrote:
If you can't take the heat and stand up to some pussy foreigner's who
don't like the US, then maybe you should just stay home. If I were
France or Germany, I would be so grateful to the US for saving my ass
in WWII and from the Soviets in the cold war, that I wouldn't be
picking senseless arguments over despots like Sadam Hussein.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, over 30m people died
in WW2 defending freedom. Around 290,000 of those were from the US.
Around 290,000 were from Britain (a far larger proportion of the
population) and 13,000,000 of them were from the USSR. If any
gratitude is felt anywhere for defending freedom in WW2, it should be
directed towards the people of the former USSR.

As far as the cold war goes, the West was in it together. The USA
shares (if I remember my geography) a tiny portion of its border with
the former USSR, but part of Germany was handed over to the
communists. There is no moral high ground here, and trying to take it
on behalf of your nation only makes you look foolish.


Lexin

In article ,
"Lexin" wrote:

As I pointed out before, the US was not alone in that war. At one
stage, in the very early days of the war, there were only two countries
fighting the might of the Wehrmacht, and they were Britain and Greece.
Yes, probably that war could not have been won without the US, but
gracelessly taking credit for the entire thing does your country no
credit.

Probably? Probably? That war and more. Massive, and I mean
unprecedentedly massive shipments of foodstuffs, fuel and war materiel
to England and the Soviet UNion before we actually sent troops kept both
of these "allies" in the game almost from the beginning of hostilities.
Your country can be forgiven its permissiveness and refusal to recognize
true evil that led up to the war. This is a tendency for all democracies
(which you finally had the wit to become after being forced to witness
American colonists successfully defeating reign by accident of birth).
After the fighting began, however, England's resourcefulness and
singular courage is still the model for those virtues in the American
mind today. Even in hollywood movies where left-wingers get their
history. Don't accuse us of bad manners, however, for telling a truth
that even your PM is willing to admit. If the lot of you have any bacon
today it's because we saved it. More than once. And, to this observer,
it looks like the same dysfunctional, class-obsessed european boobouisie
that gave us WWI and WWII are gearing up for another cycle of insanity.

-Have you ever seen Al Franken and Jeanine Garofolo together in the same
room?

wrote in message
...
Probably? Probably? That war and more. Massive, and I mean
unprecedentedly massive shipments of foodstuffs, fuel and war materiel
to England and the Soviet UNion

The USA *sold* overpriced stuff to UK for 2 years; this included stale food
and utterly useless ancient destroyers, for example.

This is a tendency for all democracies
(which you finally had the wit to become after being forced to witness
American colonists successfully defeating reign by accident of birth).

Erm, I seem to have forgotten something. Could you please remind us who the
current US President is. I seem to recall that he is a spoilt inadequate
who reigns principally 'by accident of birth' (and sibling chicanery). To
further the analogy with C18 England, he too is surrounded by certifiably
lunatic sycophants.

After the fighting began, however, England's resourcefulness and
singular courage is still the model for those virtues in the American
mind today.

Erm, is that 'after the fighting began' as in 1939, or as in December 1941?
Bear in mind that the USA only entered the 'European' war because Hitler
suicidally swung in behind Japan, and declared war on America. Otherwise,
the USA would probably have fought a Pacific war and cheerfully left the
European nations to pummel each other into oblivion.

And, to this observer,
it looks like the same dysfunctional, class-obsessed european boobouisie
that gave us WWI and WWII are gearing up for another cycle of insanity.

No, grasshopper, your leaders have learned well, but they have learned
nothing. The USA is now marching into a bigger, better global conflict, but
this time armed with infinitely more terrifying weaponry, an infinitely
greater sense of blinkered self-righteousness and infinitely more
impassioned hatred ranged against it. Previous wars were primarily
territorial. This one is ideological, much like the Crusades. As such, it
is going to be far longer and far nastier ...

wrote:
Your country can be forgiven its permissiveness and refusal to
recognize
true evil that led up to the war.

Er...had it not been for Pearl Harbour the US would probably not have
joined the war at all. And by that time Britain had been fighting real
battles for quite some time.

This is a tendency for all democracies
(which you finally had the wit to become after being forced to witness
American colonists successfully defeating reign by accident of birth).

I think you need to look back at your history books, your British
history seems to be a bit out of wack.

If the lot of you have any bacon
today it's because we saved it.

But not alone. No country did it alone, not even the US and my
gratitude goes to the Russians, frankly. A loss of 13m as opposed to
290,000 for the US, about the same for Britain - though given our
relative populations that's still person for person a whole lot greater
sacrifice.

--
Lexin
www.redrosepress.co.uk
www.livejournal.com/~lexin
LC since 9 June 2003
(300/263/182)

"M.W. Smith" wrote in message
...
....
You had the last word.
Thank you kindly, sir! (:-o)

DustyB


martin
....

"Lexin" wrote in message
...
....
A despot is a despot--does it
really matter what's in his heart?
Yes, I think it does. If people make the repeated point that "political
and social philosophy X leads to bad effect Y, as exemplified by tyrant
And there we have it, folks. Despot A kills 20 million human beings; depot
B kills 6 million human beings, despot C kills 1/4 of his countries
population; and we're reduced to debating the relative merits of the basis
of one despot's methods as opposed to the others? Liberal, elitist
intelligentsia ruminations at their pointless finest!

....
I have to say that given the lack of a fully comprehensive welfare
system and a national health service, I wouldn't live in the US if you
paid me to come - and I'm currently a net payer for those services
rather than a user of them.
Good! I don't want a socialized health care system that serves its citizens
as poorly as does yours. I lived and worked in GB for 4-1/2 years. My
daughter was born there. I've had the unfortunate occasion to have had need
of your "progressive" health care system. That usage gave me the
opportunity to see it from the inside, devoid of liberal spin and cover--not
a pretty thing! Americans should be grateful that they don't have to rely
on something equally overloaded and incompetent.

....
After the fall of France, Greece and Britain happened to be the last two
unconquered nations who were already in the war. Remember, this was
Yes. And so? This is essentially what I had said...

before the US joined. Remember also, that the US's first attitude
towards this European conflict was to let the Europeans get on with it
unaided. This was pretty prevalent up until (and even sometimes as far
That would have been my option as well. You folks have been warring on and
killing each other in one way, shape, form, place or another for thousands
of years. Why get in the middle of such an endless conflict?

However, wiser heads prevailed. I'm reluctant to give them credit for
having the vision to notice that we're all living on an increasingly
"smaller" globe. And along with that comes the growing ability of
combatants to be able to visit increasingly lethal destruction upon each
other, more accurately, and at greater ranges. But those two issues made
entry important (but whether it was for that reason or not is unknown to
me). Today the globe is even "smaller", and lethality of many things is
even greater.

There can never again be a case for taking action *after* a "shot" has been
fired. That option only works for cowards and the deceased.

as the European theatre was concerned, after) Pearl Harbour. It could
even be argued that the US joined not to ensure freedom for Europe, but
because it saw its European markets about to disappear - Hitler did not
Yeah. I'm sure that was it. I was wondering how long it would take for you
to get to the "eviiiil biiiig businesssssss!" part. I love how that works;
big business is evil, big government is wonderful...big sigh!

....
You said, "You would be well advised to use the freedoms given to you
and Norway by American blood and material wisely" and repeated the same
argument in this part of the thread. The implication was that the US,
You keep on returning to the drumbeat of how it wasn't America alone. I
believe that I've already stipulated that. Except in your mind, that's not
the issue in dispute here! The issue is that without American entry into
*your* war, you wouldn't have the country you have at the moment. In case
it's escaped your notice, you (not 'you' personally, "Lexin", Europe in
general) guys were getting your asses kicked! You weren't in the process of
liberating France and the rest of the poodles over there, it was just the
opposite--you were being ground under! A point you can't seem to
understand.

Probably because all of the intelligentsia were too busy debating the
relative merits of one version of a totalitarian paradise over another.

....
Graceless would be not thanking those who helped - and that, as I've
commented twice now, includes but is not limited to the USA. It could
Would that be those that helped *before* the American entry into your
conflict, or the ones that help after...?

....
Could not then at least a weak argument be made that between us (as
countries on either side of that chasm), that when the United States
has
already TWICE demonstrated the ability to defend freedom for not only
itself, but others as well; that it should at least have a fair say in
how
future events are carried out?

I don't believe, so, no. Freedom is worth nothing if those for whom it
Then you I will simply have to agree to disagree. As a practical man,
things to me sometimes tend to be black and white.

I've gotten along quite well through the application of a single bit of
wisdom that I came upon some time back. I live by: when you do something
and the result turns out NOT to be the one you wanted; you can be accused of
being dumb. Then, when you continue to do the same thing over and over and
over, and get the same result; that's stupid! I endeavor to live my life so
as not to be known as stupid. When I do something dumb, I resolve to learn
from it. I adjust my rudder, and attempt to avoid a repetition of that
fate.

You Europeans have managed twice in the last century, by following your own
innate wisdom (a somewhat interesting but different thread I would think),
managed to get yourselves into a pickle that America had to come over to
fix. And now you self-righteously insist that *you* are the harbinger of
what's right and proper for all? And that if we had a lick of sense we
should hurry up and take you at your wisdom? And here I thought you guys
didn't have a sense of humor...

... long twisting, winding diatribe on freedom and democracy snipped ...
My family and I escaped from some twisted minds version of a socialist,
totalitarian "workers paradise". Many that fled with us (all 126, as far as
we know) didn't survive that event. I understand democracy and what it
stands for. I don't need a lecture on freedom, its value or its cost, or
what it's worth to one who so easily would give it up for the illusion of
security...


Later all,
DustyB

BTW; a most impressive set of numbers. Congrats!
Lexin
....
LC since 9 June 2003
(300/263/182)

"Barry Smith" wrote in message
...

"HealthNutz" wrote in message
eastern Germany. Until just recently, they couldn't do what you are
doing.
And that same fate was AND STILL IS the goal of the international
communist
party today.

Do you have a link for this international communist party?
http://www.vcp.nu/vcpnieuws/links.htm
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/links/
http://www.basque-red.net/eng/links/ecomueng/c001.htm
http://www.wpiran.org/links/links.html
http://www.communist-party.org.uk/home/index.php
http://www.communist-party.ca/links/WEurope.html
http://www.kominf.pp.fi/Textra.html
http://www.cpusa.org/article/archive/41/

Drop me a note when you've wended your way through these; I've got 360,000
more if you need them...

DustyB
--
-= Remove CARBS to reply =-

"HealthNutz" wrote:
A despot is a despot--does it
really matter what's in his heart?

"Lexin" wrote:
Yes, I think it does. If people make the repeated point that
"political
and social philosophy X leads to bad effect Y, as exemplified by
tyrant [snippage] In short, if you're going to
claim that social philosophy X leads to bad effect Y, at least choose
a
valid example.


"HealthNutz" wrote:
Liberal, elitist
intelligentsia ruminations at their pointless finest!

I think if you don't understand why your thinking here is sloppy, we
probably have nothing further to discuss.

--
Lexin
www.redrosepress.co.uk
www.livejournal.com/~lexin
LC since 9 June 2003
(300/263/182)