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#221
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Low carb diets
OmegaZero2003 wrote:
"Wayne S. Hill" wrote... The problem I have with this is that there's a point, with a very small number of neurons, where this distinction vanishes. First, I suspect that that type of system is uninteresting. Perhaps to you, but I've found that ANNs have unique properties for state space analysis. The chief one is this: given a set of inputs, each considered a different dimension for the state space of the problem, ANNs have the property of being able to scale each neighborhood of the state space differently. This is exceedingly difficult to achieve with explicit state space analysis techniques. -- -Wayne |
#222
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Low carb diets
"Wayne S. Hill" wrote in message ... OmegaZero2003 wrote: "Wayne S. Hill" wrote... The problem I have with this is that there's a point, with a very small number of neurons, where this distinction vanishes. First, I suspect that that type of system is uninteresting. Perhaps to you, but I've found that ANNs have unique properties for state space analysis. The chief one is this: given a set of inputs, each considered a different dimension for the state space of the problem, ANNs have the property of being able to scale each neighborhood of the state space differently. This is exceedingly difficult to achieve with explicit state space analysis techniques. Well - yeah - classifiers is a classic use for such. I meant from a research_into_brains standpoint, not man-made *A* NNs applied to other problems. -- -Wayne |
#223
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Low carb diets
In article ,
Lyle McDonald wrote: I can also report empirically the feedback I've gotten. This was from a few years ago (on the lowcarb-l list) from folks comparing things like Isocaloric (33/33/33) diets to Bodyopus (CKD) types of diets. These were motivated bodybuilder/athletic types who are known for being anal compulsive about their diet and who were using similar protein inakes and caloric deficits (and weight training and the rest). At *most*, the variance in fat loss/LBM loss was ~3 lbs over 12 weeks. That is, they might report 3 lbs more fat lost and 3 lbs more LBM maintained over that period. Adding: a. Even then, the effects weren't consistent. Some folks did better on CKD's, some folks better on Isocaloric (and lost more muscle on the CKD). Meaning there was no consistent pattern with one diet being absolutely superior. .. . . b. 3 lbs is within measurement error (sorry, this is the cynic in me speaking). Hell, it's within the error of glycogen and water balance. c. 3 lbs of fat vs LBM is hardly relevant for the majority of dieters. For an athlete or bodybuilder, yeah, it matters. But without a consistently superior diet or a way to know who will be ideally suited for one or the other, the above is kind of meaningless (at this point, there's no good way to apply it). A consistent difference of 3 lbs would be worthwhile. If the maximum difference measured is 3 lbs, and some measurements had the opposite sign, then I'd guess the average is unde 1 lb. That's well within the measurement error noise. Seth -- "There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate" -- Will Brink Except sushi rice, seaweed, and wasabi. |
#224
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Low carb diets
"OmegaZero2003" wrote in message ws.com...
"Wayne S. Hill" wrote in message ... OmegaZero2003 wrote: "Wayne S. Hill" wrote... The problem I have with this is that there's a point, with a very small number of neurons, where this distinction vanishes. First, I suspect that that type of system is uninteresting. Perhaps to you, but I've found that ANNs have unique properties for state space analysis. The chief one is this: given a set of inputs, each considered a different dimension for the state space of the problem, ANNs have the property of being able to scale each neighborhood of the state space differently. This is exceedingly difficult to achieve with explicit state space analysis techniques. Well - yeah - classifiers is a classic use for such. I meant from a research_into_brains standpoint, not man-made *A* NNs applied to other problems. A lot of hype wrt that, too. Better to actually understand the problem you're trying to solve than just slap an ANN on it. Proton Soup |
#225
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Low carb diets
Proton Soup wrote:
"OmegaZero2003" wrote... "Wayne S. Hill" wrote... Perhaps to you, but I've found that ANNs have unique properties for state space analysis. The chief one is this: given a set of inputs, each considered a different dimension for the state space of the problem, ANNs have the property of being able to scale each neighborhood of the state space differently. This is exceedingly difficult to achieve with explicit state space analysis techniques. Well - yeah - classifiers is a classic use for such. I meant from a research_into_brains standpoint, not man-made *A* NNs applied to other problems. A lot of hype wrt that, too. Better to actually understand the problem you're trying to solve than just slap an ANN on it. Although I agree with you, their ability to scale a state space neighborhood-by-neighborhood is unmatched by other available tools. -- -Wayne |
#226
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Low carb diets
roger wrote:
... I think it is pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of people fare better on a diet that is balanced between carbs, protein and fat with most of the carbs coming from vegetables, fruits and unprocessed grains (brown rice, whole wheat bread/pasta, etc) and avoiding the processed carbs. Pasta is a highly processed food, as is bread. Wholemeal bread is almost as glycemic as white bread. ... It is usually the case that extremes are not good for you. So that eliminates the extremely low fat, extremely low carb diets. First you have to show what 'extreme' means. Otherwise it is just name calling. The real question is what is optimal. Tim Josling |
#227
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Low carb diets
pete wrote:
Lyle McDonald wrote in message .. . Which makes for a tremendously ****ing boring diet, which most are unlikely to stick to. It does suck indeed. For the avg. dieter it is not realistic for most (although some such as Dr. Colker and his Greenwich diet, promote this type of low carb, low fat, high protein diet), and from the responses to the book,some people do indeed follow it. Even Elzi said above she was fond of eating salad and lean meats frequently. As am I. Doesn't change my statement. Or the fact that the *majority* aren't going to follow such a diet in the long-term. Keep in the forefront of your mind that yo'ure getting a very skewed version of reality hanging out in places like mfw or what have you. Almost by definition, you tend to get the successes (and the pathological anal compulsive head cases who would follow such a diet) and that can give a very skewed vision of reality. The simple fact is that most people stick with most behavioral changes beyodn a few weeks. The odds of them sticking to it when it's monotonous as all hell (b/c the food choices are so limited) is far less likely. Yeah, fine, bodybuilders and athletes will do it without problem. I don't have a problem with it but I don't thrive on variety (except in my porn), neither do you, neither does Elzi. I suspect, most people will want and need more variety than a lowcarb/lowfat/high protein/high veggie diet can provide and that means low adherence. I'm sure you did, I didn't read through the whole thread. But isn't this point huge, I mean, to me this is enough to make the point FOR a low carb diet. It makes a point for something OTHER than the standard modern diet. You can readily reduce the monstrous modern caloric intakes without removing all carbs from the diet. Small qualitiative changes are frequently sufficient without jumping from one extreme to the other. Are you seeing my point? Compared to the SAD, antyhing is better. Seriously, it would be hard to come up with a worse diet if you tried. Ok, maybe lard and table sugar but, hell, that's not far from what people are eating already. Improving upon that is not difficult by any stretch but I don't think it requires going to the lowcarb extreme either. Moderation and all that rot. Better in the sense that for many people, they enjoy higher fat foods vs. "clean" carbs and super-lean proteins. If having to choose between the two, most people I know would choose a steak and broccoli w/ garlic and olive oil vs. a baked potato and skinless chicken breast. Yeah, but most would rather have the steak, broccoli with butter, potato with more butter and fried chicken. True. But i'm talking in the context of comparing someone on a "diet", I won't argue the Std. Am. Diet is crap, i'm talking in the context of what 2 different dieters would "typically follow", either a low carb approach w/ moderate to high fat or a low fat approach w/ moderate-higher carbs. The universe can count to more than 2. I'm sure you can as well. It's also been argue that the Earth is flat but that doesn't make it true. Well, this is going along w/ what several others believe as well. Poliquin puts 50-75% of his clients on low carbs, in part b/c he does believe everyone has some degree of insulin resistance. Poliquin also said in one of the Q&A's I read last night that he rates his clients based on the 5 chinese types (he said he felt the Q asker was a 'fire' type). And that changing shoes alters fiber recruitment and that a 13:11 DHA/EPA ratio will break strength plateaus. Which makes me think that he's making up a lot of **** as he goes along. there is a tendency in this industry for people to say stupid **** to appear different or cutting edge. It is my understanding Doc Serrano and Dipasquale do the same, for the same reason. Well, Dipasquale made up his mind that his anabolic diet was optimal about 10 years ago and has been fitting all modern research into that belief. I'm friends with Serrano and, let's just say, I don't agree with everything he has to say. This is one of those places. The article I posted a while back by Dr. Ron Rosedale and his transcript on "Insulin and It's Metabolic Effects", talks about his success treating diabetes patients yeah, sure, diabetes. I'm down with low carb diets for diabetes. and his belief that everyone is "pre-diabetic". This is the same type of nonsense that folks use to sell all manners of snake oil. It's a bunch of bull****. It's like defining everyone as 'nutrient deficient' to sell vitamins and minerals. I personally don't think it's hard to believe that most people have this problem. For example, we have (i believe) a 60+% obesity rate in our country. Of course they are one the SAD diet w/ high fat and refined carbs, little activity. But the point being is they are eating high sat. fat, which worsens insulin sensitivity. High sugar and refined carbs, worsens things. High bodyfat, adaptions from this cause insulin resistance, right?? So Isn't most of our population "insulin resistant" to some degree b/c of thier weight and standard diet. I ahven't looked at hte numbers recently. Last one I saw, in terms of clinical insulin resistances was in the 25% range. It may be higher now. A huge confound (demonstrated in other studies) being the weight loss, which is really the key player. On lowcarb diets where weight is NOT lost, blood lipid profiles typically worsen. Lyle, what studies do you have on handy or what researchers should I lookfor on medline to find references to this. I'd be interested in learning more, I wasn't aware of worsened blood profiles in low carb dieters at maintenance calories. Hoffer LJ et. al. Metabolic effects of very low calorie weight reduction diets. J Clin Invest Krehl WA et. al. Some metabolic changes induced by low carbohydrate diets. Am J Clin Nutr (1967) 20: 139-148. Golay A et al. Weight-loss with low or high carbohydrate diet? Int J Obes Relat MetabDisord. (1996) 20: 1067-1072. Phinney SD et. al. The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: physical and biochemical adaptations. Metabolism (1983) 32: 757-768. Would be good starting points. Also, what types of fats were eaten. As with the current crop of studies, subjects were basically given the Atkins diet guidelines and told to follow them. meaning lots of sat fats and dietary cholesterol. I don't doubt u, but it's just hard to imagine a low carb diet of lean meats, monounsaturated fats and EFA's, and low gi veggies at mantenance calories worsening the blood profile. yeah, but now you're making requirements on low carb diets that I assure you the AVERAGE low carb dieter is absolutely NOT following. Someone following Atkins or what have you is not eating anything near the nutrient profile you listed above. So you can't have it both ways, specifying healthy nutrients for a lowcarb diet but not allowing them to be specificied for a non-low carb diet. Indeed. ANother question, for you and Elzi. She was talking about the damage from glycation. Dr. Rosedale discussed this in his article supporting a very low carb diet. Does glycation always occur from the ingestion of carbs and proteins, and what exactly is the damage done from this process when it does occur. Not my area of expertise, ask someone who cares. Also, overall aren't most carb sources aside from veggiesand some fruits causing more ROS that can result in damage and accelerate ageing. Are you aware of studies comparing ROS formation from a low carb diet vs. a low fat diet? Not my area of expertise, ask someone who cares. Look, I don't want you to misunderstand me, there's zero doubt in my mind that the OVErconsumption of OVERLy refined foods is doing more harm than good. I simply don't feel it's automatically necessary to jump to the otehr extreme to achieve what needs to achieved. Is it necessary in some cases? Absolutely? All of them? I don't think so. Lyle |
#228
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Low carb diets
Seth Breidbart wrote:
In article , Lyle McDonald wrote: I can also report empirically the feedback I've gotten. This was from a few years ago (on the lowcarb-l list) from folks comparing things like Isocaloric (33/33/33) diets to Bodyopus (CKD) types of diets. These were motivated bodybuilder/athletic types who are known for being anal compulsive about their diet and who were using similar protein inakes and caloric deficits (and weight training and the rest). At *most*, the variance in fat loss/LBM loss was ~3 lbs over 12 weeks. That is, they might report 3 lbs more fat lost and 3 lbs more LBM maintained over that period. Adding: a. Even then, the effects weren't consistent. Some folks did better on CKD's, some folks better on Isocaloric (and lost more muscle on the CKD). Meaning there was no consistent pattern with one diet being absolutely superior. . . . b. 3 lbs is within measurement error (sorry, this is the cynic in me speaking). Hell, it's within the error of glycogen and water balance. c. 3 lbs of fat vs LBM is hardly relevant for the majority of dieters. For an athlete or bodybuilder, yeah, it matters. But without a consistently superior diet or a way to know who will be ideally suited for one or the other, the above is kind of meaningless (at this point, there's no good way to apply it). A consistent difference of 3 lbs would be worthwhile. If the maximum difference measured is 3 lbs, and some measurements had the opposite sign, then I'd guess the average is unde 1 lb. That's well within the measurement error noise. You'll have to translate this into retard for me cuz I have no clue what you're saying. Lyle |
#229
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Low carb diets
Tim Josling wrote:
roger wrote: ... I think it is pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of people fare better on a diet that is balanced between carbs, protein and fat with most of the carbs coming from vegetables, fruits and unprocessed grains (brown rice, whole wheat bread/pasta, etc) and avoiding the processed carbs. Pasta is a highly processed food, as is bread. Wholemeal bread is almost as glycemic as white bread. don't try to introduce facts into roger the retard's nonsense. ... It is usually the case that extremes are not good for you. So that eliminates the extremely low fat, extremely low carb diets. First you have to show what 'extreme' means. Otherwise it is just name calling. The real question is what is optimal. Optimal depends on the needs of the individual, simple as that. Lyle |
#230
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Low carb diets
In article , Lyle McDonald
wrote: pete wrote: The simple fact is that most people stick with most behavioral changes beyodn a few weeks. Glad I'm not "most people" as I enter year five of keeping off the weight, lifting and doing Pilates. -- Diva ******** Completing 4 years of maintenance |
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