For Dogman

In article ,
Doug Freyburger wrote:

Dogman wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Dogman wrote:

And our debt keeps increasing because the American people can't yet
get it across to our elected representatives that we want them to STOP
THE SPENDING! PERIOD!

Any politician who votes for greatly reduced spending votes for reduced
services and thus is not reelected. It's a feedback loop that across
history all democracies have fallen into.

One of the historical feratures of democracies (of all types including
republics) is that they last while fiscally responsible people are in
charge. Eventually the masses figure out that they can vote themselves
the public treasury and the democracy goes broke. This is currently
happening world wide and for any one democracy it's a matter of time.
Some are in less trouble than others but done are doing well.

You bet, Doug. Those chickens are finally coming home to roost.

Greece takes down the Euro. UK smiles at the wisdom of not joining the
Euro. Then the UK, US and pretty much everyone else fails as well.

But ... Plenty of countries have had their currency fail in history.
They recovered. Argentina is doing fine. It will be rough but the
currency failure won't be the end. Just another cycle.

Argentina is doing fine because it got away from the World Bank which
imposed neo-liberal economics on the country, just as the Koch Brothers,
the Tea Party, and the twisted followers of Ayn Rand are trying to
impose it on the U.S. It is a transfer of wealth from the middle class
and the poor to the obscenely rich.

In the free market, everything is commodified. If you don't have your
own mansion, it is your fault. There is no more common good, just greed.

When this was America it was E pluribus unum,

not in God we trust.

Wall St. got bailed out and gave themselves bonuse with public money.
Fossile fuel companies don't care about the environment, except in
public service announcements. Chemical fertilizers are killing the soil,
and creating greenhouse gases. Extracting all of the oil sand in Canada
will kill the planet, but it will raise this quarter's profits.

THere is a dime's worth of difference between the RNC and the DNC. They
do their "Punch and Judy" show, but they are just the left and right
hand of the puppeteer. They've been bought by the corporations who make
the money for the rich.

The low carb tie in is very loose. The poor must eat high carb diets
because they can't afford the better quality low carb meat and vegitable
based diet. Economic decline means more poor people in developed
countries and more starving in undeveloped countries. Eventually world
trade and off shoring well put an end to hunger but it will take a few
more decade long economic up and down cycles. Until then we'll have
people who eat cattle fodder because they can't afford to feed it to the
livestock.

I'm not sure that I totally agree with that, Doug. Yes, eating
low-carb can be expensive, but it doesn't really have to be, if the
respective governments would get out of the way. What were once
subsistence farmers (and doing rather well)

More and more land gets dedicated to grain. Other crops are not as
calorie efficient. It's why civilization started in the first place and
as our population grows that same fact pushes grain even more. It will
take time for the value of other crops to dominate.

are now often forced to
move to the cities (to make a living) and live off the government or
international aide. That's not by accident either, because government
wants its citizens dependent on the them for their existence. What
better way could a government want as a way to control its people?

Have you read the theory of "water monopolies"? That's a more effective
way. Not a "better" way.
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it's not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That's hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don't get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

On 18/10/2011 11:40 PM, wrote:
On Oct 17, 2:58 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 00:36:07 +1000,
wrote:





On 17/10/2011 11:13 PM, wrote:
On Oct 16, 12:41 pm, wrote:
Show us where the entire Congress said the USA is responsible
for the financial problems in Ireland, Greece or the rest of Europe.
You really don't know much about govt, do you. You might find
a loon or two out of 500 that said that, but we haven't even seen
that from you, let alone the entire Congress.

Your president is lying?

Show us where Obama said the USA is responsible for
the world's financial problems in places like Ireland and
Greece.

Ever heard of newspapers, news reports, magazines, media? Ever read the
transcripts from congress, upper and lower?

Apparently you've never read newspapers or transcripts from
Congress, because if you did, you'd know there is no upper
and lower.

No? What is the senate?

It's one of two CO-EQUAL houses, moron. Neither is higher than the
other.

Exactly.

No, not exactly, not at all. In modern times upper and lower are nothing
to do with equality. I suppose that you think that left and right in a
political sense has to do geographic direction. You really are
politically naive.

Again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_senate

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_house

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_house


We keep telling you that you should stick to what you know (whatever
the hell that might be), than to things you obviously know nothing
about, but you just won't listen.

In other words, you have no such economist.

How about the Financial Times? Here is their headline from a couple of
days ago. Just one of a great many similar in International and local
media over the past few months.

"AMERICA MUST MANAGE ITS DECLINE"...

(It's about learning to bow out gracefully.)


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/0c73f...#axzz1bGuadBWB

You poor little naive dimwits, the whole world is watching America's
decline, the only thing that isn't certain is just how many more years
before the inevitable total collapse. I think about eight to eleven.

Yes, it would be possible to reverse the slide, but as people, such as
yourselves, (you and the dogboy among others) refuse to face reality,
that is unlikely to happen. You have to recognise a problem before you
can fix it and people like you spend all your energy blaming the wrong
things for your problems. Your current Government clearly can't fix
things, and there is not one person in the running who is likely to do
better. Even Sarah Palin couldn't do worse than Obama has done.
(At least she has better legs and cleavage than Obama - look better on a
postage stamp.)

On Oct 19, 4:55*pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*Doug Freyburger wrote:





Dogman wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Dogman wrote:

And our debt keeps increasing because the American people can't yet
get it across to our elected representatives that we want them to STOP
THE SPENDING! PERIOD!

Any politician who votes for greatly reduced spending votes for reduced
services and thus is not reelected. *It's a feedback loop that across
history all democracies have fallen into.

One of the historical feratures of democracies (of all types including
republics) is that they last while fiscally responsible people are in
charge. *Eventually the masses figure out that they can vote themselves
the public treasury and the democracy goes broke. *This is currently
happening world wide and for any one democracy it's a matter of time.
Some are in less trouble than others but done are doing well.

You bet, Doug. *Those chickens are finally coming home to roost.

Greece takes down the Euro. *UK smiles at the wisdom of not joining the
Euro. *Then the UK, US and pretty much everyone else fails as well.

But ... *Plenty of countries have had their currency fail in history.
They recovered. *Argentina is doing fine. *It will be rough but the
currency failure won't be the end. *Just another cycle.

Argentina is doing fine because it got away from the World Bank which
imposed neo-liberal economics on the country, just as the Koch Brothers,
the Tea Party, and the twisted followers of Ayn Rand are trying to
impose it on the U.S. It is a transfer of wealth from the middle class
and the poor to the obscenely rich.

In the free market, everything is commodified. If you don't have your
own mansion, it is your fault. There is no more common good, just greed.

When this was America it was E pluribus unum,

not in God we trust.

Wall St. got bailed out and gave themselves bonuse with public money.

The only problem with that is that the money lent to Wall Street
has been almost all paid back. So, those bonuses didn't come
out of the taxpayer's pockets. Will you ever learn? Let me help
you out. For a good example of public money that was indeed
a handout never to be paid back and that added to the
federal debt you need look at the Obama
stimulus of $830bil. Or the new one he's proposing for $500bil.




Fossile fuel companies don't care about the environment, except in
public service announcements. Chemical fertilizers are killing the soil,
and creating greenhouse gases. Extracting all of the oil sand in Canada
will kill the planet, but it will raise this quarter's profits.

Sounds like it's time for you to join the hippies sleeping in
the park at Wall Street.

On Oct 19, 7:24*pm, Elmo wrote:
On 18/10/2011 11:40 PM, wrote:





On Oct 17, 2:58 pm, *wrote:
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 00:36:07 +1000,
wrote:

On 17/10/2011 11:13 PM, wrote:
On Oct 16, 12:41 pm, * *wrote:
Show us where the entire Congress said the USA is responsible
for the financial problems in Ireland, Greece or the rest of Europe.
* * You really don't know much about govt, do you. *You might find
a loon or two out of 500 that said that, but we haven't even seen
that from you, let alone the entire Congress.

Your president is lying?

Show us where Obama said the USA is responsible for
the world's financial problems in places like Ireland and
Greece.

Ever heard of newspapers, news reports, magazines, media? Ever read the
transcripts from congress, upper and lower?

Apparently you've never read newspapers or transcripts from
Congress, because if you did, you'd know there is no upper
and lower.

No? What is the senate?

It's one of two CO-EQUAL houses, moron. Neither is higher than the
other.

Exactly.

No, not exactly, not at all. In modern times upper and lower are nothing
to do with equality. I suppose that you think that left and right in a
political sense has to do geographic direction. You really are
politically naive.

Again: *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_senate

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_house

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_house



We keep telling you that you should stick to what you know (whatever
the hell that might be), than to things you obviously know nothing
about, but you just won't listen.

In other words, you have no such economist.

How about the Financial Times? Here is their headline from a couple of
days ago. Just one of a great many similar in International and local
media over the past few months.

Last time I checked the Financial Times is not an economist.
And not being a subcriber, I can't read the link. And I'm 99.9%
confident that nowhere in that article will it say that the USA
is responsible for what's going on in Greece or Ireland. In other
words, you still have no economist.




"AMERICA MUST MANAGE ITS DECLINE"...

(It's about learning to bow out gracefully.)

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/0c73f...00144feab49a.h...

You *poor little naive dimwits, the whole world is watching America's
decline, the only thing that isn't certain is just how many more years
before the inevitable total collapse. I think about eight to eleven.

Why gee, according to you the collapse had already occured.
Now, even according to you, we have 8 to 11 years to fix
things. Maybe there is hope for you yet.



Yes, it would be possible to reverse the slide, but as people, such as
yourselves, (you and the dogboy among others) refuse to face reality,
that is unlikely to happen. You have to recognise a problem before you
can fix it and people like you spend all your energy blaming the wrong
things for your problems. Your current Government clearly can't fix
things,

That's why we'll have a new one starting in 2013. The first step is
getting a president who is positive to business, a leader, and not
a socialist hell bent on ever increasing spending. The sad thing
is that some of the easiest things to start fixing the economy he
could do with a phone call.

He could pick up the phone and fire the National LAbor Relations
Board, which is blocking Boeing from opening a plant in South
Carolina to build parts for the 787. The reason? Why a union
in WA claims they built that new plant in SC because of a
strike years ago. That despite the fact that Boeing has added
union jobs since then. Just like Reagan fired the air traffic
controllers, Obama needs to do is fire the NLRB. Then
hold a press conference saying that he's not going to let
govt bureaucrats stand in the way of jobs and the American
economy. The market would go up 300 points and so
would his approval. But being a committed socialist,
Obama would rather keep playing the class warfare,
anti-business card.

In article
,
" wrote:

On Oct 19, 4:55*pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*Doug Freyburger wrote:





Dogman wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Dogman wrote:

And our debt keeps increasing because the American people can't yet
get it across to our elected representatives that we want them to STOP
THE SPENDING! PERIOD!

Any politician who votes for greatly reduced spending votes for reduced
services and thus is not reelected. *It's a feedback loop that across
history all democracies have fallen into.

One of the historical feratures of democracies (of all types including
republics) is that they last while fiscally responsible people are in
charge. *Eventually the masses figure out that they can vote themselves
the public treasury and the democracy goes broke. *This is currently
happening world wide and for any one democracy it's a matter of time.
Some are in less trouble than others but done are doing well.

You bet, Doug. *Those chickens are finally coming home to roost.

Greece takes down the Euro. *UK smiles at the wisdom of not joining the
Euro. *Then the UK, US and pretty much everyone else fails as well.

But ... *Plenty of countries have had their currency fail in history.
They recovered. *Argentina is doing fine. *It will be rough but the
currency failure won't be the end. *Just another cycle.

Argentina is doing fine because it got away from the World Bank which
imposed neo-liberal economics on the country, just as the Koch Brothers,
the Tea Party, and the twisted followers of Ayn Rand are trying to
impose it on the U.S. It is a transfer of wealth from the middle class
and the poor to the obscenely rich.

In the free market, everything is commodified. If you don't have your
own mansion, it is your fault. There is no more common good, just greed.

When this was America it was E pluribus unum,

not in God we trust.

Wall St. got bailed out and gave themselves bonuse with public money.

The only problem with that is that the money lent to Wall Street
has been almost all paid back. So, those bonuses didn't come
out of the taxpayer's pockets. Will you ever learn? Let me help
you out. For a good example of public money that was indeed
a handout never to be paid back and that added to the
federal debt you need look at the Obama
stimulus of $830bil. Or the new one he's proposing for $500bil.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news...s_fits_in/inde
x.htm
The $8 trillion bailout
Are you sure you want to go there?

A.I.G. credit default swaps.




Fossile fuel companies don't care about the environment, except in
public service announcements. Chemical fertilizers are killing the soil,
and creating greenhouse gases. Extracting all of the oil sand in Canada
will kill the planet, but it will raise this quarter's profits.

Sounds like it's time for you to join the hippies sleeping in
the park at Wall Street.
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

On Oct 20, 1:45*am, Billy wrote:
In article
,





" wrote:
On Oct 19, 4:55*pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*Doug Freyburger wrote:

Dogman wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Dogman wrote:

And our debt keeps increasing because the American people can't yet
get it across to our elected representatives that we want them to STOP
THE SPENDING! PERIOD!

Any politician who votes for greatly reduced spending votes for reduced
services and thus is not reelected. *It's a feedback loop that across
history all democracies have fallen into.

One of the historical feratures of democracies (of all types including
republics) is that they last while fiscally responsible people are in
charge. *Eventually the masses figure out that they can vote themselves
the public treasury and the democracy goes broke. *This is currently
happening world wide and for any one democracy it's a matter of time.
Some are in less trouble than others but done are doing well.

You bet, Doug. *Those chickens are finally coming home to roost..

Greece takes down the Euro. *UK smiles at the wisdom of not joining the
Euro. *Then the UK, US and pretty much everyone else fails as well.

But ... *Plenty of countries have had their currency fail in history.
They recovered. *Argentina is doing fine. *It will be rough but the
currency failure won't be the end. *Just another cycle.

Argentina is doing fine because it got away from the World Bank which
imposed neo-liberal economics on the country, just as the Koch Brothers,
the Tea Party, and the twisted followers of Ayn Rand are trying to
impose it on the U.S. It is a transfer of wealth from the middle class
and the poor to the obscenely rich.

In the free market, everything is commodified. If you don't have your
own mansion, it is your fault. There is no more common good, just greed.

When this was America it was E pluribus unum,

not in God we trust.

Wall St. got bailed out and gave themselves bonuse with public money.

The only problem with that is that the money lent to Wall Street
has been almost all paid back. *So, those bonuses didn't come
out of the taxpayer's pockets. *Will you ever learn? *Let me help
you out. *For a good example of public money that was indeed
a handout never to be paid back and that added to the
federal debt you need look at the Obama
stimulus of $830bil. *Or the new one he's proposing for $500bil.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news...s_fits_in/inde
x.htm
The $8 trillion bailout
Are you sure you want to go there?

Yes, I want to go there and it's clear you've never been.
Just like all the rest of your one line crap, it's just that, crap.
It's now the final months of 2011, not
2009 when that CNN article was writeen.
The money the govt lent to Wall Street has been almost all
paid back:

The banks have paid it ALL back:

Bank of America $45bil lent, all repaid
Citigroup $45bil lent, all repaid
JP Morgan Chase $25bil lent, all repaid
Wells Fargo, $25bil lent, all repaid
Goldman Sachs $10bil, all repaid
Morgan Stanley, $10bil, all repaid

There is a long list of other banks with smaller
amounts, all repaid as well. The Treasury
has made a profit of 10% on the above
loans. You do understand the difference
between a loan and a handout, don't you?
So, clearly all the salaries and
bonuses at those firms did not come from
the taxpayers pockets as you claim.

Then we have AIG which was lent $68bil,
$17bil of that has been returned so far, with
all indications that it will all be returned.

In short, the last estimate I've seen for ALL
of TARP, is that of the $700bil initial amount,
only about $70bil is still considered at risk.
And when all the investments are sold off,
eg GM stock, there is a reasonable chance
that the govt will have a net profit.

Yet, you one line libs, long on emotion, short
of any facts, continue to harp on about it as
if it were in fact an actual handout to all of
Wall Street. As I said, for examples of that,
you need look no further than Obama's
$830mil stimulus one, not a dime of which
was ever intended to be paid back. Or his
new proposed $500bil one, which is more pure
spending.

In article
,
" wrote:

On Oct 20, 1:45*am, Billy wrote:
In article
,





" wrote:
On Oct 19, 4:55*pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*Doug Freyburger wrote:

Dogman wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Dogman wrote:

And our debt keeps increasing because the American people can't
yet
get it across to our elected representatives that we want them to
STOP
THE SPENDING! PERIOD!

Any politician who votes for greatly reduced spending votes for
reduced
services and thus is not reelected. *It's a feedback loop that across
history all democracies have fallen into.

One of the historical feratures of democracies (of all types
including
republics) is that they last while fiscally responsible people are
in
charge. *Eventually the masses figure out that they can vote
themselves
the public treasury and the democracy goes broke. *This is
currently
happening world wide and for any one democracy it's a matter of
time.
Some are in less trouble than others but done are doing well.

You bet, Doug. *Those chickens are finally coming home to roost.

Greece takes down the Euro. *UK smiles at the wisdom of not joining
the
Euro. *Then the UK, US and pretty much everyone else fails as well.

But ... *Plenty of countries have had their currency fail in history.
They recovered. *Argentina is doing fine. *It will be rough but the
currency failure won't be the end. *Just another cycle.

Argentina is doing fine because it got away from the World Bank which
imposed neo-liberal economics on the country, just as the Koch
Brothers,
the Tea Party, and the twisted followers of Ayn Rand are trying to
impose it on the U.S. It is a transfer of wealth from the middle class
and the poor to the obscenely rich.

In the free market, everything is commodified. If you don't have your
own mansion, it is your fault. There is no more common good, just
greed.

When this was America it was E pluribus unum,

not in God we trust.

Wall St. got bailed out and gave themselves bonuse with public money.

The only problem with that is that the money lent to Wall Street
has been almost all paid back. *So, those bonuses didn't come
out of the taxpayer's pockets. *Will you ever learn? *Let me help
you out. *For a good example of public money that was indeed
a handout never to be paid back and that added to the
federal debt you need look at the Obama
stimulus of $830bil. *Or the new one he's proposing for $500bil.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news...s_fits_in/inde
x.htm
The $8 trillion bailout
Are you sure you want to go there?

Yes, I want to go there and it's clear you've never been.
Just like all the rest of your one line crap, it's just that, crap.
It's now the final months of 2011, not
2009 when that CNN article was writeen.
The money the govt lent to Wall Street has been almost all
paid back:

The banks have paid it ALL back:

Bank of America $45bil lent, all repaid
Citigroup $45bil lent, all repaid
JP Morgan Chase $25bil lent, all repaid
Wells Fargo, $25bil lent, all repaid
Goldman Sachs $10bil, all repaid
Morgan Stanley, $10bil, all repaid

There is a long list of other banks with smaller
amounts, all repaid as well. The Treasury
has made a profit of 10% on the above
loans. You do understand the difference
between a loan and a handout, don't you?
So, clearly all the salaries and
bonuses at those firms did not come from
the taxpayers pockets as you claim.

Then we have AIG which was lent $68bil,
$17bil of that has been returned so far, with
all indications that it will all be returned.

In short, the last estimate I've seen for ALL
of TARP, is that of the $700bil initial amount,
only about $70bil is still considered at risk.
And when all the investments are sold off,
eg GM stock, there is a reasonable chance
that the govt will have a net profit.

Yet, you one line libs, long on emotion, short
of any facts, continue to harp on about it as
if it were in fact an actual handout to all of
Wall Street. As I said, for examples of that,
you need look no further than Obama's
$830mil stimulus one, not a dime of which
was ever intended to be paid back. Or his
new proposed $500bil one, which is more pure
spending.

Cute, you address the loans, but don't say a thing about the trillion$
in toxic assets purchased at full face value, when everyone knew that
they were, much like yourself, crap.

What part of
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...the-economic-c
risis-theyre-history/2011/06/27/AG2nK4pH_story.html
"$9 trillion in household wealth has vanished.", don't you understand?

Then there is
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/opinion/28wed1.html
The Securities and Exchange Commission has accused Goldman of defrauding
clients by selling them a complex instrument without telling them it was
designed so another client could bet against it. Testifying before the
Senate subcommittee on investigations, Goldman executives denied
withholding information. They insisted there was nothing wrong with
selling mortgage-backed products while placing bets against them.

They called it ³risk management.² Most people call it stacking the deck.
---

Others have said that it is analogous to selling a car with bad brakes,
then taking out a life insurance policy on the purchaser.


Back, before America went to Hell, our motto was E pluribus unum. It
worked for over 2 centuries. Now it's get the government out of the
economy (no regulations), everybody for himself, and greed is good.

How's that working out for you America?
---

Final note: I'm working 60+ hours/week, but my wife went to the local
avatar of "Occupied", and said it looked like a cross-section of America.
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article...019644/1350?Ti
tle=Over-2-500-turn-out-for-Occupy-Santa-Rosa-protest

I'll be there soon.
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

On Oct 21, 11:40*am, Billy wrote:
In article
,





" wrote:
On Oct 20, 1:45*am, Billy wrote:
In article
,

" wrote:
On Oct 19, 4:55*pm, Billy wrote:
In article ,
*Doug Freyburger wrote:

Dogman wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Dogman wrote:

And our debt keeps increasing because the American people can't
yet
get it across to our elected representatives that we want them to
STOP
THE SPENDING! PERIOD!

Any politician who votes for greatly reduced spending votes for
reduced
services and thus is not reelected. *It's a feedback loop that across
history all democracies have fallen into.

One of the historical feratures of democracies (of all types
including
republics) is that they last while fiscally responsible people are
in
charge. *Eventually the masses figure out that they can vote
themselves
the public treasury and the democracy goes broke. *This is
currently
happening world wide and for any one democracy it's a matter of
time.
Some are in less trouble than others but done are doing well.

You bet, Doug. *Those chickens are finally coming home to roost.

Greece takes down the Euro. *UK smiles at the wisdom of not joining
the
Euro. *Then the UK, US and pretty much everyone else fails as well.

But ... *Plenty of countries have had their currency fail in history.
They recovered. *Argentina is doing fine. *It will be rough but the
currency failure won't be the end. *Just another cycle.

Argentina is doing fine because it got away from the World Bank which
imposed neo-liberal economics on the country, just as the Koch
Brothers,
the Tea Party, and the twisted followers of Ayn Rand are trying to
impose it on the U.S. It is a transfer of wealth from the middle class
and the poor to the obscenely rich.

In the free market, everything is commodified. If you don't have your
own mansion, it is your fault. There is no more common good, just
greed.

When this was America it was E pluribus unum,

not in God we trust.

Wall St. got bailed out and gave themselves bonuse with public money.

The only problem with that is that the money lent to Wall Street
has been almost all paid back. *So, those bonuses didn't come
out of the taxpayer's pockets. *Will you ever learn? *Let me help
you out. *For a good example of public money that was indeed
a handout never to be paid back and that added to the
federal debt you need look at the Obama
stimulus of $830bil. *Or the new one he's proposing for $500bil.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news...s_fits_in/inde
x.htm
The $8 trillion bailout
Are you sure you want to go there?

Yes, I want to go there and it's clear you've never been.
Just like all the rest of your one line crap, it's just that, crap.
*It's now the final months of 2011, not
2009 when that CNN article was writeen.
The money the govt lent to Wall Street has been almost all
paid back:

The banks have paid it ALL back:

Bank of America $45bil lent, all repaid
Citigroup *$45bil lent, all repaid
JP Morgan Chase $25bil lent, all repaid
Wells Fargo, $25bil lent, all repaid
Goldman Sachs $10bil, all repaid
Morgan Stanley, $10bil, all repaid

There is a long list of other banks with smaller
amounts, all repaid as well. *The Treasury
has made a profit of 10% on the above
loans. *You do understand the difference
between a loan and a handout, don't you?
So, clearly all the salaries and
bonuses at those firms did not come from
the taxpayers pockets as you claim.

Then we have AIG which was lent $68bil,
$17bil of that has been returned so far, with
all indications that it will all be returned.

In short, the last estimate I've seen for ALL
of TARP, is that of the $700bil initial amount,
only about $70bil is still considered at risk.
And when all the investments are sold off,
eg GM stock, there is a reasonable chance
that the govt will have a net profit.

Yet, you one line libs, long on emotion, short
of any facts, continue to harp on about it as
if it were in fact an actual handout to all of
Wall Street. *As I said, for examples of that,
you need look no further than Obama's
$830mil stimulus one, not a dime of which
was ever intended to be paid back. *Or his
new proposed $500bil one, which is more pure
spending.

Cute, you address the loans, but don't say a thing about the trillion$
in toxic assets purchased at full face value, when everyone knew that
they were, much like yourself, crap.

I'll leave it for others to judge who's full of crap. As usual,
you're
long on emotion and short on facts. Here's a summary of the
whole TARP program:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouble...Relief_Program

"Originally expected to cost the U.S. taxpayers as much as $300
billion,[1] by December 16, 2010, the Congressional Budget Office
(CBO) estimated the total cost would be $19 billion,[2] although
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner argued that the final cost would
be still lower.[3] This is significantly less than the taxpayers' cost
of the savings and loan crisis of the late 1980s."





What part of
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...the-economic-c
risis-theyre-history/2011/06/27/AG2nK4pH_story.html
"$9 trillion in household wealth has vanished.", don't you understand?

Sure, household wealth went down with declining home prices.
Everyone knows that, so what?



Then there is
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/opinion/28wed1.html
The Securities and Exchange Commission has accused Goldman of defrauding
clients by selling them a complex instrument without telling them it was
designed so another client could bet against it.

It may come as a surprise to you, but instruments designed so that
another client can bet against it have been around for hundreds of
years. Examples of them can be found on the futures exchanges
in NY and Chicago were they are publicly traded everyday. You
shouldn't be so quick to judge what you don't understand.




Testifying before the
Senate subcommittee on investigations, Goldman executives denied
withholding information. They insisted there was nothing wrong with
selling mortgage-backed products while placing bets against them.

And Goldman is right. Let's say I have IBM stock in my portfolio.
I think it's overvalued and headed down. So, I sell the stock and
at the same time by put options on IBM to make more money.
That's done every day and is perfectly legal. And don't have to
share my opinion of where IBM is headed or warn anyone.



They called it ³risk management.² Most people call it stacking the deck.
---


People like you, who don't understand securities.




Others have said that it is analogous to selling a car with bad brakes,
then taking out a life insurance policy on the purchaser.

No, it;s analogous to the IBM example above.




Back, before America went to Hell, our motto was E pluribus unum. It
worked for over 2 centuries. Now it's get the government out of the
economy (no regulations), everybody for himself, and greed is good.

We had more regulations in place in this country in 2008 than at
any time in history. Yet, the boom and bust occured, just like it
has throughout history. The odd thing is that some people like
you want Congress, which has an approval rating of 13%, to
come up with more regulations and for them to figure out how
businesses should be run.



How's that working out for you America?

Just like all the other booms/busts, well get through this one.


---

Final note: I'm working 60+ hours/week, but my wife went to the local
avatar of "Occupied", and said it looked like a cross-section of America.
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article...019644/1350?Ti
tle=Over-2-500-turn-out-for-Occupy-Santa-Rosa-protest

I'll be there soon.
--
- Billy

I'm sure you will be. And with your emotion and total disregard for
the facts, you'll fit right in. What exactly is their message again?
Oh, that's right, they don't have one. I've seen signs and the
hippies
interviewed. Among the gems:

End capitalism
Get rid of the FED
Monsanto is changing your DNA
The Jews control the economy
All the billionaires in America are Jews
911 was an inside job
I don't want a $8 hour job....

Nice to see that life in the group hasn't changed while I have been
gone. This thread is entertaining.

Now they are trying to sell America, house by house. I suppose that some
will think that as the prices are so low that it might be a bargain, a
cheap home and a green card to go with it. Though I don't know what good
a green card will do in a country that has almost no work for its
existing citizens.

I like the bit about needing an armoured HumVee and a bullet-proof vest
to collect the rent.

http://tinyurl.com/3leq9oe

As for how well the US troops are regarded in Iraq, this is should make
it clear even to furiously determined fact evading recalcitrants like
dogboy.

http://tinyurl.com/3jjm457

"In recent months, Washington had been discussing with Iraqi leaders the
possibility of several thousand American troops remaining to continue
training Iraqi security forces.

Throughout the discussions, Iraqi leaders adamantly have refused to give
US troops immunity from prosecution in Iraqi courts, and the Americans
have refused to stay without it".

Yes, they love the US troops so much they want to arrest and prosecute
them once their military support has pulled out.

The America that I remember from when I was a child is nothing like the
current America. Sad.

On 20/10/2011 8:20 PM, wrote:


Wall St. got bailed out and gave themselves bonuse with public money.

The only problem with that is that the money lent to Wall Street
has been almost all paid back. So, those bonuses didn't come
out of the taxpayer's pockets. Will you ever learn? Let me help
you out. For a good example of public money that was indeed
a handout never to be paid back and that added to the
federal debt you need look at the Obama
stimulus of $830bil. Or the new one he's proposing for $500bil.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news...s_fits_in/inde
x.htm
The $8 trillion bailout
Are you sure you want to go there?

Yes, I want to go there and it's clear you've never been.
Just like all the rest of your one line crap, it's just that, crap.
It's now the final months of 2011, not
2009 when that CNN article was writeen.
The money the govt lent to Wall Street has been almost all
paid back:

The banks have paid it ALL back:

Bank of America $45bil lent, all repaid
Citigroup $45bil lent, all repaid
JP Morgan Chase $25bil lent, all repaid
Wells Fargo, $25bil lent, all repaid
Goldman Sachs $10bil, all repaid
Morgan Stanley, $10bil, all repaid

There is a long list of other banks with smaller
amounts, all repaid as well. The Treasury
has made a profit of 10% on the above
loans. You do understand the difference
between a loan and a handout, don't you?
So, clearly all the salaries and
bonuses at those firms did not come from
the taxpayers pockets as you claim.

Then we have AIG which was lent $68bil,
$17bil of that has been returned so far, with
all indications that it will all be returned.

In short, the last estimate I've seen for ALL
of TARP, is that of the $700bil initial amount,
only about $70bil is still considered at risk.
And when all the investments are sold off,
eg GM stock, there is a reasonable chance
that the govt will have a net profit.

Yet, you one line libs, long on emotion, short
of any facts, continue to harp on about it as
if it were in fact an actual handout to all of
Wall Street. As I said, for examples of that,
you need look no further than Obama's
$830mil stimulus one, not a dime of which
was ever intended to be paid back. Or his
new proposed $500bil one, which is more pure
spending.



Do you think any of it worked - long term?

http://tinyurl.com/6d2pbh5