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Are you taking your vitamins?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 4th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Patricia Heil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Are you taking your vitamins?


Haven't taken vitamins for years. They're a waste of money even if you take
them as directed on the label, particularly if you're eating right. It has
been known for about 15 years now that anti-oxidants don't work as well in
supplements compared to getting them in food. Anti-oxidants also all have
toxicity, even vitamin C. Check the DRIs.

http://www.iom.edu/Object.File/Master/7/296/0.pdf

"Ignoramus32242" wrote in message
...
If so, you might find this article interesting...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3703498.stm

Vitamins pills do not stop cancer
Vitamin supplements do nothing to prevent gut cancers and may shorten
life expectancy, research suggests.

A review of 14 trials involving more than 170,000 people found
antioxidant vitamins, like vitamin E, offered no protection against
these cancers.

People taking some supplements died prematurely, the European
researchers said in the Lancet.

Cancer Research UK cautioned the findings were preliminary and did not
offer convincing proof of hazard.

We could not find evidence that antioxidant supplements can prevent
gastrointestinal cancers.
Lead researcher Dr Goran Bjelakovic

The study authors themselves emphasised that they had only studied the
effect of certain antioxidant supplements.

"The results should not be translated to the potential effects of
vegetables and fruit, which are rich in antioxidants and other
substances," they said.

Antioxidants are thought to stop cancer by preventing or slowing
damage caused by certain oxygen compounds.

Dr Goran Bjelakovic and his colleagues, working at the Copenhagen
Trial Unit in Denmark, looked at the supplements beta-carotene,
vitamins A, C and E and selenium as different combinations or
separately.

They compared the rate of gastrointestinal cancers, such as stomach,
liver or bowel cancer, among people taking the antioxidant supplements
and people taking fake tablets with no active ingredient.

Other than selenium, regular use of antioxidant supplements did not
prevent gastrointestinal (GI) cancers.

In half of the 14 trials reviewed, vitamin tablets appeared to shorten
life expectancy.

Food better than pills

The combination of beta-carotene and vitamin A or vitamin E increased
risk of premature death by 30% and 10%, respectively.

Dr Bjelakovic said: "We could not find evidence that antioxidant
supplements can prevent gastrointestinal cancers.

There are no shortcuts to prevent bowel cancer. If you're taking
vitamins to protect yourself against the disease, you're wasting your
money.
Dr Richard Sullivan of Cancer Research UK

"On the contrary, they seem to increase overall mortality."

He said the potential merits of taking selenium to prevent GI cancers
should be further investigated.

Dr Richard Sullivan of Cancer Research UK said the research could have
been biased because many of the people in the study were smokers, who
have a higher death risk anyway.

"There are no shortcuts to prevent bowel cancer. If you're taking
vitamins to protect yourself against the disease, you're wasting your
money.

"The best way to lower the risk is to eat a healthy diet and not
smoke."

He said the study added to the evidence that trials into the benefits
of selenium are warranted.

'Scary speculation'

"There is currently a study of the protective effects of selenium in
prostate cancer in the US, but further research is needed into the
wider role of selenium."

Selenium is found in nuts, white fish, liver and kidney, shellfish,
cereals, bread and dairy products.

Douglas Altman from Cancer Research UK told the Lancet in an
editorial: "If their findings are correct, 9,000 out of every million
users would die prematurely as a result."

He said this was a "scary speculation" given the vast quantities of
vitamin supplements used.

He said more research was needed and described the study as "work in
progress" that offered no convincing proof of hazard.

Martin Ledwick from CancerBACUP said: "Further investigation is needed
into the effects of vitamin supplements.

"In the meantime, it's probably sensible to avoid taking very large
doses of vitamin supplements and to try to get the necessary vitamins
from eating five or more portions of fruit and vegetables every day."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...th/3703498.stm

Published: 2004/10/01 03:36:03 GMT

BBC MMIV



  #2  
Old October 4th, 2004, 05:53 PM
Dally
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Patricia Heil wrote:
Haven't taken vitamins for years. They're a waste of money even if you take
them as directed on the label, particularly if you're eating right. It has
been known for about 15 years now that anti-oxidants don't work as well in
supplements compared to getting them in food. Anti-oxidants also all have
toxicity, even vitamin C. Check the DRIs.


So, Igor and Patty are against taking vitamins. I could draw my own
conclusions based on just that!

Dally


  #3  
Old October 4th, 2004, 06:18 PM
Dally
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ignoramus32242 wrote:

In article , Dally wrote:

Patricia Heil wrote:

Haven't taken vitamins for years. They're a waste of money even if you take
them as directed on the label, particularly if you're eating right. It has
been known for about 15 years now that anti-oxidants don't work as well in
supplements compared to getting them in food. Anti-oxidants also all have
toxicity, even vitamin C. Check the DRIs.


So, Igor and Patty are against taking vitamins. I could draw my own
conclusions based on just that!



What is your opinion regarding that article? Have you read it?


Yes. Vitamins didn't help a specific kind of rare cancer that comes on
acutely and quickly kills you.

It might even hurt you if you're taxing your digestive system at a time
when your digestive system is already under attack.

One datum, Igor. You have to add it to the entire scope of risks and
benefits. Nutrition is important for health. To say "eat five servings
of fruits and vegetables" and leave it smugly like that is a copout.

I just saw a new brand of sparkling fruit juice. It says on the bottle
that it counts as a serving of fruit. It also says it's 100% juice. I
was given five sample bottles. I tried them and they were really sweet.
I looked closer and all the flavors - no matter what sort of fruit
flavor it is, have concentrated white grape juice as the primary
ingredient (i.e., SUGAR). It's a 12 ounce bottle with 150 calories, 37
grams of sugar. And "it counts as a serving of fruit."

Nutritional supplements help across the board. Folic acid supplements
prevent spina bifada. Fish oil supplements help my skin. Calcium
supplements help protect against osteoporosis. Selenium has some
possible protection against alzheimers. Niacin lowers LDL and total
cholesterol. Glucosamin/chondroitin helps my joints ache less.

Are you just trolling again?

Dally

  #4  
Old October 4th, 2004, 11:25 PM
shevek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Patricia Heil" wrote in message link.net...
Haven't taken vitamins for years. They're a waste of money even if you take
them as directed on the label, particularly if you're eating right. It has
been known for about 15 years now that anti-oxidants don't work as well in
supplements compared to getting them in food. Anti-oxidants also all have
toxicity, even vitamin C. Check the DRIs.



Linus Pauling recommended 20gms of C a day, lets see.. 32000% of rda?

I'd hate to think of what you think of as "eating right"..

Let me guess- toxic factory meat daily, and mineral poor midwestern
processed wheat as a staple, moderated with pesticide laden fruits and
hydrogenated oils?

Although of course you do have a point about them being better in
food, and also that label directions often shouldn't be followed.
  #5  
Old October 4th, 2004, 11:59 PM
Carol Frilegh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Ignoramus32242
wrote:

In article , shevek wrote:
"Patricia Heil" wrote in message
link.net...
Haven't taken vitamins for years. They're a waste of money even if you
take
them as directed on the label, particularly if you're eating right. It
has
been known for about 15 years now that anti-oxidants don't work as well in
supplements compared to getting them in food. Anti-oxidants also all have
toxicity, even vitamin C. Check the DRIs.



Linus Pauling recommended 20gms of C a day, lets see.. 32000% of rda?

I'd hate to think of what you think of as "eating right"..

Let me guess- toxic factory meat daily, and mineral poor midwestern
processed wheat as a staple, moderated with pesticide laden fruits and
hydrogenated oils?


That does not, necessarily, make chemical vitamins useful. They may or
may not be useful, but your argument is not a proof that they are
beneficial. It is a good reminder to look at what we eat.

i

Although of course you do have a point about them being better in
food, and also that label directions often shouldn't be followed.


The thing is that if your digestion is faulty you only absorb a small
amount of mega vitamin supplements.

--
Diva
*****
The Best Man For The Job Is A Woman
  #6  
Old October 6th, 2004, 01:47 AM
shevek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Carol Frilegh wrote in message ...
In article , Ignoramus32242
wrote:

In article , shevek wrote:
"Patricia Heil" wrote in message
link.net...
Haven't taken vitamins for years. They're a waste of money even if you
take
them as directed on the label, particularly if you're eating right. It
has
been known for about 15 years now that anti-oxidants don't work as well in
supplements compared to getting them in food. Anti-oxidants also all have
toxicity, even vitamin C. Check the DRIs.



Linus Pauling recommended 20gms of C a day, lets see.. 32000% of rda?

I'd hate to think of what you think of as "eating right"..

Let me guess- toxic factory meat daily, and mineral poor midwestern
processed wheat as a staple, moderated with pesticide laden fruits and
hydrogenated oils?


That does not, necessarily, make chemical vitamins useful. They may or
may not be useful, but your argument is not a proof that they are
beneficial. It is a good reminder to look at what we eat.


Chemical vitamins.. is there any other kind? A better question is
what form.. calcium ascorbate? Rose hip ascorbate complexes? etc. ..

Yes, I conceed that Linus' word is not a proof. Unfortunately we must
rely on epidemiology and anecdotal evidence.. and every animal
(person) is different to make matters more complicated..



i

Although of course you do have a point about them being better in
food, and also that label directions often shouldn't be followed.


The thing is that if your digestion is faulty you only absorb a small
amount of mega vitamin supplements.


I'd rather have expensive urine than be mineral or viatmin deficient.

Cheers -
  #7  
Old March 16th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Dr_Dickie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ignoramus24806" wrote in message
...
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=7910550

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Daily vitamin E supplements do not prevent cancer,
strokes or heart attacks in older people with vascular disease or
diabetes, and may increase their risk of heart failure, a study said
on Tuesday.

Snip good infor for brevity
In an editorial commenting on the Canadian study and appearing in the
same journal on Tuesday, experts at the University of Washington said
the study "effectively closes the door on the prospect of a major
protective effect of long-term exposure to this supplement, taken in
moderately high dosage, against complications of atherosclerosis and
overall cancer incidence."

--
223/173.3/180


Haven't seen this study yet, so take this with a grain of salt--I'll try to
get to it this weekend. Most every study I have seen involved the
application of alpha tocopherol (actually d-L alpha what is commonly called
vitamin E).
Real vitamin E is a mixture of alpha, beta, and gamma tocopherols (actually
8 different isomers in all).
When given 10X the recommended dose of a single isomer it displaces the
others and can lead to some problems. This is being recognized and
corrected by some researchers, but the advance is slow.
See here http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss03/vitamine.html
for example.
As usual it is best to get you vitamins naturally, but if you must
supplement (especially with lipid soluble vitamins), keep the dose low and
for vitamin E, look for complete tocopherols. The vitamin industry with
MEGA doses is doing us no favor-IMHO. The Greeks had it right soooo long
ago. Everything is moderation.


--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'), but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov


  #8  
Old March 16th, 2005, 07:03 PM
Dr_Dickie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ignoramus1084" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:25:13 -0500, Dr_Dickie

wrote:

"Ignoramus24806" wrote in message
...

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=7910550

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Daily vitamin E supplements do not prevent cancer,
strokes or heart attacks in older people with vascular disease or
diabetes, and may increase their risk of heart failure, a study said
on Tuesday.

Snip good infor for brevity
In an editorial commenting on the Canadian study and appearing in the
same journal on Tuesday, experts at the University of Washington said
the study "effectively closes the door on the prospect of a major
protective effect of long-term exposure to this supplement, taken in
moderately high dosage, against complications of atherosclerosis and
overall cancer incidence."


Haven't seen this study yet, so take this with a grain of salt--I'll try

to
get to it this weekend. Most every study I have seen involved the
application of alpha tocopherol (actually d-L alpha what is commonly

called
vitamin E).
Real vitamin E is a mixture of alpha, beta, and gamma tocopherols

(actually
8 different isomers in all).
When given 10X the recommended dose of a single isomer it displaces the
others and can lead to some problems. This is being recognized and
corrected by some researchers, but the advance is slow.
See here http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss03/vitamine.html
for example.
As usual it is best to get you vitamins naturally, but if you must
supplement (especially with lipid soluble vitamins), keep the dose low

and
for vitamin E, look for complete tocopherols. The vitamin industry with
MEGA doses is doing us no favor-IMHO. The Greeks had it right soooo

long
ago. Everything is moderation.



Very interesting thoughts. If you find out anything further, I will
appreciate if you could share what you find. What interests me the
most is calcium supplementation. I keep changing my mind on whether I
should or should not do it. The reason why I am considering is it that
I take thyroid supplements, which tend to interfere with calcium
absorption, and do not eat much dairy, which probably means I do not
get even close to 100% of the calcium RDA. Long term thyroid
supplementation is known to reduce bone density. What I do get is
plenty of vitamin D. The real question is, is whether calcium
supplementation going to help me, in my specific circumstances.

--
223/173.3/180


Anything I have seen (not a lot) is that at worse, calcium supplementation
is benign. I do not get dairy at all either (not full lactose intolerant,
but I think I was on my way--Dad and Mom both are). I take calcium,
magnesium, zinc--(lower than RDA--about 1/3) and do that for leg cramps at
night--does it work? I really do not know, might help, might be placebo
effect, but no harm done.
Only thing I can add is stay away from soft drinks (colas mostly). Anything
with phosphoric acid, forms calcium phosphate. Calcium phosphate is Highly
insoluble and will not get picked up in the small intestine (where nutrients
are absorbed). I like the diet Sprite (citric acid is okay).
If I get some time, I'll hunt out info on calcium studies.
--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'), but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov


  #9  
Old March 16th, 2005, 07:04 PM
avid
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Diet Sprite ... thanks for that tip!


"Dr_Dickie" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus1084" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:25:13 -0500, Dr_Dickie

wrote:

"Ignoramus24806" wrote in

message
...

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=7910550

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Daily vitamin E supplements do not prevent

cancer,
strokes or heart attacks in older people with vascular disease or
diabetes, and may increase their risk of heart failure, a study said
on Tuesday.

Snip good infor for brevity
In an editorial commenting on the Canadian study and appearing in the
same journal on Tuesday, experts at the University of Washington said
the study "effectively closes the door on the prospect of a major
protective effect of long-term exposure to this supplement, taken in
moderately high dosage, against complications of atherosclerosis and
overall cancer incidence."


Haven't seen this study yet, so take this with a grain of salt--I'll

try
to
get to it this weekend. Most every study I have seen involved the
application of alpha tocopherol (actually d-L alpha what is commonly

called
vitamin E).
Real vitamin E is a mixture of alpha, beta, and gamma tocopherols

(actually
8 different isomers in all).
When given 10X the recommended dose of a single isomer it displaces

the
others and can lead to some problems. This is being recognized and
corrected by some researchers, but the advance is slow.
See here http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss03/vitamine.html
for example.
As usual it is best to get you vitamins naturally, but if you must
supplement (especially with lipid soluble vitamins), keep the dose low

and
for vitamin E, look for complete tocopherols. The vitamin industry

with
MEGA doses is doing us no favor-IMHO. The Greeks had it right soooo

long
ago. Everything is moderation.



Very interesting thoughts. If you find out anything further, I will
appreciate if you could share what you find. What interests me the
most is calcium supplementation. I keep changing my mind on whether I
should or should not do it. The reason why I am considering is it that
I take thyroid supplements, which tend to interfere with calcium
absorption, and do not eat much dairy, which probably means I do not
get even close to 100% of the calcium RDA. Long term thyroid
supplementation is known to reduce bone density. What I do get is
plenty of vitamin D. The real question is, is whether calcium
supplementation going to help me, in my specific circumstances.

--
223/173.3/180


Anything I have seen (not a lot) is that at worse, calcium supplementation
is benign. I do not get dairy at all either (not full lactose intolerant,
but I think I was on my way--Dad and Mom both are). I take calcium,
magnesium, zinc--(lower than RDA--about 1/3) and do that for leg cramps at
night--does it work? I really do not know, might help, might be placebo
effect, but no harm done.
Only thing I can add is stay away from soft drinks (colas mostly).

Anything
with phosphoric acid, forms calcium phosphate. Calcium phosphate is

Highly
insoluble and will not get picked up in the small intestine (where

nutrients
are absorbed). I like the diet Sprite (citric acid is okay).
If I get some time, I'll hunt out info on calcium studies.
--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'), but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov




  #10  
Old March 16th, 2005, 08:06 PM
Dr_Dickie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default




"Ignoramus1084" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:03:20 -0500, Dr_Dickie

wrote:
Anything I have seen (not a lot) is that at worse, calcium

supplementation
is benign.


I can say the same thing about everything that I have seen.

I do not get dairy at all either (not full lactose intolerant, but I
think I was on my way--Dad and Mom both are). I take calcium,
magnesium, zinc--(lower than RDA--about 1/3) and do that for leg
cramps at night--does it work? I really do not know, might help,
might be placebo effect, but no harm done. Only thing I can add is
stay away from soft drinks (colas mostly). Anything with phosphoric
acid, forms calcium phosphate. Calcium phosphate is Highly
insoluble and will not get picked up in the small intestine (where
nutrients are absorbed). I like the diet Sprite (citric acid is
okay). If I get some time, I'll hunt out info on calcium studies.


I avoid colas like the plague.
--
223/173.3/180


Good for you. Only other thing is the TYPE of exercise you get is very
important. Pounding (running) is better than just weight lifting (IIRC the
research I read). Of course, any better than none. Haven't looked into this
for years (my mom used to be deputy director at FDA for endocrinology, so
she used to keep me up to snuff on this stuff, but she retired years ago).
--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'), but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov


 




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