Type II diabetes, low carb (Atkins) and insulin levels..

Where did you get this very strange information? Citations please?

Aurora wrote:

Sure, sugar can be consumed on a diabetic diet. Peanuts can also be
consumed by those who are allergic to them, alcohol can be consumed by
alcoholics, heroin by junkies, etc. Just because sugar CAN be included
in a diabetic's diet without immediately killing them doesn't mean it
is a good idea.

Diabetes is basically a disease featuring errors metabolizing
carbohydrate. Whether you are a type 1 diabetic who simply is
incapable of producing adequate insulin, or whether you are a type 2
with severe insulin resistance (and therefore, a relative deficiency
of insulin even though hyperinsulinemia may exist), because of the
nature of your disease you CANNOT tolerate foods which are rapidly
digested and that flood the body with energy. Due to insulin issues,
rapidly digested foods which trigger a flood of energy cannot be
managed nor tolerated by diabetics. Because of this, a diabetic is
always better off dropping sugar and replacing those calories with
protein or fat. Basically, as good of health they may attain with a
diet that includes sugar, they would have even BETTER health if they
dropped that sugar and replaced it with a slower burning fuel.

It is irresponsible and down right RIDICULOUS of the medical
establishment that diabetics are not told this. Very few diabetics are
aware of the degree that sugar in any form adversely affects their
health. They are beat over the head with the low-fat nonsense, when
the much more pertinent issue is that of watching sugar. Fat doesn't
cause heart disease. Even cholesterol doesn't really cause it,
cholesterol rises in response to heart disease. But do you know what
DOES cause heart disease? Poor sugar control! Poor sugar control on
your meter is a sign of poor energy utilization. Poor energy
utilization contributes to tissue/cellular death. Ultimately it is
tissue death and decay which causes heart disease. The decayed
arteries require cholesterol to be elevated so your body can repair
the damage from the cholesterol (cholesterol repairs cells & tissues).

This is why high cholesterol is typically seen in groups who are at a
big risk for premature aging/tissue & cellular death: smokers (oxygen
deprivation), diabetics (energy deprivation), those who are stressed
out & live generally unhealthy lifestyles with poor sleep (which
promotes physiological decay/unwellness by not allowing adequate
rest/repair time for your body & elevating stress hormones which tax
the body), etc. It's the LIFESTYLE which is causing the heart disease,
the cholesterol is just a symptom of the disease!

Telling diabetics to forgo fat in favor of sugar is like telling
someone to lay in the middle of the street and put a stint in their
leg to avoid damage from a car crash. Sure, the stint might help if
you ALREADY have been hit... but laying in the street *just so* you
can put the stint in your leg is just a d*mn stupid idea if you ask
me. If a diabetic dumps the sugar, raises the fat, and gets better
control this way, they are automatically at a lower risk for heart
disease.

Dolkian wrote in message ...

The ADA is a wonderful group and works with scientific facts nor pie
in the sky (as it were) ideas. Sugar can be consumed in any diet even
that of a diabetic.

Bob in CT wrote:


On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:45:30 -0500, Jim Bard wrote:


"Alice Faber" wrote in message
...


In article ,
Dolkian wrote:


I would never try a low carb diet if I were Diabetic. Diabetics
need a well rounded diet that includes fruits and vegetables.
Check out the ADA site (American Diabetic Assoc.) They have
wonderful programs.
Dokan


Me too. I'm not diabetic, but if I were, I'd hate to disappoint the
pharmaceutical companies who have worked so hard to find drugs to control
ailments that often can be controlled by diet.



The ADA is horrible. They're the ones who say you can eat sugar while
being a diabetic. Shame on them! Moreover, why doesn't a low carb diet
include fruits and vegetables? Mine does.

"Dolkian" wrote in message
...
I would never try a low carb diet if I were Diabetic. Diabetics
need a well rounded diet that includes fruits and vegetables.
Check out the ADA site (American Diabetic Assoc.) They have
wonderful programs.
Dokan

My doctor tell me the ADA diet plan was a really bad idea and suggest a
low-carb diet to help control glucose levels. Within literally days of
lowered carbs, my sugar levels dropped dramatically.

The irony here is that my sugars had gone up as I tried all of these "diet
foods" that cut the fat -- but piled on the carbs.

I am not following a formal Atkins diet, but can vouch that cutting carbs
does wonders for lowering sugar levels.

Also, where did you get the notion that veggies are verboten for low-carb
diets?


Alice Faber wrote:

In article ,
Matt wrote:


Hi All,

I am a type II diabetic on Atkins. I have lost probably 40-50 pounds
in the year I have been on the diet. I also feel great.

However for the last 4 or 5 months, I have been stalling. I am eating
less than 30 carbs a day and exercising as I have since day one. It
seems I lost most of my weight easily in the first few months. I have
another 110-130 to go. My HbA1c has always been in the mid 5's and my
doctor is very pleased with my glucose control with diet and (later)
exercise alone.

When I saw my doctor today and asked her about stalling, she told me
she would test my insulin levels. Because has seen low carb dieters
run into long stalls and slow loss because of higher insulin levels
EVEN if they have good HbA1c AND good fasting glucose (mines in the
upper 80's usually). I have always struggled to loose weight.

Questions:

Does the above sound reasonable (good blood sugar control, but high
insulin levels)? And could this be my problem?

Also, I tried Glucophage when I was initially diagnosed with Diabetes.
I could *NOT* tolerate this medication. I tried it four 3-4 weeks and
it punished my digestive system. However it was an excellent motivator
to eat right and exercise.

So, my doctor told me that if my insulin levels were high I could go
on Avandia to help lower insulin levels. She initially recommended
Glucophage and also mentioned Glucophage XR, but I am nervous about
considering either because of my very bad Glucophage experience. So
she suggested Avaindia. Yet, I read on Atkins sight that Avandia can
cause stall's!

So, one more question: If my insulin level is high (and that could
cause the above stall/loss problems), should I try the Avandia?

Thanks for reading and any advice you can give! I need it.


Google here and the diabetes newsgroups for posts by Jenny-the-bean. She
had exactly this problem, as I recall.

"Dolkian" wrote in message
...
Do you have better lab results? I eat lots of pasta, bread and
other carbs and avoid fats like the plague.
Don't ignore this question.

Let's see, my sugars dropped almost in half and my choloesteral levels also
went down substantially -- after I went low-carb (on the advice of my
doctor). I am also taking less diabetes medication than before.

Clearly I am putting myself at risk and need to go back to the diet where my
sugar levels were higher, my cholesteral was worse, and I needed to take
more pills.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense....


Jennifer wrote:

You continue to ignore my question.

You said you weren't a diabetic: "I would never try a low carb diet IF
i were a diabetic".

Now you say you are.

So? Who cares.

The big question is:

WHY are you here if you don't like the low carb program?

Jennifer


Dolkian wrote:

Lets see he
My last HgbA1C was around 5.6
My Cholesterol is 153
My Tris were 163
My weight is 123 on a 5'6" frame
My fasting B.Sugar was 86 but I had my morning coffee.
My kidney and liver tests are perfect and my heart enzymes are
normal.
My stress test and echo are excellent with evidence of CVD or CHF.
Not bad eh!

Alibi Studios wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:51:05 -0700, Dolkian wrote:


Check out some VALID research not just publications that support
your ill conceived premise. You follow your high fat and protein
loaded diet and see which group populates the cardio wards and the
dialysis units.
It will be and is now the high consumers of meat proteins and high
fats and very low carbs that one finds in end stage renal disease
and cardio failure.
You stick with your diet and we will stay with ours.



Why can't we force these people to behave the way we want them to???
We don't want to be saved from ourselves!

Now if you want to site some studies, I'm very well prepared to paste
research from; Scientific American, The New England Journal of
Medicine and Johns Hopkins University. Who are your sources? Did you
read something on the internet? Just because something is on a web
page or even written in a book does not mean it's true. Let's see what
you've got.

The proof is in the numbers. My brother and my brother in law both
died from ailments assiciated with diabetes. Higher levels of insulin
causes your cells to store cholesterol in your blood instead of
harvest it, like human bodies did prior to agriculture. Every time a
diabetic has to inject insulin or eat a pill they have an insulin
spike that causes three things. Store cholesterol in your blood. Store
fat in your body and store water in your kidneys. All we're doing here
is keeping insulin at safe levels, we're not trying to force our
bodies to do anything that they didn't do for a 100,000 years. If a
caveman diet wasn't good the world never would've gotten so populated.
Farming has only been around for 6,000 years. what about the other
94,000 of steak and eggs (hold the toast)

Both brothers died from cholesterol related problems and one had lost
a limb and his eyesight to diabetes. Do you have diabetes? How's your
cholesterol? Are you a card carrying member of a phamacy?

I too am diabetic and have followed this diet for the last three years
and my CBC comes back with exceptional numbers every 6 months. My
liver and kidney funtions are right smack in the middle of the curve
just where DOCTORS want them to be. My total cholesterol is very good
and my ratio is 2.6.

end
Patti
Patricia Glover
Professional photo retouch artist - Damaged, worn or ripped photos
repaired - Hand color old black and white photographs
Web pages designed - personalized animations - Commissioned art
http://www.alibistudios.com
http://www.alibimusic.com

Sounds as though you need to interview with another doctor.

James A. Cooley wrote:

"Dolkian" wrote in message
...

I would never try a low carb diet if I were Diabetic. Diabetics
need a well rounded diet that includes fruits and vegetables.
Check out the ADA site (American Diabetic Assoc.) They have
wonderful programs.
Dokan


My doctor tell me the ADA diet plan was a really bad idea and suggest a
low-carb diet to help control glucose levels. Within literally days of
lowered carbs, my sugar levels dropped dramatically.

The irony here is that my sugars had gone up as I tried all of these "diet
foods" that cut the fat -- but piled on the carbs.

I am not following a formal Atkins diet, but can vouch that cutting carbs
does wonders for lowering sugar levels.

Also, where did you get the notion that veggies are verboten for low-carb
diets?


Alice Faber wrote:


In article ,
Matt wrote:



Hi All,

I am a type II diabetic on Atkins. I have lost probably 40-50 pounds
in the year I have been on the diet. I also feel great.

However for the last 4 or 5 months, I have been stalling. I am eating
less than 30 carbs a day and exercising as I have since day one. It
seems I lost most of my weight easily in the first few months. I have
another 110-130 to go. My HbA1c has always been in the mid 5's and my
doctor is very pleased with my glucose control with diet and (later)
exercise alone.

When I saw my doctor today and asked her about stalling, she told me
she would test my insulin levels. Because has seen low carb dieters
run into long stalls and slow loss because of higher insulin levels
EVEN if they have good HbA1c AND good fasting glucose (mines in the
upper 80's usually). I have always struggled to loose weight.

Questions:

Does the above sound reasonable (good blood sugar control, but high
insulin levels)? And could this be my problem?

Also, I tried Glucophage when I was initially diagnosed with Diabetes.
I could *NOT* tolerate this medication. I tried it four 3-4 weeks and
it punished my digestive system. However it was an excellent motivator
to eat right and exercise.

So, my doctor told me that if my insulin levels were high I could go
on Avandia to help lower insulin levels. She initially recommended
Glucophage and also mentioned Glucophage XR, but I am nervous about
considering either because of my very bad Glucophage experience. So
she suggested Avaindia. Yet, I read on Atkins sight that Avandia can
cause stall's!

So, one more question: If my insulin level is high (and that could
cause the above stall/loss problems), should I try the Avandia?

Thanks for reading and any advice you can give! I need it.


Google here and the diabetes newsgroups for posts by Jenny-the-bean. She
had exactly this problem, as I recall.

"BJ in Texas" wrote in message
m...
Dolkian wrote:
Then why not state that is YOUR experience and not one
shared by most diabetics and not one most doctors approve of.


And many other Type II diabetics... My doctor approves of my
methods because they work, not because they agree or disagree
with the ADA's recommendations. He is also aware that he has
a number of Type II's following the ADA's recommendations
that are not as successful as I am.

My doctor started suggesting low-carb diets after seing too many diabetic
patients getting worse while doing "all the right things" per the ADA. I was
one of them and can clearly see that lowered carb intake (though not a
formal Atkins plan) has produced observable results. My sugar levels are
lower, my cholesterol levels are better, and I generally feel better.

I made progress by simply making some basic attempts to limit carbs and
sugar. Nothing formal or fancy, just common sense.


Why is it that someone that is not at all experienced with living
with Type II diabetes thinks they can tell us how it should be
controlled?

BJ

Dolkian wrote:

Ever hear of canning and freezing fruit, vegies and meats?

You're just the little expert on all sorts of things, aren't you,
deeder?

Watching for you to post those citations that someone requested. But
you can't, can you?

"James A. Cooley" wrote:

James, please don't feed the trolls. Especially don't feed them
low-carb. It would only make them live longer.

Dolkian wrote:
| It isn't sad it is the truth and eventually you will find that low
| carb kills. All the protein and fat causes cardiovascular disease and
| kidney disease.
|

My sister and I are both T2 diabetic. My triglycerides and cholesterol have
dropped dramatically to normal ranges with no medications, and my blood
glucose and HbA1c remain in normal ranges also with no medications on my
low-carb eating plan. My blood pressure dropped on low-carb, and I am off
a medication for that also. I've lost a lot of weight and feel great; my
health is the best it's been in years.

OTOH my sister for years has stubbornly followed the high-carb/low-fat ADA
diet, and she is on two meds for diabetes (her FBG's remain high); two
cholesterol-busters (and her cholesterol is still above normal); she is on
three meds for high blood pressure -- which is still too high. She has
neuropathy in both feet and legs that continues to worsen, and has developed
heart arrythmias. Thankfully, she finally switched to a low-carb plan
(South Beach) two weeks ago, so she has a chance of stopping the
deterioration caused by the ADA's killer diet.

You are an idiot with absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Why
are you trolling a low-carb newsgroup? What jollies does it give you?

--
Peter
270/215/180
Before/Current Pix:
http://users.thelink.net/marengo/bef...eafterpix.html

Dolkian wrote:

| Sorry to burst your little bubble. I follow a Mediterranean diet I
| don't believe that is strictly ADA. I would have no problem eating
| the ADA diet. Now I have followed this diet for over 35 years with no
| problems and am in excellent control. Are you?

I was diagnosed a t2 diabetic last year and take no medications at all to
control it. I simply follow my high-fat/moderate protein/low-carb eating
plan. My HbA1c dropped from 9.0 (at diagnosis) to 6.0 in 90 days; in the
same time period my fasting blood glucose dropped from 135 to 91. My
cholesterol also dropped from 232 to 188, while my HDL (good) cholesterol
increased. My tiglycerices plummeted from 636 to 217 in three months.

BTW, I also lost 55 pounds in the four months from 12/03 through 4/04.

I would say that that's excellent control. :-)
--
Peter
270/215/180
Before/Current Pix:
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Roger Zoul wrote:
| Dolkian wrote:
||| Another supposition made without scientific facts.
|
| It so disappoints me when people run around talking about scientific
| facts without the ability to use any discernment whatsoever. Such
| people are easily manipulated and lead astray.

Yep. This is what is meant by the phrase "casting pearls among swine."
--
Peter
270/215/180
Before/Current Pix:
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