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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 26th, 2012, 05:22 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
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Posts: 540
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:48:33 -0400, Walter Bushell
wrote:

[...]
Despite the scientific evidence that 75% of patients with CAD had
LDL-cholesterol levels *below* the current guidelines of the National
Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP) of 130 milligrams (50% had
LDL-cholesterol levels below 100 milligrams!).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

And why do most people eat vegetarian and vegan diets in the first
place? Because they think fat and cholesterol (per se) are bad for
them, to avoid CAD, etc.

Do you have any sources sugggesting this is why most people are
vegetarian/vegan?


Not really. It's just a personal hunch based on knowing many
vegetarians/vegans.


Is your sample sized sufficiently random and large enough? You're
interested in nutrition so perhaps that produces sampling errors.


It's entirely possible, Walter. But I know (and have known) an awful
lot of vegetarians and vegans.

And politics, etc., aside, one of the first things a vegetarian or
vegan will usually say to me when they find out that I eat lots of
meat is: "Aren't you worried about having a heart attack?"

And because I'm not a proselytizer, I don't even bother trying to
convince them to eat meat, etc., I just make it clear to them that I
do, and will continue to do so. If they do ask me why, I point out the
science supporting *my* decision.

Besides the so-called ethical, religious or political reasons for not
wanting to eat animal flesh, eggs, fish, milk, shellfish, cheese,
etc., what other reason could there be to want to deprive oneself of
some the most nutritious and tasty foods on the planet? Foods that
human beings have evolved to eat for millions of years.


There friends are vegans and they want to maintain and deepen
friendships?


Maybe. But I don't have any friends that would want me to deprive
myself of tasty and nutritious foods. In other words, I don't have any
dumb, fascist friends.

They are self destructive?


Not intentionally, anyway.

They have an aversion to eating in general?


If that were true, they'd probably eat only a little bit of
everything, and wouldn't deprive themselves of some of the tastiest
and most nutritious kinds of food.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #12  
Old July 26th, 2012, 11:23 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Doug Freyburger
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Posts: 1,866
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'

Walter Bushell wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

I have no wish to push anyone who is a vegetarian for religious, moral
or political reasons to stop. Some reasons are worth the slightly lower
health. And people who practice for those reasons tend to follow
traditional systems that are well designed so they don't have health
impacts. Rather like the few Inuits who still live the traditional
hunting lifestyle on the ice are very healthy even though they eat
nothing but (very broadly defined) meat for months on end.


But ah, vegans in England ran into problems with B12, because the
grains in England did not contain as many insects as in India. A
little human dung (or from other animals) in the vegetables also helps.


It's the "traditional systems are well designed" bit. Well evolved
actually. Modern people who suddenly decided to go vegan did not have
the benefit of centuries of tradition that give time for details to
evolve to make a diet healthy.
  #13  
Old July 27th, 2012, 02:13 AM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Ivan The Not-So-Bad
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Posts: 5
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care aftersuffering heart attack'

On 2012-07-25, Dogman wrote:
On 25 Jul 2012 00:18:29 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote:

[...]
Despite the scientific evidence that 75% of patients with CAD had
LDL-cholesterol levels *below* the current guidelines of the National
Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP) of 130 milligrams (50% had
LDL-cholesterol levels below 100 milligrams!).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract

And why do most people eat vegetarian and vegan diets in the first
place? Because they think fat and cholesterol (per se) are bad for
them, to avoid CAD, etc.


Do you have any sources sugggesting this is why most people are
vegetarian/vegan?


Not really. It's just a personal hunch based on knowing many
vegetarians/vegans.

Besides the so-called ethical, religious or political reasons for not
wanting to eat animal flesh, eggs, fish, milk, shellfish, cheese,
etc., what other reason could there be to want to deprive oneself of
some the most nutritious and tasty foods on the planet? Foods that
human beings have evolved to eat for millions of years.


For me, I find my digestion and energy levels are much better when not eating
meat. I eat eggs and cheeses though.
  #14  
Old July 27th, 2012, 06:02 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'

On 27 Jul 2012 01:13:54 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote:

[...]
Besides the so-called ethical, religious or political reasons for not
wanting to eat animal flesh, eggs, fish, milk, shellfish, cheese,
etc., what other reason could there be to want to deprive oneself of
some the most nutritious and tasty foods on the planet? Foods that
human beings have evolved to eat for millions of years.


For me, I find my digestion and energy levels are much better when not eating
meat. I eat eggs and cheeses though.


So...you're a vegetarian? That's okay, "different strokes for
different folks," right?

On the other hand, I know a lot of vegetarians and vegans who, without
the benefit of lots of vitamins & supplements, have the same problems
you describe.

But I like to get my nutrition from the foods I eat, if possible, and
if you've ever seen the nutritional profile of just a small portion
of, say, grass-fed beef liver, it's pretty easy to do that by adding
meat to your diet.

Humans have evolved to eat animal flesh for millions of years, so it's
unlikely that your digestion or energy problems are totally related to
eating meat per se, but without knowing exactly what you *do* eat,
what your lifestyle is, etc., it's hard to suggest what might be at
fault. Perhaps your body just needs to eat more meat, and more often,
before your body can adjust to the change? But it's just a guess.

As a fat-adapted, low-carb, paleo eater, I have energy to spare and
never have a problem with digestion. Nor does anyone I know who eats
in a similar fashion.

I also have zero ethical, religious, or political compunctions from
eating animal flesh, so maybe that helps me some, too.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #15  
Old July 27th, 2012, 08:23 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Ivan The Not-So-Bad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care aftersuffering heart attack'

On 2012-07-27, Dogman wrote:
On 27 Jul 2012 01:13:54 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote:

[...]
Besides the so-called ethical, religious or political reasons for not
wanting to eat animal flesh, eggs, fish, milk, shellfish, cheese,
etc., what other reason could there be to want to deprive oneself of
some the most nutritious and tasty foods on the planet? Foods that
human beings have evolved to eat for millions of years.


For me, I find my digestion and energy levels are much better when not eating
meat. I eat eggs and cheeses though.


So...you're a vegetarian? That's okay, "different strokes for
different folks," right?

On the other hand, I know a lot of vegetarians and vegans who, without
the benefit of lots of vitamins & supplements, have the same problems
you describe.

But I like to get my nutrition from the foods I eat, if possible, and
if you've ever seen the nutritional profile of just a small portion
of, say, grass-fed beef liver, it's pretty easy to do that by adding
meat to your diet.

Humans have evolved to eat animal flesh for millions of years, so it's
unlikely that your digestion or energy problems are totally related to
eating meat per se, but without knowing exactly what you *do* eat,
what your lifestyle is, etc., it's hard to suggest what might be at
fault. Perhaps your body just needs to eat more meat, and more often,
before your body can adjust to the change? But it's just a guess.

As a fat-adapted, low-carb, paleo eater, I have energy to spare and
never have a problem with digestion. Nor does anyone I know who eats
in a similar fashion.

I also have zero ethical, religious, or political compunctions from
eating animal flesh, so maybe that helps me some, too.


I used to eat a ton of meat. Tons of it with every meal. In those times, I
would always have slow digestion and general indigiestion. Eventually I moved
from red meat and pork mainly to turkey and still had the same issue.

I then became a vegetarian and the issues with energy levels and digestion went
away. After a few years, I went back to eating meatand the same problems
returned. Eventually, I just ended up going vegetarian and that was pretty much
that. In those times, everything else in my life was fairly static down to when
I went to sleep and woke up.

At this point my energy levels are such that I am able to lift heavy 3 days a
week and put out 6 hours and 40 minutes of aerobic exercises per week with no
issues.

My diet consists of your usual vegetarian fare (no soy, no processed foods) and
my supplements are 2 grams of fish oil, 2 grams of CLA and B-Complex every day.

I have no problem with people who do eat meat. To each their own. It's just not
my choice due to aforementioned reasons.
  #16  
Old July 27th, 2012, 10:18 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'

On 27 Jul 2012 19:23:24 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote:

[...]
As a fat-adapted, low-carb, paleo eater, I have energy to spare and
never have a problem with digestion. Nor does anyone I know who eats
in a similar fashion.

I also have zero ethical, religious, or political compunctions from
eating animal flesh, so maybe that helps me some, too.


I used to eat a ton of meat. Tons of it with every meal.


Interesting to me is the fact that I no longer require "tons" of meat
with my meals, provided I get enough FAT.

I never stuff myself. And I only eat when I'm hungry, not because it's
"time" to eat.

In those times, I
would always have slow digestion and general indigiestion.


Meat and fat take longer to digest; that's not a bug, it's a feature.
It allows enzymes in your gut longer to work their magic, i.e., get
the most nutrition out of the sources.

Indigestion is something else altogether. It can be caused by a
multitude of things. Things like eating grains, drinking, eating too
much of anything, eating too fast,IBS, medications, etc.

But again, it's unlikely due to the meat, unless you're *really*
piling it on.

Eventually I moved
from red meat and pork mainly to turkey and still had the same issue.


I have a hunch that your meals were too large, and eaten too often.

I then became a vegetarian and the issues with energy levels and digestion went
away. After a few years, I went back to eating meatand the same problems
returned. Eventually, I just ended up going vegetarian and that was pretty much
that. In those times, everything else in my life was fairly static down to when
I went to sleep and woke up.


I'm not trying to convince you, one way or the other, but you may want
to gradually begin to eat more meat, but don't eat "tons" of it. See
how that works out for you.

At this point my energy levels are such that I am able to lift heavy 3 days a
week and put out 6 hours and 40 minutes of aerobic exercises per week with no
issues.


Yeah, I used to work out that much (and more), but almost 7 hours of
aerobic exercise per week is over-doing it, in my opinion, and may be
adding unnecessary stress (systemic inflammation) to your body's
systems.

Of course, that depends on what your objectives are (training for a
sport, competition, etc.), but for general health and fitness, that's
way too much.

"Chronic cardio" is bad for your health:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/chron...#axzz21qQTwH8B

[...]
I have no problem with people who do eat meat. To each their own. It's just not
my choice due to aforementioned reasons.


You bet, it's your choice.

But again, it doesn't make sense to me to deprive yourself of the
tastiest and most nutritious foods on the planet unless you absolutely
have to. And I don't think you have to, provided you do a bit more
experimenting. E.g., add a *small* amount of meat to one meal per day,
then see how that goes. If it goes well, add a small amount of meat to
two meals per day. And so on.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #17  
Old July 27th, 2012, 10:50 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Ivan The Not-So-Bad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care aftersuffering heart attack'

On 2012-07-27, Dogman wrote:
On 27 Jul 2012 19:23:24 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote:

[...]
As a fat-adapted, low-carb, paleo eater, I have energy to spare and
never have a problem with digestion. Nor does anyone I know who eats
in a similar fashion.

I also have zero ethical, religious, or political compunctions from
eating animal flesh, so maybe that helps me some, too.


I used to eat a ton of meat. Tons of it with every meal.


Interesting to me is the fact that I no longer require "tons" of meat
with my meals, provided I get enough FAT.

I never stuff myself. And I only eat when I'm hungry, not because it's
"time" to eat.


I definitely didn't require it. I was a pretty fat dude and was just eating
tons of food and tons of meat went along with that.

In those times, I
would always have slow digestion and general indigiestion.


Meat and fat take longer to digest; that's not a bug, it's a feature.
It allows enzymes in your gut longer to work their magic, i.e., get
the most nutrition out of the sources.


In my case it was long digestion along with light constipation, regardless of
how much fiber I would ingest.

Indigestion is something else altogether. It can be caused by a
multitude of things. Things like eating grains, drinking, eating too
much of anything, eating too fast,IBS, medications, etc.


That's true. But if the only vector I've eliminated from my diet is meat and
all else is/was static and I almost immediately felt better, it leads me to
believe it was the meat.

But again, it's unlikely due to the meat, unless you're *really*
piling it on.


I was definitely piling it on the first time, but not so much the second time.
The second time was having meat mainly in things like salad or on the side
during a meal.

Eventually I moved
from red meat and pork mainly to turkey and still had the same issue.


I have a hunch that your meals were too large, and eaten too often.


They were large, but not eaten very often and this is only valid during the
first phase of my life where I ate meat (20-something years)

I then became a vegetarian and the issues with energy levels and digestion went
away. After a few years, I went back to eating meatand the same problems
returned. Eventually, I just ended up going vegetarian and that was pretty much
that. In those times, everything else in my life was fairly static down to when
I went to sleep and woke up.


I'm not trying to convince you, one way or the other, but you may want
to gradually begin to eat more meat, but don't eat "tons" of it. See
how that works out for you.


At this point, I honestly have no pull towards it. If I had some sort of desire
to eat it again, I would consider it but right now and for the last few years,
not so much.

At this point my energy levels are such that I am able to lift heavy 3 days a
week and put out 6 hours and 40 minutes of aerobic exercises per week with no
issues.


Yeah, I used to work out that much (and more), but almost 7 hours of
aerobic exercise per week is over-doing it, in my opinion, and may be
adding unnecessary stress (systemic inflammation) to your body's
systems.

Of course, that depends on what your objectives are (training for a
sport, competition, etc.), but for general health and fitness, that's
way too much.

"Chronic cardio" is bad for your health:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/chron...#axzz21qQTwH8B


I totally agree that I am probably overdoing it. I can't argue with you there.
If I feel any pain in my joints or muscles from doing it, I definitely scale it
back a bit but for it's been going pretty well ths far. I've had full physicals
including blood and urine work done recently with no issues. All of my numbers
were spot on so I'm not too worried though I do admit I'm probably not doing
myself many favors with that much aerobics. I think I might be addicted to it,
to be honest.

[...]
I have no problem with people who do eat meat. To each their own. It's just not
my choice due to aforementioned reasons.


You bet, it's your choice.

But again, it doesn't make sense to me to deprive yourself of the
tastiest and most nutritious foods on the planet unless you absolutely
have to. And I don't think you have to, provided you do a bit more
experimenting. E.g., add a *small* amount of meat to one meal per day,
then see how that goes. If it goes well, add a small amount of meat to
two meals per day. And so on.


I just don't feel like I'm depriving myself of anything. I am able to live
completely free of it and have no desire either in taste or nutritionally to
eat it, so why bother? If I was doing it for the ethical aspect of it, I'd
probably put up more of an argument here but I'm not. I mean, it's great that
I'm not contributing to industrialized slaughter of animals but that's not why
I don't do it
  #18  
Old July 27th, 2012, 11:11 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'

On 27 Jul 2012 21:50:36 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote:

[...]
I just don't feel like I'm depriving myself of anything. I am able to live
completely free of it and have no desire either in taste or nutritionally to
eat it, so why bother?


Hey, if that's what it all boils down to for you, there's no reason to
continue the discussion, right?

But I do have to wonder why you're posting to a LOW-carb newsgroup?

I mean, it's great that
I'm not contributing to industrialized slaughter of animals but that's not why
I don't do it


Think again. Ever lived on a farm? Try walking behind the combine for
a while, during the harvest season. Trust me, you'll see more
"industrialized slaughter of animals" than you can shake a stick at.

But good luck with whatever you decide!

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #19  
Old July 28th, 2012, 01:47 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 993
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care aftersuffering heart attack'

On Jul 27, 6:11*pm, Dogman wrote:
On 27 Jul 2012 21:50:36 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote:

[...]

I just don't feel like I'm depriving myself of anything. I am able to live
completely free of it and have no desire either in taste or nutritionally to
eat it, so why bother?


Hey, if that's what it all boils down to for you, there's no reason to
continue the discussion, right?

But I do have to wonder why you're posting to a LOW-carb newsgroup?



This coming from the guy who makes OT post after
post about all kinds of crap that has nothing whatever
to do with LC. Go figure.


  #20  
Old July 28th, 2012, 04:58 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'

On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 05:47:02 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[...]
But I do have to wonder why you're posting to a LOW-carb newsgroup?


This coming from the guy who makes OT post after
post about all kinds of crap that has nothing whatever
to do with LC. Go figure.


The fact that you can't even figure out what those other posts have to
do with low-carb eating is yet further proof that you are perhaps the
dumbest, most scientifically illiterate person on the planet.

You are to scientific literacy what fish are to bicycles.

Asshole.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
 




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