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Claim, weight loss "cures" diabetes



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 12th, 2006, 01:17 AM posted to alt.support.diabetes,sci.med.cardiology,sci.med,alt.support.diet
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Default Claim, weight loss "cures" diabetes

Concerning Mr. Chung's assertion that weight loss "cures" diabetes, weight
loss from bypass surgery offered as evidence:

"Actually, there are many examples."

me: Happy to entertain any of them you think possible.

"There has been no scientific evidence that contradicts the assertion."

Always happy to discuss science, so let us review, you claimed the weight
loss by bypass surgery resulted in a "cure" for diabetes" in support of
your assertion. No support at all, the reassertion of glucose control
started right after the surgery and before substantial weight loss and
before internal belly fat loss. You asserted the "cure" resulted from
loss
of the belly fat, refuted.

Not all weight loss surgeries result in reassertion of glucose control,
only those which introduce nutrition by bypass into the distal gut. At
the
same time in the latter incretin hormone levels are greatly elevated as a
result and these are critical in the observed glucose control, refuted a
second time.

Your superficial grasp of that literature didn't allow you to know your
example contains the seeds for the refutation of your ill founded
assertion. Even in the case of greater glucose control, the diabetes is
not "cured" but the disorder compensated for by the greatly elevated
incretin levels, stop that and the glucose control would disappear without
weight gain.

I know of one other proceedure that also results in reassertion of glucose
control, perhaps you can find it.
  #2  
Old June 12th, 2006, 05:04 AM posted to alt.support.diabetes,sci.med.cardiology,sci.med,alt.support.diet
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Default Claim, weight loss "cures" diabetes

wrote:
Concerning Mr. Chung's assertion that weight loss "cures" diabetes, weight
loss from bypass surgery offered as evidence:

"Actually, there are many examples."

me: Happy to entertain any of them you think possible.

"There has been no scientific evidence that contradicts the assertion."

Always happy to discuss science, so let us review, you claimed the weight
loss by bypass surgery resulted in a "cure" for diabetes" in support of
your assertion. No support at all, the reassertion of glucose control
started right after the surgery and before substantial weight loss and
before internal belly fat loss. You asserted the "cure" resulted from
loss
of the belly fat, refuted.

Not all weight loss surgeries result in reassertion of glucose control,
only those which introduce nutrition by bypass into the distal gut. At
the
same time in the latter incretin hormone levels are greatly elevated as a
result and these are critical in the observed glucose control, refuted a
second time.

Your superficial grasp of that literature didn't allow you to know your
example contains the seeds for the refutation of your ill founded
assertion. Even in the case of greater glucose control, the diabetes is
not "cured" but the disorder compensated for by the greatly elevated
incretin levels, stop that and the glucose control would disappear without
weight gain.

I know of one other proceedure that also results in reassertion of glucose
control, perhaps you can find it.


Anything that brings about loss of visceral adiposity will work to cure
non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetes in folks with significant
visceral adiposity:

"With moderate weight loss following LAGB (Laparoscopic Adjustable
Gastric Banding), co-morbidities (including type 2 diabetes) were cured
in 50-80% or improved in 10-40% of all patients."

Source:

http://tinyurl.com/nvxgo

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://tinyurl.com/m3gnu

  #3  
Old June 12th, 2006, 05:35 PM posted to alt.support.diabetes,sci.med.cardiology,sci.med,alt.support.diet
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Posts: n/a
Default Claim, weight loss "cures" diabetes

Mr. Chung offers:

"Anything that brings about loss of visceral adiposity will work to cure
non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetes in folks with significant
visceral adiposity:

"With moderate weight loss following LAGB (Laparoscopic Adjustable
Gastric Banding), co-morbidities (including type 2 diabetes) were cured
in 50-80% or improved in 10-40% of all patients."

Source:

http://tinyurl.com/nvxgo"

Good, nice to see you come down from the mountan, to a search engine and
into the literature. Using medline and "banding diabetes cure" as terms
as a speculation of how the search enjine was used, found as first among
two hits the abstract above and this one:

"Although all of the surgical procedures for obesity offer improved weight
loss and diabetes control compared with conservative methods, the
Roux-en-Y gastric bypass and biliary-pancreatic diversion offer superior
weight loss and resolution of diabetes. The more dramatic effect seen in
the surgical procedures to cause malabsorption is likely secondary to the
bypass of the foregut resulting in increased weight loss and elevation of
the enteroglucagon level."

Elsewhere related to the last sentence:

"We have previously proposed that the rapid improvement in insulin
resistance observed following bariatric surgery is mediated by changes in
incretin levels of the entero-insular axis and that long-term improvement
is modulated by fat mass loss and changes in adipocytokine levels of the
adipoinsular axis."

http://tinyurl.com/pphk7

And from the full article of the above:

"Incretin levels
undergo remarkable changes following bariatric
surgery.15
This has led to speculation that the rapid
drop in insulin resistance and improvement in
T2DM following gastric bypass is mediated by
incretins and the entero-insular axis."

It goes on to discuss the role of internal belly fat in long term control.

As I have maintained all along in these now two threads, it is a complex
interrelated set of factors which leads to diabetes in some people.
Science
is a matter of degree and nuances ruled by the bell curve and absolute
statements don't serve. Internal belly fat is among those factors but
doesn't start the cascade per sey and reduction by weight loss is not the
final word on the question.

"Cure" is a matter of nuances as well and we can explore how use of the
term is misleading as applied to diabetes, even as used in the first
abstract. So as not to overburden one post with a full discussion here,
we
can start with the implications of what the two abstracts above show and
proceed to tease out the broader reality as found in the literature. Good
to be finally doing science and not posturing.
  #4  
Old June 12th, 2006, 07:50 PM posted to alt.support.diabetes,sci.med.cardiology,sci.med,alt.support.diet
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weight Loss Cures Type-2 Non-Insulin Dependent Diabetes (NIDDM)

wrote:
Andrew wrote truthfully:

Anything that brings about loss of visceral adiposity will work to cure
non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetes in folks with significant
visceral adiposity:

"With moderate weight loss following LAGB (Laparoscopic Adjustable
Gastric Banding), co-morbidities (including type 2 diabetes) were cured
in 50-80% or improved in 10-40% of all patients."

Source:

http://tinyurl.com/nvxgo

Good, nice to see you come down from the mountan, to a search engine and
into the literature.


Bottomline: You are without the truth.

-- End Discussion --

Still praying for your poor enslaved soul, dear neighbor.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://tinyurl.com/m3gnu

  #5  
Old June 12th, 2006, 08:19 PM posted to alt.support.diabetes,sci.med.cardiology,sci.med,alt.support.diet
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weight Loss Cures Type-2 Non-Insulin Dependent Diabetes (NIDDM)

"Bottomline: You are without the truth.

-- End Discussion --"

me: Ah, back to absolute statements and grandstanding and an inability to
engage in normal discussion we see, again.But the truth of the assertion
is
not supportable based on the research, again. Now you have retreated again
from a discussion of the science involved and into irrelevant matters
again, all who care to read can now form their own judgement, again, as to
the source's reliability in both science and those irrelevant matters and
what they reveal, again. A one shot abstract from a quick search of the
literature doesn't convincing science make, unless it is a public face one
wants to maintain, again. Goal achieved, again.
  #6  
Old June 12th, 2006, 10:27 PM posted to sci.med.cardiology,alt.support.diet
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chung Bull ****

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:


Bottomline: You are without the truth.

-- End Discussion --

More Chung Bull ****. He LIES:


Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:



Did not attempt exorcism.

Wanna bet, Chung? Here's EXACTLY what you said:

"In the infinitely powerful and holy name of LORD Jesus Christ, I
command you, demon, to come out and leave Philip before our LORD
personally destroys you. "
  #7  
Old June 13th, 2006, 12:27 AM posted to sci.med.cardiology,alt.support.diet,sci.med,alt.support.diabetes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weight Loss Cures Type-2 Non-Insulin Dependent Diabetes (NIDDM)

No, may God bless and protect and provide you peace at last.
  #8  
Old June 13th, 2006, 01:42 AM posted to sci.med.cardiology,alt.support.diet,sci.med,alt.support.diabetes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Weight Loss Cures Type-2 Non-Insulin Dependent Diabetes (NIDDM)

Al wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

Bottomline: You are without the truth.

-- End Discussion --

More Chung Bull ****. He LIES:


It remains my choice to continue writing truthfully. Sorry my choice
bothers you so terribly. Please forgive all my iniquities.

To understand this, simply surf the link below my sig.

Still praying for your poor enslaved soul, dear Al.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/m3gnu

  #9  
Old June 13th, 2006, 11:33 PM posted to alt.support.diet
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Claim, weight loss "cures" diabetes

Cured in 50-80% and improved in 10-40%...

That's some wide margins right there... long shot from calling it a
"cure"... rather a possibility of a cure.. wonder what the margin of error
is over it..

Will~

"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:
Concerning Mr. Chung's assertion that weight loss "cures" diabetes,
weight
loss from bypass surgery offered as evidence:

"Actually, there are many examples."

me: Happy to entertain any of them you think possible.

"There has been no scientific evidence that contradicts the assertion."

Always happy to discuss science, so let us review, you claimed the weight
loss by bypass surgery resulted in a "cure" for diabetes" in support of
your assertion. No support at all, the reassertion of glucose control
started right after the surgery and before substantial weight loss and
before internal belly fat loss. You asserted the "cure" resulted from
loss
of the belly fat, refuted.

Not all weight loss surgeries result in reassertion of glucose control,
only those which introduce nutrition by bypass into the distal gut. At
the
same time in the latter incretin hormone levels are greatly elevated as a
result and these are critical in the observed glucose control, refuted a
second time.

Your superficial grasp of that literature didn't allow you to know your
example contains the seeds for the refutation of your ill founded
assertion. Even in the case of greater glucose control, the diabetes is
not "cured" but the disorder compensated for by the greatly elevated
incretin levels, stop that and the glucose control would disappear
without
weight gain.

I know of one other proceedure that also results in reassertion of
glucose
control, perhaps you can find it.


Anything that brings about loss of visceral adiposity will work to cure
non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetes in folks with significant
visceral adiposity:

"With moderate weight loss following LAGB (Laparoscopic Adjustable
Gastric Banding), co-morbidities (including type 2 diabetes) were cured
in 50-80% or improved in 10-40% of all patients."

Source:

http://tinyurl.com/nvxgo

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://tinyurl.com/m3gnu



 




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