Fast track to ketosis

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
||| I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the
||| muscles, right?
||
|| Muscles hold about twice the glycogen as liver, 120g vs 70g.
||
||| Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be factored
||| into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise, maintain
||| diet, and wait a brief time.
||
|| Yes, we agree! Stop agreeing with me! :-)
||
|| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I
|| don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.

Good idea....

I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like answered too!

I think the liver will be cleared of glycogen relatively quickly just based
on personal experience when trying to recover from a carb up.

Rusty wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote:
||| DJ Delorie wrote:
||||| "Roger Zoul" writes:
|||||| I'm not sure I agree with you.
|||||
||||| I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you
||||| to go into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY
||||| point was
||||| that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours
||||| of exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
||||| ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.
|||||
|||||| Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.
|||||
||||| Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
||||| muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
||||| later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the
||||| muscles are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.
|||||
||||| I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
||||| glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate.
|||
||| I would guess that the liver can act quickly to keep BG from going
||| low. While you may not be able to speed its natural rate, you may
||| be able to encourage it to react.
|||
||| You
||||| can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to
||||| vomit but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its
||||| glycogen. It won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast
||||| as a carb-up
||||| could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.
|||
||| I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the
||| muscles, right?
|||
|||
|||||
|||||| So, there might be some finite time before that final step
|||||| happens,
|||||| but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
|||||| Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be
|||||| accounted
|||||| for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
|||||| time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would
|||||| correspond
|||||| to depleted liver glycogen.
|||||
||||| To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72
||||| hour period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a
||||| "fast
||||| track" the OP wanted.
|||
||| the sooner you deplete muscle glycogen, the quicker you enter
||| ketosis, assuming the liver is holding a lot of glycogen in the
||| first place.
|||
|||||
|||||| Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
|||||| the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
|||||| Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a
|||||| period of time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.
|||||
||||| Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their
||||| diet after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they
||||| eventually
||||| go into ketosis.
|||
||| I think one is close to being in ketosis at that point, as the
||| liver would begin dumping glycogen. At this point, ketosis is a
||| certainty provided too many carbs aren't reintroduced into the
||| diet. Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be
||| factored into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise,
||| maintain diet, and wait a brief time. That would in effect
||| minimize time to ketosis and would serve the OP's inquiry.
|||
|||
|| Actually I knew that working your muscles to failure won't use all
|| the available glucose in your body, I was more interested in the
|| time frame
|| of the cycle of using all the available muscle glucose, refilling it
|| with glucose from the liver and repeating until no more glucose is
|| present/ketosis.

You might post over in mwf to see if lyle will respond. I'd like to know as
well.

"Roger Zoul" writes:
|| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I
|| don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.

Good idea....

I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like answered too!

Two tidbits from Lyle:

1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal signals.

2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties.

So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need
to experiment to find out how much."

"Roger Zoul" writes:
|| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I
|| don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.

Good idea....

I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like answered too!

Two tidbits from Lyle:

1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal signals.

2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties.

So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need
to experiment to find out how much."

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
||||| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time,
||||| I don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.
|||
||| Good idea....
|||
||| I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like
||| answered too!
||
|| Two tidbits from Lyle:
||
|| 1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal
|| signals.
||
|| 2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties.
||
|| So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need
|| to experiment to find out how much."

Thanks for the info...BTW that should have been "I wasn't trying..." I need
to remember to read what I type before hitting send....

While I have no scientific proof or explanation, my personal experience is
that exercise, mainly weight lifting (moderate weights, high reps) and hard
cardio, combined with LC & restricted calories, very definitely accelerates
the time to re-enter ketosis (nothing new there). I generally don't worry
about how much work I need to do to quickly reenter, though. I just do it.

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
||||| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time,
||||| I don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.
|||
||| Good idea....
|||
||| I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like
||| answered too!
||
|| Two tidbits from Lyle:
||
|| 1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal
|| signals.
||
|| 2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties.
||
|| So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need
|| to experiment to find out how much."

Thanks for the info...BTW that should have been "I wasn't trying..." I need
to remember to read what I type before hitting send....

While I have no scientific proof or explanation, my personal experience is
that exercise, mainly weight lifting (moderate weights, high reps) and hard
cardio, combined with LC & restricted calories, very definitely accelerates
the time to re-enter ketosis (nothing new there). I generally don't worry
about how much work I need to do to quickly reenter, though. I just do it.