"net" carbs?

Is it true that you shouldn't count fiber and sugar alcohol carbs?
This seems a little fishy to me...why is it these things don't count?
How can you still eat a lot of fiber and still enter ketosis?

In message m rabbits77
was claimed to have wrote:

Is it true that you shouldn't count fiber and sugar alcohol carbs?
This seems a little fishy to me...why is it these things don't count?
How can you still eat a lot of fiber and still enter ketosis?

Everyone in my personal circle of friends and family that has started
playing the net carb game has either stopped losing weight, or gaining
weight. My personal belief is that the whole thing was invented to
create a market of high-carb tasting, low-net-carb foods to sell.

That being said, some people believe in it.

On Oct 29, 3:44*am, DevilsPGD wrote:
In message m rabbits77
was claimed to have wrote:

Is it true that you shouldn't count fiber and sugar alcohol carbs?
This seems a little fishy to me...why is it these things don't count?
How can you still eat a lot of fiber and still enter ketosis?

Everyone in my personal circle of friends and family that has started
playing the net carb game has either stopped losing weight, or gaining
weight. *My personal belief is that the whole thing was invented to
create a market of high-carb tasting, low-net-carb foods to sell.

That being said, some people believe in it.


People believe in it because there is science and lots of experience
behind it. Fiber does not get digested like a simple sugar or starch
carb would. Insoluble fiber does not get digested at all and passes
throught the digestive system. Soluble fiber winds up being
fermented in the digestive tract and turned into short chain fatty
acids, which are then absorbed and processed by the body, but not as
carbs. And there is science that these short chain fatty acids have
beneficial side effects. One of those is to lower cholesterol, which
is why adding soluble fiber to the diet either through foods or
supplements is recommended as one way of lowering cholesterol.

Sugar alcohols are a different subject. They do get digested and
absorbed to some extent like carbs would. However, their impact on
blood glucose levels varies widely, depending on the particular SA.
Some have a relatively small impact on BG, hence they can be
discounted from the total carb impact. If you google this group,
you'll find plenty of discussion on the pros/cons of SA, deducting
them, etc. IMO, if you're doing say Atkins, beyond induction, losing
OK, not having cravings, etc, eating proper amounts of other food,
then including them in moderation and deducting them from the carb
count is OK. On the other hand, if you're having problems and
consuming them with abandon, making them a main component of your
diet, thinking they are totally 0 carb, then that's another thing.
Also, depending on the SA and the person, many people can have
digestive issues with them if they eat more than a small amount at a
time.

" wrote:

.... * Fiber does not get digested like a simple sugar or starch
carb would. * Insoluble fiber does not get digested at all and passes
throught the digestive system.

Dig through the carb counts and suggestions in the early
editions of the Atkins book and you might conclude that
Dr A considered deducting insoluble fiber from the gate.
There are inaccuracies in various counts that could just
be that or that could just be demonstration of just how
inaccurate counts really are. Anyways, I think the reason
insoluble fiber isn't counted separately is US labels just
list fiber without separating them by type. Even if you
decide to use total carb counts there's no effect by
deducting insoluble fiber if you find the count for it.

Soluble fiber winds up being
fermented in the digestive tract and turned into short chain fatty
acids, which are then absorbed and processed by the body, but not as
carbs. * And there is science that these short chain fatty acids have
beneficial side effects. * One of those is to lower cholesterol, which
is why adding soluble fiber to the diet either through foods or
supplements is recommended as one way of lowering cholesterol.

That's why soluble fiber deduction makes sense if you're
counting carb grams. If you're counting calories the soluble
fiber doesn't get deducted from calorie counts just from carb
counts.

Sugar alcohols are a different subject. * They do get digested and
absorbed to some extent like carbs would.

This is why I chose to may the conservative personal choice
to not accept deduction for sugar alcohols, glycerine, effective
digested carbs or any similar claims. I also encourage folks
to look at monetary incentives that the claims have before
accepting such claims.

Consider the difference between counting and deducting
with a sugar alcohol candy or gum or whatever. With
counting it cuts into my total food for the day by reducing
my portions of root veggies or whatever. With deducting
I'm adding something like candy to my existing food. With
quantites as small as a daily stick of sugar free gum the
amount is too small to matter in most cases. But it does
not take much for it to add up fast.

However, their impact on
blood glucose levels varies widely, depending on the particular SA.

That's the basis for almost all such claims. The problem with
it is the description applies just as well to the carbs in
cauliflower and I do count the carbs in cauliflower. If I am to
have a consistent count I would need to ignore cauliflower and
all other similar low carb veggies.

Some have a relatively small impact on BG, hence they can be
discounted from the total carb impact. * If you google this group,
you'll find plenty of discussion on the pros/cons of SA, deducting
them, etc. * IMO, if you're doing say Atkins, beyond induction, losing
OK, not having cravings, etc, eating proper amounts of other food,
then including them in moderation and deducting them from the carb
count is OK.

Exactly. My caution is that proper amounts of food needs to
end up taking the sugar alcohols and such into account. It
is very easy to forget to do that if you're deducting.

On the other hand, if you're having problems and
consuming them with abandon, making them a main component of your
diet, thinking they are totally 0 carb, then that's another thing.

It's also a problem if you're using them as a crutch to keep
intact an old bad habit of eating the wrong food. There's a big
difference between eating a bite a couple of times per week
that gets counted against your daily food, and a daily snack
that doesn't.

rabbits77 wrote:

Is it true that you shouldn't count fiber and sugar alcohol carbs?

There's a lot of discussion on that.

This seems a little fishy to me...

Good. Be cautious about what claims you do or don't accept.

why is it these things don't count?

Sometimes there's good science behind it. Other times there
plentiful money behind a claim. Learn how to tell which.

How can you still eat a lot of fiber and still enter ketosis?

That's really the keystone here. If you're using Atkins and using
ketonuria to find your CCLL then you want to be deliberately in
ketonuriawhile you are losing and deliberately out of ketonuria
once you have already lost. In that sense it really resolves all
issues about carb counts - When using ketonuria all the carb
counts really do is teach you what type of day to day intake you
want. The counts become your way of telling if you're going to
stay in ketonuria losing or not (setting aside agruments that
loss happens with or without ketonuria). Your ketonuria will
teach you whether the deductions are tur for you or not and the
real answer isn't whether the deductions work for everyone (they
don't) but whether the deductions work for *you*.

Learning by experiment on yourself beats all of the discussion
in the world. So that's what I suggest - Find your CCLL using
total carbs by increasing until you spent a week out of ketonuria.
Then you know 5-10 under that count will put you in ketonuria.
Then see what your counts would be with fiber deduction. The
actual food won't be any different just the count because what
matters is the ketonuria not the count. Then try it using sugar
alcohols and see if you fall out of ketonuria. Because what
matters is the ketonuria not the count staying in or falling out
will teach you how your body reacts to sugar alcohols better
than all the studies and claims in the world.

And if you're on a plan that doesn't use ketonuria? Then the
issue doesn't matter except if eating the sugar alcohols stop
your loss.

Doug Freyburger wrote:
rabbits77 wrote:
Is it true that you shouldn't count fiber and sugar alcohol carbs?

There's a lot of discussion on that.

This seems a little fishy to me...

Good. Be cautious about what claims you do or don't accept.

why is it these things don't count?

Sometimes there's good science behind it. Other times there
plentiful money behind a claim. Learn how to tell which.

How can you still eat a lot of fiber and still enter ketosis?

That's really the keystone here. If you're using Atkins and using
ketonuria to find your CCLL then you want to be deliberately in
ketonuriawhile you are losing and deliberately out of ketonuria
once you have already lost. In that sense it really resolves all
issues about carb counts - When using ketonuria all the carb
counts really do is teach you what type of day to day intake you
want. The counts become your way of telling if you're going to
stay in ketonuria losing or not (setting aside agruments that
loss happens with or without ketonuria). Your ketonuria will
teach you whether the deductions are tur for you or not and the
real answer isn't whether the deductions work for everyone (they
don't) but whether the deductions work for *you*.

Learning by experiment on yourself beats all of the discussion
in the world. So that's what I suggest - Find your CCLL using
total carbs by increasing until you spent a week out of ketonuria.
Then you know 5-10 under that count will put you in ketonuria.
Then see what your counts would be with fiber deduction. The
actual food won't be any different just the count because what
matters is the ketonuria not the count. Then try it using sugar
alcohols and see if you fall out of ketonuria. Because what
matters is the ketonuria not the count staying in or falling out
will teach you how your body reacts to sugar alcohols better
than all the studies and claims in the world.

And if you're on a plan that doesn't use ketonuria? Then the
issue doesn't matter except if eating the sugar alcohols stop
your loss.
That makes perfect sense.
I am not measuring ketonuria but I have in the past.
I basically know at this point how I feel when my body switches
over into ketosis.
I am no doing Atkins but rather following a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet
as described by Lyle McDonald in his books.
Here is an amazon.com link if anyone is interested.
http://tinyurl.com/5vqtao
I have been eating a decent amount of peanuts and pistachios but
they are both high in fiber and so far it seems like the fiber is not
effecting ketosis.
I agree with other posters in this thread and don't really
really consume much, if any, sugar alcohols.
It sn't that I fear the carbs but mainly I just don't like sweets
to begin with so don't miss them.
Indeed, I am mainly on this diet not for weight loss but because
I think that my body doesn't seem to handle starches very well.
I believe, but have not proven, that my body overreacts
to starch consumption. I feel extremely lethargic and
get bloated if I eat a fairly normal diet.
I discovered this diet through my interest in weight lifting.
Many competetive body builders use this diet.
I do CKD instead of a fully ketogenic diet
because I think that while my body does not handle carbs well they are
still necessary for proper health so I consume them 1-2 days per week.

On Oct 29, 6:49 am, rabbits77 wrote:
Is it true that you shouldn't count fiber and sugar alcohol carbs?
This seems a little fishy to me...why is it these things don't count?
How can you still eat a lot of fiber and still enter ketosis?

hiiiiiiiiiiiiiican u help me

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:08:55 -0400, wrote
(in article
):

On Oct 29, 6:49 am, rabbits77 wrote:
Is it true that you shouldn't count fiber and sugar alcohol carbs?
This seems a little fishy to me...why is it these things don't count?
How can you still eat a lot of fiber and still enter ketosis?

hiiiiiiiiiiiiiican u help me

Probably not.

--
Steve

rabbits77 wrote:
Is it true that you shouldn't count fiber and sugar alcohol carbs?
This seems a little fishy to me...why is it these things don't count?
How can you still eat a lot of fiber and still enter ketosis?

Fiber is indigestible.