Invitation to discuss low-calorie approaches to weight-loss on alt.support.diet.low-calorie

On the long hot summer day of Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:37:51 -0700, Art Deco
dribbled:

Clearly you remain convicted by the Holy Spirit:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convects

Oh, oh, no! the macro's broken (or maybe it's just a climate change)

The teddy bear main page is still up, so perhaps Chung finally saw the
futility of keeping a hate list.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

Ab, ur xrrcf zvffcryyvat uvf HEY.

"Caleb" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 6, 11:29 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Caleb" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Feb 6, 8:42 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message

groups.com...

"teachrmama" wrote:

So do you think he deliberately plans to regain it? Or do you
think
he
fails to plan (a maintenance program) therefore he "plans to fail"
because
of the lack of a maintenance program?

That's it. The first year it was fails to plan. The second year it
was fails
to plan. By the fourth year it was plans to fail. Each year there
has to
be some expectation of learning. At some point it evolves from
fails
to
plan to plans to fail to intends to regain.

And nobody else here has ever done
something similar (gaining and losing a number of times before they
got
it
right)? Caleb is very up front with his successes and failures, so
it's
easy to criticize him. How many of us would like our successes and
failures
paraded out in similar fashion? I know I wouldn't!! (Or maybe I'm
the
only
one here who ever lost, regained, lost, regained, before I finally
got
it
right)

I lose and regain as well. What I finally learned is that if I
declare an
end date that means I have declared a day when I plan on starting to
regain. Lots of people on ASD have tried various ways to get that
through to Caleb so I picked a way of saying that same thing that I
couldn't find anyone else had used.

Having phases last some number of days is fine. Having the diet
last some number of days isn't. Though I lose and regain, I stay on
some phase of my plan. It is a mental difference - Staying on plan
is the right thing to do so when I am regaining I'm doing the wrong
thing not returning to normal.

I don't even consider the way I am choosing to eat now to be a diet.
It
is
a way of life. I agree with you about arbitrary end dates. It's like
saying that the train takes 12 hours to get to Chicago, aso I'm
getting
off
in 12 hours no matter what. But telling somebody that the fact that
they
set an end date makes them an untouchable because they have don the
same
thing so many times before is not going to be helpful at all. I'm
glad I
was never given up on as hopeless.

About the arbitrary deadline -- Well, we end school classes at a
certain time (perhaps 50 minutes), pay taxes at a certain time, go in
for yearly check-ups at a certain time, do Spring cleaning at a
certain time.

When I used to run long distances, I would set for myself a goal of
getting to a distant point, and then once I made that point, I would
set another goal.

Seems to me that a lot of people do similar things, perhaps clean
their houses while a certain record is playing, etc. Whatever it takes
to help them focus on the task at hand and maintain their behavior
over time. Perfection is certainly an ideal to be striven for, but if
we tell people that perfection is required, as is the total commitment
to a given way of behavior for the rest of their lives, I think a lot
of people would be scared away, and a lot would see any faltering as
clear proof that the goals are beyond them. Also it is unrealistic to
demand that people comply with such a regimen, I think.

Just my two cents about different methods of maintaining motivation
over some difficult portions of time.

Rather that a time goal, I do have a certain weight loss goal. That is
when
I will begin the Maintenance portion of my new way of life. I would
certainly like to ahve reached my goal one year from when I started--but
I
will not change back to how I ate before when I getto ether the one year
mark or the weight goal. And the way of eating I follow now is not a
stringent "thou shalt not" sort of plan. It is liveable--which is why it
is
working for me. I agree with you about the perfection thing--even the
smallest thing can spoil perfection, which makes it unworkable for the
vast
majority of the human race. So--just because I am insatiebly
curious--how
exactly are you setting up your eating program when you get to
maintenance?
You've mentioned the scale, but do you have any sort of a food plan in
mind?
=c)

Teachrmama -- I don't know exactly exactly. My daughter is vegetarian
and I certainly will emphasize the green and growing things. Limited
meals, reasonable amounts of exercise, less or no beer -- those
things all make sense to me. Like most people, i have difficulty
tracking calories regularly but I sure am willing to do this if the
scales show a reason to.

And as I said, I'm taking pictures of myself each Monday evening and I
will keep a series of those in my kitchen. It's too easy to forget
where one has been as time goes on. Reminds me of the quote by the
psychologist Zimbardo who said that the elderly think of themselves as
young, only in older skin. I agree with that also with a lot of
overweight people -- that is, they still think of themselves as less
overweight. So I think pictorial evidence of previous overweight vs
current standard weight is likely to be very useful. Indeed, perhaps a
weekly picture from here on out will be useful.

I think the scale is the most important thing, however, because it is
the canary in the coal mine well before other important and negative
consequences of overweight arise.

The scale and I will continue to be great friends! (I'm thinking of
hanging my car keys on it, and so whenever I drive somewhere, I will
weigh myself. Might even help with global warming!)

And of course other behavioral methods are good -- leave the kitchen
at 7 PM and eat nothing more after that -- that by itself will save a
lot of evening calories.


Sounds really good, Caleb. I wish you well in your maintenance efforts.
=c)

On Feb 7, 6:10 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Caleb" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Feb 6, 11:29 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Caleb" wrote in message

groups.com...

On Feb 6, 8:42 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message

groups.com...

"teachrmama" wrote:

So do you think he deliberately plans to regain it? Or do you
think
he
fails to plan (a maintenance program) therefore he "plans to fail"
because
of the lack of a maintenance program?

That's it. The first year it was fails to plan. The second year it
was fails
to plan. By the fourth year it was plans to fail. Each year there
has to
be some expectation of learning. At some point it evolves from
fails
to
plan to plans to fail to intends to regain.

And nobody else here has ever done
something similar (gaining and losing a number of times before they
got
it
right)? Caleb is very up front with his successes and failures, so
it's
easy to criticize him. How many of us would like our successes and
failures
paraded out in similar fashion? I know I wouldn't!! (Or maybe I'm
the
only
one here who ever lost, regained, lost, regained, before I finally
got
it
right)

I lose and regain as well. What I finally learned is that if I
declare an
end date that means I have declared a day when I plan on starting to
regain. Lots of people on ASD have tried various ways to get that
through to Caleb so I picked a way of saying that same thing that I
couldn't find anyone else had used.

Having phases last some number of days is fine. Having the diet
last some number of days isn't. Though I lose and regain, I stay on
some phase of my plan. It is a mental difference - Staying on plan
is the right thing to do so when I am regaining I'm doing the wrong
thing not returning to normal.

I don't even consider the way I am choosing to eat now to be a diet.
It
is
a way of life. I agree with you about arbitrary end dates. It's like
saying that the train takes 12 hours to get to Chicago, aso I'm
getting
off
in 12 hours no matter what. But telling somebody that the fact that
they
set an end date makes them an untouchable because they have don the
same
thing so many times before is not going to be helpful at all. I'm
glad I
was never given up on as hopeless.

About the arbitrary deadline -- Well, we end school classes at a
certain time (perhaps 50 minutes), pay taxes at a certain time, go in
for yearly check-ups at a certain time, do Spring cleaning at a
certain time.

When I used to run long distances, I would set for myself a goal of
getting to a distant point, and then once I made that point, I would
set another goal.

Seems to me that a lot of people do similar things, perhaps clean
their houses while a certain record is playing, etc. Whatever it takes
to help them focus on the task at hand and maintain their behavior
over time. Perfection is certainly an ideal to be striven for, but if
we tell people that perfection is required, as is the total commitment
to a given way of behavior for the rest of their lives, I think a lot
of people would be scared away, and a lot would see any faltering as
clear proof that the goals are beyond them. Also it is unrealistic to
demand that people comply with such a regimen, I think.

Just my two cents about different methods of maintaining motivation
over some difficult portions of time.

Rather that a time goal, I do have a certain weight loss goal. That is
when
I will begin the Maintenance portion of my new way of life. I would
certainly like to ahve reached my goal one year from when I started--but
I
will not change back to how I ate before when I getto ether the one year
mark or the weight goal. And the way of eating I follow now is not a
stringent "thou shalt not" sort of plan. It is liveable--which is why it
is
working for me. I agree with you about the perfection thing--even the
smallest thing can spoil perfection, which makes it unworkable for the
vast
majority of the human race. So--just because I am insatiebly
curious--how
exactly are you setting up your eating program when you get to
maintenance?
You've mentioned the scale, but do you have any sort of a food plan in
mind?
=c)

Teachrmama -- I don't know exactly exactly. My daughter is vegetarian
and I certainly will emphasize the green and growing things. Limited
meals, reasonable amounts of exercise, less or no beer -- those
things all make sense to me. Like most people, i have difficulty
tracking calories regularly but I sure am willing to do this if the
scales show a reason to.

And as I said, I'm taking pictures of myself each Monday evening and I
will keep a series of those in my kitchen. It's too easy to forget
where one has been as time goes on. Reminds me of the quote by the
psychologist Zimbardo who said that the elderly think of themselves as
young, only in older skin. I agree with that also with a lot of
overweight people -- that is, they still think of themselves as less
overweight. So I think pictorial evidence of previous overweight vs
current standard weight is likely to be very useful. Indeed, perhaps a
weekly picture from here on out will be useful.

I think the scale is the most important thing, however, because it is
the canary in the coal mine well before other important and negative
consequences of overweight arise.

The scale and I will continue to be great friends! (I'm thinking of
hanging my car keys on it, and so whenever I drive somewhere, I will
weigh myself. Might even help with global warming!)

And of course other behavioral methods are good -- leave the kitchen
at 7 PM and eat nothing more after that -- that by itself will save a
lot of evening calories.

Sounds really good, Caleb. I wish you well in your maintenance efforts.
=c)

Teachrmama --

Thanks for your words!

These are the results of the three 100 Day programs I've completed
thus far. (I tried to complete another one but got too involved in
answering messages, etc.)

Starting on 8-17-99 I went from 276 to 226, a loss of 50 pounds.

On 8-10-01, I went from 241 to 200, a lost of 41 pounds, and

On 8-19-02, I went from 239 pounds to 198 pounds.

I'm pretty much on schedule now to match the early schedules - perhaps
a pound behind the lines for the first and third schedule.

All three of these were quite simple to do - very painless - and they
certainly demonstrated to me the effectiveness of calorie restriction
in losing weight. The three programs also demonstrated other things as
well, including:

1. the problems with bad or distractive advice,
2. the need to focus on calories and exercise,
3. the need to just keep at it even if people are highly critical of
what you are doing (it sure is the case that people live in food-toxic
environments),
4. for me, the importance of daily weighing (this might bother some
people but the way I do it is very motivating to me),
5. adopting a simple eating schedule with a limited variety of foods,
and
6. avoiding bread and putting away the alcohol.
(Also, if I eat too much in one day, I try to make up for it in the
next several days.)

I hope never to have to go on a weight control diet after this one but
I sure know how to go about losing weight again if I do gain. Still
then, I sure wish I was at appropriate weight right now, but that will
come in the fullness of time.

Again, this process is just not that painful.

I am more fortunate than most people here on this Usenet group in
terms of losing weight. I'm a guy, and so it's easier for me to lose
weight than it would be for a woman. Also my weight is fairly high -
245 pounds - and so even carrying the extra 45 pounds requires about
585 calories a day (45 times 13). If I were a 130 pound female who
didn't exercise, I'd need only about 130 times 11 calories to maintain
my weight (1430). And any more than that and I probably would put on
some weight (everything else being equal). I could eat 1430 in a big
breakfast and still want another heap of pancakes - at least I could
when I was eating freely. But those days are over. (Sigh!)

On the other hand, I've heard nutritionists say that our dietary goals
in general should be something like 1400 calories for women and 1700
calories for men. Sounds pretty glum to me but, as Franklin said, "We
should eat to live and not live to eat!" I guess, suppose, can
convince myself, etc., that he was right. Death and disability have a
way of ruining our time here on earth. I'd hate to rush out early!

Yours truly,

Caleb
Day 38, 20 pounds gone
265/245/200 (I hope I get to 200 by June)

"Caleb" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 7, 6:10 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Caleb" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Feb 6, 11:29 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Caleb" wrote in message

groups.com...

On Feb 6, 8:42 pm, "teachrmama" wrote:
"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message

groups.com...

"teachrmama" wrote:

So do you think he deliberately plans to regain it? Or do you
think
he
fails to plan (a maintenance program) therefore he "plans to
fail"
because
of the lack of a maintenance program?

That's it. The first year it was fails to plan. The second year
it
was fails
to plan. By the fourth year it was plans to fail. Each year
there
has to
be some expectation of learning. At some point it evolves from
fails
to
plan to plans to fail to intends to regain.

And nobody else here has ever done
something similar (gaining and losing a number of times before
they
got
it
right)? Caleb is very up front with his successes and failures,
so
it's
easy to criticize him. How many of us would like our successes
and
failures
paraded out in similar fashion? I know I wouldn't!! (Or maybe
I'm
the
only
one here who ever lost, regained, lost, regained, before I
finally
got
it
right)

I lose and regain as well. What I finally learned is that if I
declare an
end date that means I have declared a day when I plan on starting
to
regain. Lots of people on ASD have tried various ways to get
that
through to Caleb so I picked a way of saying that same thing that
I
couldn't find anyone else had used.

Having phases last some number of days is fine. Having the diet
last some number of days isn't. Though I lose and regain, I stay
on
some phase of my plan. It is a mental difference - Staying on
plan
is the right thing to do so when I am regaining I'm doing the
wrong
thing not returning to normal.

I don't even consider the way I am choosing to eat now to be a
diet.
It
is
a way of life. I agree with you about arbitrary end dates. It's
like
saying that the train takes 12 hours to get to Chicago, aso I'm
getting
off
in 12 hours no matter what. But telling somebody that the fact
that
they
set an end date makes them an untouchable because they have don the
same
thing so many times before is not going to be helpful at all. I'm
glad I
was never given up on as hopeless.

About the arbitrary deadline -- Well, we end school classes at a
certain time (perhaps 50 minutes), pay taxes at a certain time, go
in
for yearly check-ups at a certain time, do Spring cleaning at a
certain time.

When I used to run long distances, I would set for myself a goal of
getting to a distant point, and then once I made that point, I would
set another goal.

Seems to me that a lot of people do similar things, perhaps clean
their houses while a certain record is playing, etc. Whatever it
takes
to help them focus on the task at hand and maintain their behavior
over time. Perfection is certainly an ideal to be striven for, but
if
we tell people that perfection is required, as is the total
commitment
to a given way of behavior for the rest of their lives, I think a
lot
of people would be scared away, and a lot would see any faltering as
clear proof that the goals are beyond them. Also it is unrealistic
to
demand that people comply with such a regimen, I think.

Just my two cents about different methods of maintaining motivation
over some difficult portions of time.

Rather that a time goal, I do have a certain weight loss goal. That is
when
I will begin the Maintenance portion of my new way of life. I would
certainly like to ahve reached my goal one year from when I
started--but
I
will not change back to how I ate before when I getto ether the one
year
mark or the weight goal. And the way of eating I follow now is not a
stringent "thou shalt not" sort of plan. It is liveable--which is why
it
is
working for me. I agree with you about the perfection thing--even the
smallest thing can spoil perfection, which makes it unworkable for the
vast
majority of the human race. So--just because I am insatiebly
curious--how
exactly are you setting up your eating program when you get to
maintenance?
You've mentioned the scale, but do you have any sort of a food plan in
mind?
=c)

Teachrmama -- I don't know exactly exactly. My daughter is vegetarian
and I certainly will emphasize the green and growing things. Limited
meals, reasonable amounts of exercise, less or no beer -- those
things all make sense to me. Like most people, i have difficulty
tracking calories regularly but I sure am willing to do this if the
scales show a reason to.

And as I said, I'm taking pictures of myself each Monday evening and I
will keep a series of those in my kitchen. It's too easy to forget
where one has been as time goes on. Reminds me of the quote by the
psychologist Zimbardo who said that the elderly think of themselves as
young, only in older skin. I agree with that also with a lot of
overweight people -- that is, they still think of themselves as less
overweight. So I think pictorial evidence of previous overweight vs
current standard weight is likely to be very useful. Indeed, perhaps a
weekly picture from here on out will be useful.

I think the scale is the most important thing, however, because it is
the canary in the coal mine well before other important and negative
consequences of overweight arise.

The scale and I will continue to be great friends! (I'm thinking of
hanging my car keys on it, and so whenever I drive somewhere, I will
weigh myself. Might even help with global warming!)

And of course other behavioral methods are good -- leave the kitchen
at 7 PM and eat nothing more after that -- that by itself will save a
lot of evening calories.

Sounds really good, Caleb. I wish you well in your maintenance efforts.
=c)

Teachrmama --

Thanks for your words!

These are the results of the three 100 Day programs I've completed
thus far. (I tried to complete another one but got too involved in
answering messages, etc.)

Starting on 8-17-99 I went from 276 to 226, a loss of 50 pounds.

On 8-10-01, I went from 241 to 200, a lost of 41 pounds, and

On 8-19-02, I went from 239 pounds to 198 pounds.

I'm pretty much on schedule now to match the early schedules - perhaps
a pound behind the lines for the first and third schedule.

All three of these were quite simple to do - very painless - and they
certainly demonstrated to me the effectiveness of calorie restriction
in losing weight. The three programs also demonstrated other things as
well, including:

1. the problems with bad or distractive advice,
2. the need to focus on calories and exercise,
3. the need to just keep at it even if people are highly critical of
what you are doing (it sure is the case that people live in food-toxic
environments),
4. for me, the importance of daily weighing (this might bother some
people but the way I do it is very motivating to me),
5. adopting a simple eating schedule with a limited variety of foods,
and
6. avoiding bread and putting away the alcohol.
(Also, if I eat too much in one day, I try to make up for it in the
next several days.)

I hope never to have to go on a weight control diet after this one but
I sure know how to go about losing weight again if I do gain. Still
then, I sure wish I was at appropriate weight right now, but that will
come in the fullness of time.

Again, this process is just not that painful.

I am more fortunate than most people here on this Usenet group in
terms of losing weight. I'm a guy, and so it's easier for me to lose
weight than it would be for a woman. Also my weight is fairly high -
245 pounds - and so even carrying the extra 45 pounds requires about
585 calories a day (45 times 13). If I were a 130 pound female who
didn't exercise, I'd need only about 130 times 11 calories to maintain
my weight (1430). And any more than that and I probably would put on
some weight (everything else being equal). I could eat 1430 in a big
breakfast and still want another heap of pancakes - at least I could
when I was eating freely. But those days are over. (Sigh!)

On the other hand, I've heard nutritionists say that our dietary goals
in general should be something like 1400 calories for women and 1700
calories for men. Sounds pretty glum to me but, as Franklin said, "We
should eat to live and not live to eat!" I guess, suppose, can
convince myself, etc., that he was right. Death and disability have a
way of ruining our time here on earth. I'd hate to rush out early!


I certainly wish you the best, Caleb. I understand your desire to get rid
of the unwanted weight quickly. I know, for me, going totally outside of my
usual eating patterns just to solve the problem of excess pounds always came
back and bit me in the proverbial tush later on, because I had not formed
any good habits along the way. This time, I have adopted a way of eating
that I can follow forever. Like you, I monitor my weight daily, and
restrict my choices--but only for breakfast and lunch--dinner can be just
about anything. (Tonight I baked some delicious honey-barbecue
chicken--yum!!) I think, perhaps, the crux of your whole experience this
time will be how you do in your maintenance phase. I hope you keep posting
here so we can see how you do. ou certainly know well enough how calories
work, and you have made a commitment not only to weight loss, but to
maintaining that loss this time around. May January 08 see you looking back
at January 07 as your last 100 day diet. =c)

Caleb, Mu here.

Counting calories is such an inexact computation as to be practically
worthless. Would you care for Mu to explain?

Cals in, cals out, thermodynamics OK, real usefulness = ZERO.

Reg exercise is of no real ongoing value for overconsumption control,
so
few can or elect to do so. Scratch that.

Person Spake:

Rubbish...plenty of successful weight loss has been achieved with the
assistance of exercise.

Mu: I never said that exercise wasn't a valued assist. Considering I
spent 7 years training athletes for asspennies, I would suggest that you
are way out of Truth with your forcibly false interp of my comment.

Imagine that.

The National Weight Control Registry has been studying the common
characteristcs and strategies employed by folks who've lost significant
amounts of weight (avg. 30 kg) and kept it off for five years or longer.
According to their research, their subjects "also appear to be highly
active: they reported expending approximately 11830 kJ/wk (2825 kcal/wk)
through physical activity". That's an average of 400 calories per day
in
physical activity...or, about an hour of fairly vigorous effort.

The act of commiting oneself to an exercise program can also help with
the
"overconsumption control" you mention. When one is committed to getting
fit, it naturally follows that one will pay more attention to what one
ingests (at least, it does for many of us)..

I does so very few that the numbers are not relative at all. 95% of
people fail on their diets. Take whatever % of those and add in
exercise. They stop, they fail to continue to exercise. there is an
entire industry that is built on the motel room concept. Check in, check
out. Ask LA Fitness or Gold's Gym, as I have, to give you their rollover
data.

Or, take my own gyms. Even athletes crap out on training and exercise
over time.

Sure, the supremely committed, wealthy, no job, have oodles of spare
time, they can do well in an exercise environment. The rest of us, not a
chance if you believe you have to exercise to lose and control weight.

On 5 Feb 2007 08:12:43 -0800, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

Those who choose to unwisely engage in strenuous exercise while obese
typically end up being worse off when they sustain injury which often
is attributed to osteoarthritis rather than to the exercise. What is
clinically observed is that once people are lean and trim from eating
less, they find themselves more capable of exercising strenuously more
comfortably and with less injury.

Indeed, that has been my own
personal experience now physically able to run ultramarathons not
because of training but because of losing all my visceral adipose
tissue (VAT),

Undeniably so, Andrew.


Hey, that's pretty cool...

On 5 Feb 2007 08:12:43 -0800, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

The truth is cool.

I'm sure many athletes would be interested in that
"training strategy".

On 5 Feb 2007 08:12:43 -0800, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

The world class athletes already know that the hungrier they are the
more capable they physically become.

When an athlete loses in a competition where s/he was a physical match
with his/her competitior, s/he knows that s/he was not hungry enough.

In countries where the brainwashing that "hunger is bad" does not
occur (ie Kenya), the runners are leaner, trimmer, and much faster
because they know in their hearts that "hunger is good."

The psychology of this is amazing, it revolves around the realistic view
of what is truly discomforting and what is life endangering and what is
truly nothing more than an inconvenience.

Truth is absolute and invincible.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life..." -- LORD Jesus Christ

Amen ! Laus Deo ! ! ! Marana tha ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Andrew
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://EmoryCardiology.com

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On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:42:41 -0800, Don Kirkman wrote:

A Google search for Andrew Chung in ultramarathon results came up empty.
Since ultra running is such a small, tight-knit community I think the
sudden appearance of an unknown would have been remarked on by somebody
along the way.

[. . .]

This tight knot community, of which I trained several ultra-athletes,
not o one of them comes up on any search yet i watched them myself start
and finish.

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friend Mu wrote:
Caleb, Mu here.

Counting calories is such an inexact computation as to be practically
worthless. Would you care for Mu to explain?

Cals in, cals out, thermodynamics OK, real usefulness = ZERO.

Reg exercise is of no real ongoing value for overconsumption control,
so
few can or elect to do so. Scratch that.

Person Spake:

Rubbish...plenty of successful weight loss has been achieved with the
assistance of exercise.

Mu: I never said that exercise wasn't a valued assist. Considering I
spent 7 years training athletes for asspennies, I would suggest that you
are way out of Truth with your forcibly false interp of my comment.

Imagine that.

The National Weight Control Registry has been studying the common
characteristcs and strategies employed by folks who've lost significant
amounts of weight (avg. 30 kg) and kept it off for five years or longer.
According to their research, their subjects "also appear to be highly
active: they reported expending approximately 11830 kJ/wk (2825 kcal/wk)
through physical activity". That's an average of 400 calories per day
in
physical activity...or, about an hour of fairly vigorous effort.

The act of commiting oneself to an exercise program can also help with
the
"overconsumption control" you mention. When one is committed to getting
fit, it naturally follows that one will pay more attention to what one
ingests (at least, it does for many of us)..

I does so very few that the numbers are not relative at all. 95% of
people fail on their diets. Take whatever % of those and add in
exercise. They stop, they fail to continue to exercise. there is an
entire industry that is built on the motel room concept. Check in, check
out. Ask LA Fitness or Gold's Gym, as I have, to give you their rollover
data.

Or, take my own gyms. Even athletes crap out on training and exercise
over time.

Sure, the supremely committed, wealthy, no job, have oodles of spare
time, they can do well in an exercise environment. The rest of us, not a
chance if you believe you have to exercise to lose and control weight.

On 5 Feb 2007 08:12:43 -0800, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

Those who choose to unwisely engage in strenuous exercise while obese
typically end up being worse off when they sustain injury which often
is attributed to osteoarthritis rather than to the exercise. What is
clinically observed is that once people are lean and trim from eating
less, they find themselves more capable of exercising strenuously more
comfortably and with less injury.

Indeed, that has been my own
personal experience now physically able to run ultramarathons not
because of training but because of losing all my visceral adipose
tissue (VAT),

Undeniably so, Andrew.


Hey, that's pretty cool...

On 5 Feb 2007 08:12:43 -0800, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

The truth is cool.

I'm sure many athletes would be interested in that
"training strategy".

On 5 Feb 2007 08:12:43 -0800, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

The world class athletes already know that the hungrier they are the
more capable they physically become.

When an athlete loses in a competition where s/he was a physical match
with his/her competitior, s/he knows that s/he was not hungry enough.

In countries where the brainwashing that "hunger is bad" does not
occur (ie Kenya), the runners are leaner, trimmer, and much faster
because they know in their hearts that "hunger is good."

The psychology of this is amazing, it revolves around the realistic view
of what is truly discomforting and what is life endangering and what is
truly nothing more than an inconvenience.

The truth is amazing.

May you and I continue to be hungry.

Truth is absolute and invincible.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life..." -- LORD Jesus Christ

Amen ! Laus Deo ! ! ! Marana tha ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Andrew
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://EmoryCardiology.com

convicted neighbor GaryG wrote:
Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
convicted neighbor GaryG wrote:
Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:

snip


Those who choose to unwisely engage in strenuous exercise while obese
typically end up being worse off when they sustain injury which often
is attributed to osteoarthritis rather than to the exercise. What is
clinically observed is that once people are lean and trim from eating
less, they find themselves more capable of exercising strenuously more
comfortably and with less injury.

Indeed, that has been my own
personal experience now physically able to run ultramarathons not
because of training but because of losing all my visceral adipose
tissue (VAT),

Hey, that's pretty cool...

The truth is cool.

I'm sure many athletes would be interested in that
"training strategy".

The world class athletes already know that the hungrier they are the
more capable they physically become.

Bizarre...

Truth seems bizarre to the untruthful.

can you cite any studies or articles supporting this assertion
(other than the voices in your head)?

Simply recall the history of ex-champion Mike Tyson.

It was lean&trim&hungry Mike Tyson that was feared.

When an athlete loses in a competition where s/he was a physical match
with his/her competitor, s/he knows that s/he was not hungry enough.

Again...any proof of this?

This is common knowledge.

LORD Almighty GOD is the Source of all true knowledge and wisdom.

Your lack of knowledge simply shows you are without GOD's favor.

In countries where the brainwashing that "hunger is bad" does not
occur (ie Kenya), the runners are leaner, trimmer, and much faster
because they know in their hearts that "hunger is good."

Yeah, I heard the Auschwitz 10,000 meter relay team was world class.

Starving people are not hungry.

BTW - as usual, you ducked my earlier question: "Have you ever actually
completed an ultramarathon...?"

In the Holy Spirit, I know HE has made me able.

You asserted in your post above that you were capable of running an
"ultramarathon" (typically, 50 or 100 miles, per
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon ). Have you done so, or is this
just another delusion of grandeur on your part?

It is knowledge from the Holy Spirit.

Clearly you remain convicted by the Holy Spirit:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts

May you wisely choose to surrender to HIM by publicly confessing with
your mouth that "Jesus is LORD:"

http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/TheWay

Marana tha !

Andrew
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://EmoryCardiology.com

On Feb 8, 8:38 am, Mu wrote:
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:42:41 -0800, Don Kirkman wrote:
A Google search for Andrew Chung in ultramarathon results came up empty.
Since ultra running is such a small, tight-knit community I think the
sudden appearance of an unknown would have been remarked on by somebody
along the way.

[. . .]

This tight knot community, of which I trained several ultra-athletes,
not o one of them comes up on any search yet i watched them myself start
and finish.


Did you train Chung? has he run an ultramarathon? What was his time?

"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
oups.com...
convicted neighbor GaryG wrote:
Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
convicted neighbor GaryG wrote:
Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:

snip


Those who choose to unwisely engage in strenuous exercise while
obese
typically end up being worse off when they sustain injury which
often
is attributed to osteoarthritis rather than to the exercise. What
is
clinically observed is that once people are lean and trim from
eating
less, they find themselves more capable of exercising strenuously
more
comfortably and with less injury.

Indeed, that has been my own
personal experience now physically able to run ultramarathons not
because of training but because of losing all my visceral adipose
tissue (VAT),

Hey, that's pretty cool...

The truth is cool.

I'm sure many athletes would be interested in that
"training strategy".

The world class athletes already know that the hungrier they are the
more capable they physically become.

Bizarre...

Truth seems bizarre to the untruthful.

No...you seem bizarre to the rational.


can you cite any studies or articles supporting this assertion
(other than the voices in your head)?

Simply recall the history of ex-champion Mike Tyson.

Or, in other words, "No", you can't.


It was lean&trim&hungry Mike Tyson that was feared.

When an athlete loses in a competition where s/he was a physical match
with his/her competitor, s/he knows that s/he was not hungry enough.

Again...any proof of this?

This is common knowledge.

No, it's not.

LORD Almighty GOD is the Source of all true knowledge and wisdom.

Your lack of knowledge simply shows you are without GOD's favor.

Your thinking that you have "God's favor" is pretty ironic...did your God
"favor" you when he got you fired from your one and only job as a
cardiologist after less than 3 months?

In countries where the brainwashing that "hunger is bad" does not
occur (ie Kenya), the runners are leaner, trimmer, and much faster
because they know in their hearts that "hunger is good."

Yeah, I heard the Auschwitz 10,000 meter relay team was world class.

Starving people are not hungry.

BTW - as usual, you ducked my earlier question: "Have you ever actually
completed an ultramarathon...?"

In the Holy Spirit, I know HE has made me able.

Or, in other words, "No", you've never actually run an ultramarathon, or a
standard marathon.


You asserted in your post above that you were capable of running an
"ultramarathon" (typically, 50 or 100 miles, per
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarathon ). Have you done so, or is
this
just another delusion of grandeur on your part?

It is knowledge from the Holy Spirit.

Be careful with that...if the "Holy Spirit" voice in your head tells you
that you can fly off of a tall building because you've been granted "God's
favor", you may find that the laws of science can trump your most fevered
faith.

Clearly you remain convicted by the Holy Spirit:

Clearly, you remain possessed by the voices in your head.

GG


http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convects

May you wisely choose to surrender to HIM by publicly confessing with
your mouth that "Jesus is LORD:"

http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirat/TheWay

Marana tha !

Andrew
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://EmoryCardialogy.com