Metabolism Crash: Fact or Fiction?

On 12 Mar 2004 09:05:18 -0500, DJ Delorie wrote:


"Jenny" writes:
I checked out your daily calorie calculator, but the results it returns are
W-A-Y off for me. For starters, the lean body mass it gives me is 9 pounds
lower (9%) than what I get when they do body fat measurements with calipers.

They're way off for me too. I need to add spaces for the user to
enter their own %bf and a few other things, for when they measured
them themselves. Body frame size is probably another one.

Whoa! It told me that my ideal body weight is 30837 pounds!

I'm 5'1.5'' tall, and I didn't want to lose "credit" for that extra half
inch, so I put my height in in centimeters (156). It gave me some bizarre
results. I tried 5'1 and 5'2 in feet/inches, and they looked much more
reasonable. Then I realized that it was using the 156 as _meters_, not
centimeters. (I tried 1.56 "centimeters" and it worked.)

It was odd being told that my lean body mass was higher than my total
weight -- but it was fun having a negative body fat percentage :-)

Em

Jenny wrote:
:: Roger,
::
:: There are bits and pieces scattered around medical journals
:: describing how blood sugar control deteriorates. Nothing ties it all
:: together yet.
::
:: A couple important things: some people lose fasting blood sugar
:: control but maintain their 2-hr glucose tolerance. I.e. they don't
:: spike to 200 mg/dl after a lot of carbs but wake up over 126 mg/dl.
:: . These tend to be heavy people with intense insulin resistance.The
:: way diabetes is diagnosed in the US--using the fasting test--these
:: are the main group of folks getting diagnosed.
::
:: There is another group, more common in some European populations and
:: among older women, who are not necessarily fat and may not be
:: terribly insulin resistant, but who see deteriorated 2-hr glucose
:: response but maintain normal or near normal fasting blood sugar.
:: That's the group I fall into. We seem to be the folks who have a
:: problem with our beta cells dying off for some reason. Eventually
:: when enough beta cells go, our fasting control goes too.
::
:: Finally, there are folks who fit both categories--lousy fasting
:: blood sugar and lousy post-meal values. This happens to obese
:: insulin resistant people after a long time of elevated fasting blood
:: sugars. Whatever your path, when you have lost both 2-hr response
:: and fasting response, you probably have said good bye to 85% of your
:: beta cells and blood sugar control can deteriorate from mildly
:: diabetic to utterly screwed (300 mg/dl and over) in a matter of just
:: a few years.
::
:: There is still a huge debate in the research world about what
:: exactly it is that kills off the beta cells in type 2s.
:: High blood sugar levels, high levels of circulating FFA, some defect
:: in the cells that causes them to self-destruct when they reproduce,
:: Amyloid deposits in the pancreas catalyzed by apolipoprotein-e, etc
:: etc. But there is some very good evidence that high circulating
:: blood sugar levels will kill healthy beta cells implanted into
:: otherwise completely normal mice. Which is why you want to avoid
:: high post meal blood sugar levels at all times.
::
:: The only way to estimate how many beta cells you have is to have a
:: C-Peptide test done which shows how much circulating insulin you
:: have. If there's a huge amount, then you still have cells. As the
:: cells die off, the C-peptide levels come down, until when you are
:: completely insulin dependent, you have none left.

Is this a common test? I'm going to the doctor next friday so maybe I ought
to see about getting this one done. I also need to check my records as it
may have been part of the tests they do.

::
:: I've got a bunch of stuff to read on this subject and not a lot of
:: time to read it right now, but I will report back when I get to it.
::

Thanks for the info, Jenny!

::
:: --Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2
:: diabetes, hba1c 5.2.
:: Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
::
:: Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
:: strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
:: http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
::
:: Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
:: Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm
::
::
::
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
:: ...
::: Jenny wrote:
::::: Roger,
:::::
::::: If you were able to reverse your diabetes with weight loss (which
::::: a very small number of people can do) you are fortunate. However,
::::: the fact that you could become diabetic when your body is
::::: stressed (in your case by weight) means that you need to keep
::::: monitoring and restricting carbs because the underlying defect
::::: still exists and
::::: over time it will whittle away more of your beta cells.
:::
::: I agree. In fact, I don't consider my diabetes reversed...I
::: consider it to be "under control".
:::
::: And I do monitor, though not during carbups since typically I'm
::: eating all the time.
:::
:::::
::::: I was only diabetic while pregnant and 50 pounds heavier than
::::: usual
::::: in my 30s. I'm diabetic now no matter what I weigh. In fact, one
::::: of the most depressing things about this last stint of weight
::::: loss was that I was so sure that if I could get back to my old
::::: non-diabetic weight, I wouldn't be diabetic. But at 137 lbs I
::::: still had rotten blood sugar response. That's because I no
::::: longer have anywhere near as many living beta cells as I had when
::::: I was younger, because high blood sugars in the intervening 18
::::: years gradually killed them off, though I was not running
::::: diabetic level blood sugars, just
::::: moderately elevated ones.
:::::
::::: So if you eat a ton of carbs you should monitor. If you are going
::::: over 140 mg/dl at 2 hours after intake,
:::
::: Yeah, that would be hard....since on a carb up I'd probably eat
::: something within two hours...
:::
::: you are still lowly
::::: destroying your beta cells. There's been some discussion about
::::: this
::::: on alt.support.diabetes, and I've been doing some research lately
::::: reading old studies to see what truly normal blood sugars looks
::::: like, and what I'm coming up with suggests that 2-h post meal
::::: numbers over 140 mg/dl spell big trouble over time. In fact, even
::::: numbers over 120 mg/dl might be.
:::
::: What does 'over time' mean? Other than January this year, when I
::: did UD2, it has been rare that I'd carb up more than once in a
::: month. I don't need to. And prior to that I'd be watching carbs
::: strictly and working out hard. Does any of your data track people
::: who really *try* to burn calories hard with cardio and weight
::: training?
:::
:::::
::::: The way that it works, which most people don't realize, is that
::::: in
::::: an insulin resistant person blood sugar response stays fairly
::::: level for many, many years, until 85% of beta cells die. At that
::::: point there's a "whoosh" upwards and within 3 years you can go
::::: from almost normal blood sugar to diabetic as the next 5 and 10%
::::: of the cells
::::: die off.
:::::
:::
::: Is there a test for remaining beta cells?
:::
::::: Since you've already been diabetic, you know that your beta cells
::::: aren't normal. A normal obese person simply makes more beta cells.
::::: An obese person with early diabetes starts losing cells when they
::::: try to divide. This seems to be one of the early defects of
::::: diabetes. So it is likely that you've already lost some of your
::::: beta cells already. However, with less weight you need less beta
::::: cells to keep your blood sugar under control.
:::
::: Right.
:::
:::::
::::: But exposure to post-meal high blood sugars can destroy more of
::::: those cells without your realizing it. So I hope you do monitor
::::: your after meal numbers when you carb up and don't let them get
::::: high enough to work slow damage. 140 mg/dl at 2 hours is a wake
::::: up call.
:::
::: No, I haven't been doing that. I typically monitor the day after
::: when my levels might be 90- 100 (usually 80), since usually I'm
::: eating all the time. I'm still wondering what 'slow damage' and
::: 'over time' means, though.
:::
::: But you're right, at 45 I don't want to lose any more beta cells
::: and risk having more severe control issues down the road. That
::: definitely would not be worth carbing up for -- and the line must
::: be drawn somewhere! Not only that, but I don't have to do a day
::: carb up either. In fact, I'll do a single meal carb up (just a
::: normal meal with carbs) at the end of March and track at one hour
::: intervals afterwards. i'm going to have a A1c test done next
::: Friday, too. I get two a year. My last one was 4.8, as you know.
:::
:::::
:::::
::::: -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2
::::: diabetes, hba1c 5.2.
::::: Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
:::::
::::: Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
::::: strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
::::: http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
:::::
::::: Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
::::: Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm
:::::
:::::
:::::
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
::::: ...
:::::: Jenny wrote:
:::::::: Roger,
::::::::
:::::::: You mustn't be very diabetic, or are you on meds?
::::::
:::::: With me, it has always been weight related -- the heavier I am,
:::::: the more problems I have with diabetes. When I get the weight
:::::: under a certain amount, my BG is more controllable. I've been
:::::: off meds for
:::::: a good while now.
::::::
:::::: I was under the impression that this was true for a lot of really
:::::: heavy people....
::::::
::::::
:::::: My body doesn't
:::::::: distinguish between sugar and starch when it comes to boosting
:::::::: blood sugars. If I eat 60 grams of bagel, I'm going to see a
:::::::: blood sugar in the 200s, which is something I avoid at all
:::::::: costs because it feels like death warmed over now that I'm
:::::::: usually
:::::::: under 120.
::::::
:::::: Yeah, I could eat a bunch of bagels without problems.
::::::
::::::
::::::::
:::::::: I wonder if it is possible to do a refeed in smaller bits--15
:::::::: gram doses every hour and a half rather than all at once?
::::::
:::::: Sure. I'm not sure if it would be "optimal" or not...but not
:::::: everything has to be optimal.
::::::
:::::: I like the
:::::::: idea of boosting the leptin if possible. Though perhaps I am
:::::::: getting some of this when I cycle back and forth between my 80
:::::::: gram weeks and 40 gram weeks.
::::::::
:::::::: -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2
:::::::: diabetes, hba1c 5.2.
:::::::: Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
::::::::
:::::::: Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips,
:::::::: recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
:::::::: http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
::::::::
:::::::: Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
:::::::: Visit
:::::::: http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm
::::::::
::::::::
::::::::
:::::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
:::::::: ...
::::::::: Jenny wrote:
::::::::::: Roger,
:::::::::::
::::::::::: If you are doing huge carb ups, how do you control your
::::::::::: diabetic blood sugars or don't you?
:::::::::
::::::::: Well, I don't eat a pile of sugar and I workout hard. Also,
::::::::: I'm not really doing that many carbup these days. I did two
::::::::: in January (one lasted 1.5 days and the other only 1 day) and
::::::::: had that binge last Sunday night. The two in January
::::::::: consisted of
::::::::: low fat eating -- stuff like rice and bread, potatos, veggies,
::::::::: protein foods, etc. No sugar junk, either. I was a good
::::::::: low-fat poster body.
:::::::::
::::::::: At my current weight and exercise level, I maintain good
::::::::: control. Now, if I were to spin out of control and stay that
::::::::: way for
::::::::: longer than a day or two, with no cardio and lifting, I expect
::::::::: I'd be in trouble. I simply have no plans to do that.

emkay writes:
Whoa! It told me that my ideal body weight is 30837 pounds!

That's the fun part of this job ;-)

I'm 5'1.5'' tall, and I didn't want to lose "credit" for that extra half
inch, so I put my height in in centimeters (156). It gave me some bizarre
results. I tried 5'1 and 5'2 in feet/inches, and they looked much more
reasonable. Then I realized that it was using the 156 as _meters_, not
centimeters. (I tried 1.56 "centimeters" and it worked.)

Both fixed. You can type in 5'1.5 for height if you want (without
losing the half inch), and centimeters is now really centimeters.

It was odd being told that my lean body mass was higher than my total
weight -- but it was fun having a negative body fat percentage :-)

The math is naive.

On 12 Mar 2004 19:11:17 -0500, DJ Delorie wrote:


Both fixed. You can type in 5'1.5 for height if you want (without
losing the half inch), and centimeters is now really centimeters.


Thanks. That half inch is important to us shorties. :-)

Em

Roger,

C-Peptide is not unusual, but it isn't often done by family doctors. It is
usually used to determine whether a diabetic patient is producing insulin
and hence is truly type 2 or is instead an adult-onset type 1.

I have been wanting to get one done since the more research I do, the more
I'm starting to think I have one of the genetic variant types of type 2
diabetes that result in beta cell death rather than the more common kind
where people develop insulin resistance from being overweight. Nothing else
explains how I could have developed the first signs (gestational diabetes)
long before I had a significant weight problem. Or why weight loss seems to
have no effect on it.

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.2.
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm



"Roger Zoul" wrote in message
...
Jenny wrote:
:: Roger,
::
:: There are bits and pieces scattered around medical journals
:: describing how blood sugar control deteriorates. Nothing ties it all
:: together yet.
::
:: A couple important things: some people lose fasting blood sugar
:: control but maintain their 2-hr glucose tolerance. I.e. they don't
:: spike to 200 mg/dl after a lot of carbs but wake up over 126 mg/dl.
:: . These tend to be heavy people with intense insulin resistance.The
:: way diabetes is diagnosed in the US--using the fasting test--these
:: are the main group of folks getting diagnosed.
::
:: There is another group, more common in some European populations and
:: among older women, who are not necessarily fat and may not be
:: terribly insulin resistant, but who see deteriorated 2-hr glucose
:: response but maintain normal or near normal fasting blood sugar.
:: That's the group I fall into. We seem to be the folks who have a
:: problem with our beta cells dying off for some reason. Eventually
:: when enough beta cells go, our fasting control goes too.
::
:: Finally, there are folks who fit both categories--lousy fasting
:: blood sugar and lousy post-meal values. This happens to obese
:: insulin resistant people after a long time of elevated fasting blood
:: sugars. Whatever your path, when you have lost both 2-hr response
:: and fasting response, you probably have said good bye to 85% of your
:: beta cells and blood sugar control can deteriorate from mildly
:: diabetic to utterly screwed (300 mg/dl and over) in a matter of just
:: a few years.
::
:: There is still a huge debate in the research world about what
:: exactly it is that kills off the beta cells in type 2s.
:: High blood sugar levels, high levels of circulating FFA, some defect
:: in the cells that causes them to self-destruct when they reproduce,
:: Amyloid deposits in the pancreas catalyzed by apolipoprotein-e, etc
:: etc. But there is some very good evidence that high circulating
:: blood sugar levels will kill healthy beta cells implanted into
:: otherwise completely normal mice. Which is why you want to avoid
:: high post meal blood sugar levels at all times.
::
:: The only way to estimate how many beta cells you have is to have a
:: C-Peptide test done which shows how much circulating insulin you
:: have. If there's a huge amount, then you still have cells. As the
:: cells die off, the C-peptide levels come down, until when you are
:: completely insulin dependent, you have none left.

Is this a common test? I'm going to the doctor next friday so maybe I
ought
to see about getting this one done. I also need to check my records as it
may have been part of the tests they do.

::
:: I've got a bunch of stuff to read on this subject and not a lot of
:: time to read it right now, but I will report back when I get to it.
::

Thanks for the info, Jenny!

::
:: --Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2
:: diabetes, hba1c 5.2.
:: Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
::
:: Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
:: strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
:: http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
::
:: Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
:: Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm
::
::
::
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
:: ...
::: Jenny wrote:
::::: Roger,
:::::
::::: If you were able to reverse your diabetes with weight loss (which
::::: a very small number of people can do) you are fortunate. However,
::::: the fact that you could become diabetic when your body is
::::: stressed (in your case by weight) means that you need to keep
::::: monitoring and restricting carbs because the underlying defect
::::: still exists and
::::: over time it will whittle away more of your beta cells.
:::
::: I agree. In fact, I don't consider my diabetes reversed...I
::: consider it to be "under control".
:::
::: And I do monitor, though not during carbups since typically I'm
::: eating all the time.
:::
:::::
::::: I was only diabetic while pregnant and 50 pounds heavier than
::::: usual
::::: in my 30s. I'm diabetic now no matter what I weigh. In fact, one
::::: of the most depressing things about this last stint of weight
::::: loss was that I was so sure that if I could get back to my old
::::: non-diabetic weight, I wouldn't be diabetic. But at 137 lbs I
::::: still had rotten blood sugar response. That's because I no
::::: longer have anywhere near as many living beta cells as I had when
::::: I was younger, because high blood sugars in the intervening 18
::::: years gradually killed them off, though I was not running
::::: diabetic level blood sugars, just
::::: moderately elevated ones.
:::::
::::: So if you eat a ton of carbs you should monitor. If you are going
::::: over 140 mg/dl at 2 hours after intake,
:::
::: Yeah, that would be hard....since on a carb up I'd probably eat
::: something within two hours...
:::
::: you are still lowly
::::: destroying your beta cells. There's been some discussion about
::::: this
::::: on alt.support.diabetes, and I've been doing some research lately
::::: reading old studies to see what truly normal blood sugars looks
::::: like, and what I'm coming up with suggests that 2-h post meal
::::: numbers over 140 mg/dl spell big trouble over time. In fact, even
::::: numbers over 120 mg/dl might be.
:::
::: What does 'over time' mean? Other than January this year, when I
::: did UD2, it has been rare that I'd carb up more than once in a
::: month. I don't need to. And prior to that I'd be watching carbs
::: strictly and working out hard. Does any of your data track people
::: who really *try* to burn calories hard with cardio and weight
::: training?
:::
:::::
::::: The way that it works, which most people don't realize, is that
::::: in
::::: an insulin resistant person blood sugar response stays fairly
::::: level for many, many years, until 85% of beta cells die. At that
::::: point there's a "whoosh" upwards and within 3 years you can go
::::: from almost normal blood sugar to diabetic as the next 5 and 10%
::::: of the cells
::::: die off.
:::::
:::
::: Is there a test for remaining beta cells?
:::
::::: Since you've already been diabetic, you know that your beta cells
::::: aren't normal. A normal obese person simply makes more beta cells.
::::: An obese person with early diabetes starts losing cells when they
::::: try to divide. This seems to be one of the early defects of
::::: diabetes. So it is likely that you've already lost some of your
::::: beta cells already. However, with less weight you need less beta
::::: cells to keep your blood sugar under control.
:::
::: Right.
:::
:::::
::::: But exposure to post-meal high blood sugars can destroy more of
::::: those cells without your realizing it. So I hope you do monitor
::::: your after meal numbers when you carb up and don't let them get
::::: high enough to work slow damage. 140 mg/dl at 2 hours is a wake
::::: up call.
:::
::: No, I haven't been doing that. I typically monitor the day after
::: when my levels might be 90- 100 (usually 80), since usually I'm
::: eating all the time. I'm still wondering what 'slow damage' and
::: 'over time' means, though.
:::
::: But you're right, at 45 I don't want to lose any more beta cells
::: and risk having more severe control issues down the road. That
::: definitely would not be worth carbing up for -- and the line must
::: be drawn somewhere! Not only that, but I don't have to do a day
::: carb up either. In fact, I'll do a single meal carb up (just a
::: normal meal with carbs) at the end of March and track at one hour
::: intervals afterwards. i'm going to have a A1c test done next
::: Friday, too. I get two a year. My last one was 4.8, as you know.
:::
:::::
:::::
::::: -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2
::::: diabetes, hba1c 5.2.
::::: Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
:::::
::::: Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
::::: strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
::::: http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
:::::
::::: Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
::::: Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm
:::::
:::::
:::::
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
::::: ...
:::::: Jenny wrote:
:::::::: Roger,
::::::::
:::::::: You mustn't be very diabetic, or are you on meds?
::::::
:::::: With me, it has always been weight related -- the heavier I am,
:::::: the more problems I have with diabetes. When I get the weight
:::::: under a certain amount, my BG is more controllable. I've been
:::::: off meds for
:::::: a good while now.
::::::
:::::: I was under the impression that this was true for a lot of really
:::::: heavy people....
::::::
::::::
:::::: My body doesn't
:::::::: distinguish between sugar and starch when it comes to boosting
:::::::: blood sugars. If I eat 60 grams of bagel, I'm going to see a
:::::::: blood sugar in the 200s, which is something I avoid at all
:::::::: costs because it feels like death warmed over now that I'm
:::::::: usually
:::::::: under 120.
::::::
:::::: Yeah, I could eat a bunch of bagels without problems.
::::::
::::::
::::::::
:::::::: I wonder if it is possible to do a refeed in smaller bits--15
:::::::: gram doses every hour and a half rather than all at once?
::::::
:::::: Sure. I'm not sure if it would be "optimal" or not...but not
:::::: everything has to be optimal.
::::::
:::::: I like the
:::::::: idea of boosting the leptin if possible. Though perhaps I am
:::::::: getting some of this when I cycle back and forth between my 80
:::::::: gram weeks and 40 gram weeks.
::::::::
:::::::: -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2
:::::::: diabetes, hba1c 5.2.
:::::::: Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
::::::::
:::::::: Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips,
:::::::: recipes, strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
:::::::: http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
::::::::
:::::::: Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
:::::::: Visit
:::::::: http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm
::::::::
::::::::
::::::::
:::::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
:::::::: ...
::::::::: Jenny wrote:
::::::::::: Roger,
:::::::::::
::::::::::: If you are doing huge carb ups, how do you control your
::::::::::: diabetic blood sugars or don't you?
:::::::::
::::::::: Well, I don't eat a pile of sugar and I workout hard. Also,
::::::::: I'm not really doing that many carbup these days. I did two
::::::::: in January (one lasted 1.5 days and the other only 1 day) and
::::::::: had that binge last Sunday night. The two in January
::::::::: consisted of
::::::::: low fat eating -- stuff like rice and bread, potatos, veggies,
::::::::: protein foods, etc. No sugar junk, either. I was a good
::::::::: low-fat poster body.
:::::::::
::::::::: At my current weight and exercise level, I maintain good
::::::::: control. Now, if I were to spin out of control and stay that
::::::::: way for
::::::::: longer than a day or two, with no cardio and lifting, I expect
::::::::: I'd be in trouble. I simply have no plans to do that.