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Question about ketones
I'm not doing the Atkins diet but I have a question that people here
might know the answer to. A couple of days ago I did a lot of endurance exercise that probably burned 4,000 kcal. Even though I had a meal high in carbs before I surely must have burned some fat. The next day when I urinated I could smell something I can'ŧ really describe, perhaps a chemical smell. I also smelled this when doing the Atkins diet. Subsequent trips to the bathroom didn't produce this smell. I did some Googling and one suggestion was that this could indicate ketoacidosis because of the presence of ketones. My thought is, surely endurance exercise which depletes all glucose(?) would require the production of ketones to burn fat in order to continue providing energy. So as well as during low carb dieting and diabetic problems, ketosis should also happen during endurance exercise? In which case, should I -expect- to smell something weird when I urinate or should I see the Dr. about this? |
#2
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Question about ketones
Deux wrote:
I'm not doing the Atkins diet but I have a question that people here might know the answer to. A couple of days ago I did a lot of endurance exercise that probably burned 4,000 kcal. Even though I had a meal high in carbs before I surely must have burned some fat. That's a *VAST* amount of endurance exercise. Running a marathon can easily take around 3500 calories so less than what you burned. The fact that you did an amount of endurance exercise at least as much as a marathon is key here. I'll call it a marathon for most of the rest of my response. The next day when I urinated I could smell something I can'¼ really describe, perhaps a chemical smell. I also smelled this when doing the Atkins diet. Subsequent trips to the bathroom didn't produce this smell. After doing a marathon one possibility is you smelled ammonia. Ammonia is a toxic product of very fast protein metabolism. It's very bad to smell ammonia in your **** because it's a sign that your blood is toxic and this particular type of toxicity has no natural limitations. It's probably why the famous messenger from the original battle of Marathon died and it's why training for marathons is different in type from training for shorter runs - Running marathons is potentially fatal for the ill prepared. Since ammonia is not produced while low carbing and eating a successful predator's diet that's not the result you smelled. After running out of glycogen a well trained body will switch to burning fat by both of the metabolic pathways. The faster of the two pathways uses ketones. The liver cuts fatty acids into short carbon chain ketones. Those ketones flow through the blood but also escape through the skin and in the urine. The cells pull the ketones from the blood and modify them to put into the Krebs cycle of energy. Conclusion - You did so much endurance exercise you drained your body of its entire store of glycogen or nearly so. So your body switched to a successful predator metabolism in other words ketosis. And you continued the exercise without pause. I did some Googling and one suggestion was that this could indicate ketoacidosis because of the presence of ketones. Definitely not ketoacidosis. Ketoacidosis is an unlimited run up of ketones from burning fat because the metabolism is broken. Ketosis from a successful predator diet and/or from vast amounts of endurance exercise (includes running down a deer by the exhaustion method) and/or from starvation is a well limited run level of ketones from burning fat at a level tuned to handle the body's elevated metabolic needs. When not doing vast amounts of endurance exercise this is the source of the "metabolic edge" that Dr Atkins claimed. It works but only for a limited length of time. My thought is, surely endurance exercise which depletes all glucose(?) would require the production of ketones to burn fat in order to continue providing energy. So as well as during low carb dieting and diabetic problems, ketosis should also happen during endurance exercise? Exactly. The length of the marathon run is chosen to guarantee that no human can finish it on our initial glycogen reserves no matter how much carb loading we do in advance. It's why it's potentially fatal to the ill prepared - Because an ill prepared body can end up burning lean and it's possible to push such a run to death. In which case, should I -expect- to smell something weird when I urinate or should I see the Dr. about this? It should be expected. Some describe it as acidic, some as garlicy, some as chemical, some as acetone which is the most obvious of its components. So what did you do if you didn't run a marathon? A two hundred mile bike ride or more in under 12 hours? Spend the entire day tracking a deer in an attempt to kill it by the exhaustion method (possible because deer sprint away from predators but a tracking human can non-sprint run to chase the deer thus the deer dies by the ammonia method while the human goes into ketosis)? Spend the entire day digging an irrigation ditch? |
#3
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Question about ketones
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 16:35:25 +0000, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Deux wrote: I'm not doing the Atkins diet but I have a question that people here might know the answer to. A couple of days ago I did a lot of endurance exercise that probably burned 4,000 kcal. Even though I had a meal high in carbs before I surely must have burned some fat. That's a *VAST* amount of endurance exercise. Running a marathon can easily take around 3500 calories so less than what you burned. The fact that you did an amount of endurance exercise at least as much as a marathon is key here. I'll call it a marathon for most of the rest of my response. Thanks for the response. I see now that my guess of 4,000 was rather optimistic. It was probably something around 2,100 and it was from 33 miles of cycling (230 lbs @ 15mph = 966kcal/hour x 2.2hrs = 2125) |
#4
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Question about ketones
On 11/29/2011 3:14 PM, Deux wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 16:35:25 +0000, Doug Freyburger wrote: Deux wrote: I'm not doing the Atkins diet but I have a question that people here might know the answer to. A couple of days ago I did a lot of endurance exercise that probably burned 4,000 kcal. Even though I had a meal high in carbs before I surely must have burned some fat. That's a *VAST* amount of endurance exercise. Running a marathon can easily take around 3500 calories so less than what you burned. The fact that you did an amount of endurance exercise at least as much as a marathon is key here. I'll call it a marathon for most of the rest of my response. Thanks for the response. I see now that my guess of 4,000 was rather optimistic. It was probably something around 2,100 and it was from 33 miles of cycling (230 lbs @ 15mph = 966kcal/hour x 2.2hrs = 2125) At 230 lbs running costs abou 165 kcal/mile. Cycling uses about 1/5 of that. So my guess is more like 1100 kcal to cycle 33 miles. |
#5
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Question about ketones
Deux wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote: That's a *VAST* amount of endurance exercise. Running a marathon can easily take around 3500 calories so less than what you burned. I see now that my guess of 4,000 was rather optimistic. It was probably something around 2,100 and it was from 33 miles of cycling (230 lbs @ 15mph = 966kcal/hour x 2.2hrs = 2125) You started out low carbing but not ketogenic low carbing, right? That means you started out with a smaller glycogen store than low fatters or carb loaders. The rest still adds up to you running through your glycogen stores and going into ketosis. Beneficial. |
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Question about ketones
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 16:24:30 -0400, James Warren wrote:
On 11/29/2011 3:14 PM, Deux wrote: On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 16:35:25 +0000, Doug Freyburger wrote: Deux wrote: I'm not doing the Atkins diet but I have a question that people here might know the answer to. A couple of days ago I did a lot of endurance exercise that probably burned 4,000 kcal. Even though I had a meal high in carbs before I surely must have burned some fat. That's a *VAST* amount of endurance exercise. Running a marathon can easily take around 3500 calories so less than what you burned. The fact that you did an amount of endurance exercise at least as much as a marathon is key here. I'll call it a marathon for most of the rest of my response. Thanks for the response. I see now that my guess of 4,000 was rather optimistic. It was probably something around 2,100 and it was from 33 miles of cycling (230 lbs @ 15mph = 966kcal/hour x 2.2hrs = 2125) At 230 lbs running costs abou 165 kcal/mile. Cycling uses about 1/5 of that. So my guess is more like 1100 kcal to cycle 33 miles. Last edited by kevin : April 9th, 2013 at 06:10 AM. |
#7
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Question about ketones
Deux wrote:[color=blue][i]
James Warren wrote: Deux wrote: I see now that my guess of 4,000 was rather optimistic. It was probably something around 2,100 and it was from 33 miles of cycling (230 lbs @ 15mph = 966kcal/hour x 2.2hrs = 2125) At 230 lbs running costs abou 165 kcal/mile. Cycling uses about 1/5 of that. So my guess is more like 1100 kcal to cycle 33 miles. I entered 140 minutes at 230 pounds and it suggested 1800 for moderate stationary bike and 2700 for vigorous stationary bike. Real cycling usually ends up a bit less strenous that on the stationary for me because on the stationary I make sure to maintain a minimum heart rate. The 2100 number might be an okay estimate. Last edited by kevin : April 9th, 2013 at 06:10 AM. |
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