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#51
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
In article ,
Doug Freyburger wrote: Dogman wrote: " wrote: Until you can explain to me what these "mysterious" effects are, and how they work, etc., I'm going with Ockham's Razor. It's possible that the surgery causes effects not seen in folks put on the same diet without the surgery. *I would like to see studies that do that. *If there's a difference other than adherence it would probably be a change in gherlin levels driven by idling much of the stomach. Thank you. That is exactly what researchers are working on. Hey, when they get done "working on it," be sure to let us know how it turns out, 'kay? Exactly. I look forward to reading the results of such studies. To what extent is the hormonal damage of being morbidly obese in the first place is reversed rather than just the weight lost as long as the punishment of vomitting lasts. It's not just a better success rate. It's a vastly better success rate. Maybe you should tell all these folks. They apparently didn't get the memo! Given that even the best diet plans have an 85% drop out rate, surgery can fail more than half the time and still be vastly better than any of the diet options. Sounds like the same old problems to me, they still don't know how to eat, they fall off the wagon, etc. Nope, nothing "mysterious" there. No change from any diet. Humans instinctively crave sweet and/or greasy and/or salty foods. Companies market products that trigger those cravings. it is never going to be easy to resist that. Figure out how to make it easy to resist that and you'll be a trillionaire. But greasy foods are satiating if not eaten with carbs or too much protein. You do need to keep a lid on protein, because an excess will be transformed to glucose. -- This space unintentionally left blank. |
#52
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
In article ,
Dogman wrote: Well, first thing, I don't think drop-out rate necessarily equates to long-term failure. People drop out, sure, but most people drop back in eventually. They get back on the wagon. At least that's been what I've observed. Plus, for the vast majority of people (those who aren't already morbidly obese), I don't think surgery is any more successful long-term than from diet, and comes with serious dangers and side-effects. Yes, the risk goes up for the very obese and morbidly obese. -- This space unintentionally left blank. |
#53
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
In article
, " wrote: Sure, like all someone has to do is tell them about LC. Perhaps you've missed it. There was a huge interest in LC around 2000. It was widely covered in the media. It was the time articles by Taubes were coming out and Atkins was all over the news. Lots of people heard the message about LC. This newsgroup was full of them. They were exchanging recipes, asking questions, telling of their stories. A lot of people started doing LC for the first time. Well, what happened? Interest in LC fell just as quickly as it grew. See many folks in the newgroup here these days? The people who tried it just as quickly gave it up. That doesn't make LC bad. It's just that most people have shown that they won't stay on any diet long term. In case you didn't notice USENET is dying. Everyone went to blogs, mail lists etcetera. -- This space unintentionally left blank. |
#54
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On Thu, 31 May 2012 14:13:07 -0400, Dogman wrote:
[...] Maybe you should tell all these folks. *They apparently didn't get the memo! When you have an actual study that says bariatric surgery doesn't have a vastly higher success rate in the patients that undergo it compared to dieting, let us know. And when you have one that says it does, let us know. Given that even the best diet plans have an 85% drop out rate, surgery can fail more than half the time and still be vastly better than any of the diet options. Well, first thing, I don't think drop-out rate necessarily equates to long-term failure. People drop out, sure, but most people drop back in eventually. They get back on the wagon. At least that's been what I've observed. Sure, we should trust your personal observations rather than all the other data that says diets of any type don't have a high long term success rate. You don't have to trust mine, just Plus, for the vast majority of people (those who aren't already morbidly obese), I don't think surgery is any more successful long-term than from diet, and comes with serious dangers and side-effects. What you think does not count. What you have proof for does. The same thing goes for you, asshole. Put up or shut up! [...] That's why people have to be taught ways to "have their cake and eat it, too," by using natural sweeteners (more or less), like stevia, erythritol, xylitol (my personal favorite, when I just have to absolutely have something sweetened), etc., instead of sugar, HFCS, etc. And how to cook with non-grain flours, like almond, coconut, etc. And only a small percentage of the population needs to be concerned about their salt intake. Weren't you the guy who claimed a few posts ago that LC was easy? I said pretty easy, and along with paleo, it is. And since I know you're all about accuracy, and everything pro and con has to be discussed once anyone brings up anything, let me point this out: xylitol is not what I would call a natural product: You wouldn't, of course, because you're stupid. But most everyone else does, and I know how you love consensus. And I said it was a natural sweetener (more or less), which it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylitol Today, using hardwood or maize sources, the largest manufacturer globally is the Danish company Danisco, with several other suppliers from China.[8] Xylitol is produced by hydrogenation of xylose, which converts the sugar (an aldehyde) into a primary alcohol. Not exactly like a hippie picking it from a tree. What do you have against birch trees? And since the xylitol I use is extracted from non-GMO corn, and others are made from "the fibers of many fruits and vegetables, and can be extracted from various berries, oats, and mushrooms," it sounds pretty damn natural to me. Yep, I can almost see the hippies! Not to mention how it is good for people with metabolic syndrome and diabetes, helps prevent cavities, has virtually no effect on blood sugar, is low in calories, and tastes great. "Where Xylitol Comes From Xylitol is found widely in nature. In addition to a variety of fruits and vegetables, Xylitol is also commonly extracted from birch bark. It is important to remember, however, that Xylitol is a specific molecule. The Xylitol extracted from one source is exactly the same as Xylitol from any other source – just as the sugar (sucrose) extracted from beets is exactly the same as the sugar we get from sugar cane." http://www.xylitol.org/about-xylitol And like I mentioned, I don't generally use sweeteners (I'm pretty much weaned off of needing any), I like xylitol because it is natural (more or less), is about 1/3 less sweet than sugar, and has additional benefits, like prevention of tooth decay (which is why it's found in some gums), and beneficial for fungal or bacterial dysbiosis. But feel free to cram your face with sugar and HFCS, though! Anything else I can help you out with, just let me know. Okay, how 'bout taking your right foot and shoving it up your ass? How 'bout that? -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
#55
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On Thu, 31 May 2012 09:25:33 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On May 31, 11:01*am, Dogman wrote: On Thu, 31 May 2012 07:06:48 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: [...] Going on diets and learning how to eat properly are two different things. People who learn how to eat properly are usually able to maintain a healthy weight. That's like saying people who aren't fat aren't fat. It's nothing like that, of course. A diet is what we eat. * And again I'd like to see a reference that says most people who are given instruction in what to eat whether in the form of a book, lecture, class, doctor, etc are successful in the long term. *Everything I've seen says they are not. * And it doesn't matter if it's low fat, low calorie, LC, etc. *The long term success rate isn't good. Of course, it matters. Some diets are extremely hard to maintain, like low-calorie diets, vegan diets, just to name two. Then per my previous request show us studies that show diets that have a long term success record for most people. The failure rate for all diets, is very high. I'm not going to repeat myself. Low-carb and paleo diets are pretty easy. Humans existed on paleo diets for most of our existence, and they didn't get fat. They didn't have trouble doing it because they were eating REAL food, not refined, processed food, sugar, grains, etc. A lot of people would disagree that LC is easy. If you don't cook for example, Anyone can learn to cook, even you. Or marry some one who can. But eating out in restaurants all the time will only make the job tougher (and unhealthier) than it need be. And while everyone is different, most of us who are taught how to eat properly can maintain a healthy weight without much effort, and still get to eat delicious meats, fish, veggies and fruits. And even enjoy certain "desserts," provided they're the right kind. There are entire cookbooks devoted to showing people how to prepare delicious low-carb and paleo meals. But very few people are aimed in that direction by doctors, preferring instead to recommend low-fat, high-carb meals, essentially making them part of the problem, not the solution. Sure, like all someone has to do is tell them about LC. Perhaps you've missed it. There was a huge interest in LC around 2000. It was widely covered in the media. It's still very popular, along with paleo. And getting more popular, especially in Scandinavian countries, where they continually have shortages of butter. http://www.dietdoctor.com/heres-swed...ne-number-four It was the time articles by Taubes were coming out and Atkins was all over the news. Lots of people heard the message about LC. This newsgroup was full of them. Only a fool would go by this newsgroup, because newsgroup usage in general is at an all-time low. On web sites, Facebook, Twitter, podcasts, etc., the message is probably more popular than ever. But you're too stupid to realize it. {more of the same ol' same ol' snipped, because the repitition is getting...boring] -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
#56
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On Thu, 31 May 2012 09:37:02 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: Exactly. *I look forward to reading the results of such studies. *To what extent is the hormonal damage of being morbidly obese in the first place is reversed rather than just the weight lost as long as the punishment of vomitting lasts. Again, the specific studies being done are regarding the reversal of diabetes, and so far the results indicate that it is NOT connected to the weight loss. No, it's due to the DIET. And you can see the same effects and get to keep your stomach intact, if you eat properly. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
#57
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On Thu, 31 May 2012 13:35:58 -0400, Walter Bushell
wrote: In article , " wrote: Sure, like all someone has to do is tell them about LC. Perhaps you've missed it. There was a huge interest in LC around 2000. It was widely covered in the media. It was the time articles by Taubes were coming out and Atkins was all over the news. Lots of people heard the message about LC. This newsgroup was full of them. They were exchanging recipes, asking questions, telling of their stories. A lot of people started doing LC for the first time. Well, what happened? Interest in LC fell just as quickly as it grew. See many folks in the newgroup here these days? The people who tried it just as quickly gave it up. That doesn't make LC bad. It's just that most people have shown that they won't stay on any diet long term. In case you didn't notice USENET is dying. Everyone went to blogs, mail lists etcetera. Exactly. Visit Jimmy Moore's blog and web site: http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/ ....to get just a flavor for just how many LC and/or Paleo web sites are out there. Here are 47 new Paleo, low-carb and health blogs for just May 2012: 1. LOW CARBOHYDRATE REVIEW 2. N=1: A JOURNEY TO HEALTH 3. CHUNKY TO CHA-CHA 4. IT’S THE SATIETY 5. AGAINST THE GRAIN 6. BACON & SKINNY JEANS 7. 30 BANANAS A DAY…SUCKS! 8. A CHANGE OF LIFE 9. KOKOPALEO 10. GOOD FOR YOU GOODIES 11. PEACE, LOVE, AND LOW CARB 12. PALEO FOR WOMEN 13. TRAIN TO WIN, EAT TO LOSE 14. KARA NANCE MD 15. SWEDISH DIET 16. BOOKBODY 17. THE FOODIE AND THE FAMILY 18. YOUR HEALTH IS ON YOUR PLATE 19. SARA GOTTFRIED MD 20. MRS. PALEO 21. A WEIGHT WATCHING ANGEL 22. MY LIFE IN A PYRAMID 23. CONFESSIONS OF A CROSSFIT COACH 24. LOW-CARB LIFESTYLE: THE THEORY & PRACTICE 25. SARAH GETS STRONG: A CROSSFIT/PALEO LOVE AFFAIR 26. MAKE IT FUN & IT WILL GET DONE 27. EATHROPOLOGY 28. THE THINKER 29. THE UNREFINED KITCHEN 30. THE CAFE WELLNESS 31. AUTISM BUSTER 32. PALEO STYLE 33. PRINCIPLE INTO PRACTICE 34. PRIMAL PASTURES 35. CLAUDIO RIVERA 36. THE DAWN OF PALEO 37. YOGI WELLNESS JOURNEY 38. DR. DEBORAH’S BLOG 39. FIT TWIN CITIES 40. THE WILDERNESS CHILDE 41. HOME WITH PURPOSE 42. LITTLE DOG LOST 43. THE REAL NUTRITIONIST 44. TOM’S UNDERGROUND FITNESS 45. DIETINGLADY 46. DIETA LOW-CARB E PALEOLITICA (Portuguese) 47. SYLPH GOURMAND (Serbian) They're popping up like dandelions (which make a great tasting and very healthy salad!), in fact. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
#58
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On Thu, 31 May 2012 17:01:20 -0300, James Warren
wrote: [...] "KFC ® Grilled Chicken "Fresh Chicken Marinated with: Salt, Sodium Phosphate, and Monosodium Glutamate Seasoned with: Maltodextrin, Salt, Bleached Wheat lour, Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and Cottonseed Oil, Monosodium Glutamate, Spices, Palm Oil, Natural Flavor, Garlic Powder, Soy Sauce (Soybean, Wheat, Salt), Chicken Fat, Chicken Broth, Autolyzed Yeast, Beef Powder, Rendered Beef Fat, Extractives of Turmeric, Dehydrated Carrot, Onion Powder, and mot more than 2% Each of Calcium Silicate and Silicon Dioxide Added as Anticaking Agents. "Contains Wheat and Soy" Does anyone make grilled chicken at home using any of those ingredients? It still looks like low carb to me, but not zero carb. It's not the carbs that should concern you, James, but the list of ingredients. Why so concerned with the additives and flavor enhancers? The question should be, why aren't you concerned? Why should REAL food need so many additives and flavor enhancers? And what exactly is "natural flavor"? I think it's probably HFCS. Why would you want "bleached wheat flour" in your chicken? Or partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oils"? Why should you need "beef powder" or "rendered beef fat" on your CHICKEN? Etc. I think it is reasonable to be concerned with things that are actually harmful. What things on your list are actually harmful? I agree they are not necessary but are they harmful? That's why it's called Frankenchicken in some circles. Some people overreact. And some people never learn. Many books have been written describing the extremely UNHEALTHY aspects of many of those items on that list of ingredients, so if you want to keep eating them and think you're not eventually going to pay a price for it, keep on keeping on. Are those books credible? James, you've proven by now that no book, no study, etc., is credible enough for you, so why should I waste me time trying to convince you otherwise? So I'm only going to tell you about soy, and why you shouldn't eat it, unless it's fermented. http://www.foodrenegade.com/dangers-of-soy/ And if you don't believe that, I really couldn't care less at this point. Frankly, I don't even know why you're here. Most such books are just conspiracy theory and junk science. And that's precisely why I don't bother anymore. I doubt it. Hey, it's your life. Here's my list of ingredients for the grilled chicken I make at home. Chicken Salt Pepper Sounds yummy. It is. Because good chicken doesn't need more than that to taste yummy. I agree. I prefer it plain, grilled or fried. If you fry it, I hope you don't fry it in vegetable oils? Of course you do! You're James Warren! PS: I take it a couple of steps further, and only eat USDA certified organic chicken, and only Celtic Sea Salt (the best salt you've probably never tasted). If you eat REAL food, GOOD food, you don't need all that unhealthy crap that KFC has to drench its chicken in to get you to eat it. Yep, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
#59
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On 5/31/2012 5:34 PM, Dogman wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2012 17:01:20 -0300, James Warren wrote: [...] "KFC ® Grilled Chicken "Fresh Chicken Marinated with: Salt, Sodium Phosphate, and Monosodium Glutamate Seasoned with: Maltodextrin, Salt, Bleached Wheat lour, Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and Cottonseed Oil, Monosodium Glutamate, Spices, Palm Oil, Natural Flavor, Garlic Powder, Soy Sauce (Soybean, Wheat, Salt), Chicken Fat, Chicken Broth, Autolyzed Yeast, Beef Powder, Rendered Beef Fat, Extractives of Turmeric, Dehydrated Carrot, Onion Powder, and mot more than 2% Each of Calcium Silicate and Silicon Dioxide Added as Anticaking Agents. "Contains Wheat and Soy" Does anyone make grilled chicken at home using any of those ingredients? It still looks like low carb to me, but not zero carb. It's not the carbs that should concern you, James, but the list of ingredients. Why so concerned with the additives and flavor enhancers? The question should be, why aren't you concerned? Why should REAL food need so many additives and flavor enhancers? And what exactly is "natural flavor"? I think it's probably HFCS. Why would you want "bleached wheat flour" in your chicken? Or partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oils"? Why should you need "beef powder" or "rendered beef fat" on your CHICKEN? Etc. I think it is reasonable to be concerned with things that are actually harmful. What things on your list are actually harmful? I agree they are not necessary but are they harmful? That's why it's called Frankenchicken in some circles. Some people overreact. And some people never learn. Many books have been written describing the extremely UNHEALTHY aspects of many of those items on that list of ingredients, so if you want to keep eating them and think you're not eventually going to pay a price for it, keep on keeping on. Are those books credible? James, you've proven by now that no book, no study, etc., is credible enough for you, so why should I waste me time trying to convince you otherwise? So I'm only going to tell you about soy, and why you shouldn't eat it, unless it's fermented. http://www.foodrenegade.com/dangers-of-soy/ And if you don't believe that, I really couldn't care less at this point. Frankly, I don't even know why you're here. I don't either, so we agree. Most such books are just conspiracy theory and junk science. And that's precisely why I don't bother anymore. I doubt it. Hey, it's your life. Here's my list of ingredients for the grilled chicken I make at home. Chicken Salt Pepper Sounds yummy. It is. Because good chicken doesn't need more than that to taste yummy. I agree. I prefer it plain, grilled or fried. If you fry it, I hope you don't fry it in vegetable oils? Of course you do! You're James Warren! I use olive oil. Is that OK with you? PS: I take it a couple of steps further, and only eat USDA certified organic chicken, and only Celtic Sea Salt (the best salt you've probably never tasted). If you eat REAL food, GOOD food, you don't need all that unhealthy crap that KFC has to drench its chicken in to get you to eat it. Oh I agree we don't need all that crap, but is it harmful? Yep, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. Of that there is no doubt. |
#60
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On May 31, 3:22*pm, Dogman wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2012 09:25:33 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On May 31, 11:01*am, Dogman wrote: On Thu, 31 May 2012 07:06:48 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: [...] Going on diets and learning how to eat properly are two different things. People who learn how to eat properly are usually able to maintain a healthy weight. That's like saying people who aren't fat aren't fat. It's nothing like that, of course. A diet is what we eat. * And again I'd like to see a reference that says most people who are given instruction in what to eat whether in the form of a book, lecture, class, doctor, etc are successful in the long term. *Everything I've seen says they are not. * And it doesn't matter if it's low fat, low calorie, LC, etc. *The long term success rate isn't good. Of course, it matters. Some diets are extremely hard to maintain, like low-calorie diets, vegan diets, just to name two. Then per my previous request show us studies that show diets that have a long term success record for most people. * The failure rate for all diets, is very high. I'm not going to repeat myself. Thank God for that. Low-carb and paleo diets are pretty easy. Humans existed on paleo diets for most of our existence, and they didn't get fat. They didn't have trouble doing it because they were eating REAL food, not refined, processed food, sugar, grains, etc. A lot of people would disagree that LC is easy. *If you don't cook for example, Anyone can learn to cook, even you. Or marry some one who can. But eating out in restaurants all the time will only make the job tougher (and unhealthier) than it need be. Once again, what someone can learn or not has never been the issue. The point is cooking takes effort and it's another hurdle. People in study after study have been shown to be incapable of staying on any diet. But you expect to teach them to cook as part of the process and have them actually do it. Go figure. Why don't you start a diet company on that principle. Tell them "You can lose weight but first we have to teach you how to cook your own food." See how many customers you get. And while everyone is different, most of us who are taught how to eat properly can maintain a healthy weight without much effort, and still get to eat delicious meats, fish, veggies and fruits. And even enjoy certain "desserts," provided they're the right kind. There are entire cookbooks devoted to showing people how to prepare delicious low-carb and paleo meals. But very few people are aimed in that direction by doctors, preferring instead to recommend low-fat, high-carb meals, essentially making them part of the problem, not the solution. Sure, like all someone has to do is tell them about LC. Perhaps you've missed it. There was a huge interest in LC around 2000. *It was widely covered in the media. It's still very popular, along with paleo. And getting more popular, especially in Scandinavian countries, where they continually have shortages of butter. http://www.dietdoctor.com/heres-swed...umber-four?utm... It was the time articles by Taubes were coming out and Atkins was all over the news. Lots of people heard the message about LC. * This newsgroup was full of them. Only a fool would go by this newsgroup, because newsgroup usage in general is at an all-time low. Then you must be a fool too, because you're still here. I particpate in other newsgroups that are as active as they ever were. I suppose all those companies making everything from pickles to salad dressing also stopped making most of it because LC remains really, really popular too. I can't even find Hood LC milk here anymore or LC flax wraps. I'm not the only one that says LC isn't as popular as it was in 2000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet "During the late 1990s and early 2000s low-carbohydrate diets became some of the most popular diets in the U.S. (by some accounts as much as 18% of the population was using a low-carbohydrate diet at its peak[31]) and spread to many countries. These were noted by some food manufacturers and restaurant chains as substantially affecting their businesses (notably Krispy Kreme[32]). The popularity of the low-carb diet trend waned somewhat in the late 2000s.[citation needed] In spite of the decline in popularity this diet trend has continued to quietly garner attention in the medical and nutritional science communities, and also inspired a number of hybrid diets which include traditional calorie-counting and exercise regimens.[6][7][41][42]" That fits with history as I remember it. On web sites, Facebook, Twitter, podcasts, etc., the message is probably more popular than ever. Sure it is. When you actually have some survey data that shows the number of people that are on it, the long term success rate for people who try it, let us know. Until then, I say it's been shown over and over that most people don't keep weight off after a year or two with any diet. |
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