Help! 800cal/day = good diet or ED? "Eat less, do more" not working? VLCD trap?

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:43:22 -0500, Dally wrote:

John HUDSON wrote:

You have shown considerable honesty and courage posting this very
personal account, together with some perhaps not very flattering
photographs.

Butt-ugly, you mean?

No I didn't mean that at all; you were very much overweight and to
your credit, you have done something about it. There is obviously some
way to go to achieve your goal, but you are by no stretch of the
imagination "butt-ugly", you have pleasant regular features and appear
to be quite an attractive woman.

Yes, I was honest. I came from a lousy place,
nearly into a death spiral of too fat to do anything, and I'm getting
into a really healthy place now. I post it to show it can be done.

Good for you and well done - again! ;o)


But I'm dropping MFW and SMN from all follow-ups. This belongs in
alt.support.diet and no place else, in my opinion.

I think that's very wise given that there are some very cynical little
people who get their kicks out of being rude and offensive.

jmk wrote:

I'm not familiar with Zone -- what is the carbohydrate/protein/fat
breakdown? Just curious.

It's 40/30/30 respectively, but I aim for more like 45/30/25 personally.
It took a bit of practice for me to learn to limit carbs so
significantly (I had been doing 75/10/15) and to learn to fit protein
into every meal.

When people talk about the Zone they tend to refer to it as "high
protein" but I think of it as, "eating a balanced diet the way my
Grandma always told me."

It's effectively the same as the Glycemic Index Diet and the South Beach
Diet and the Body for Life diet and "eating clean", i.e., getting
healthy fats from seeds and fish and lean protein sources like egg
whites and chicken breasts and protein powder and limiting carbs so that
you only eat ones that are either high in fiber or high in
phytonutrients, i.e., no junk food. Shocking concept, eh? :-)

I was watching PBS Frontiers yesterday, a show called "Losing It", and
the most successful person was doing the Zone diet and exercise. It's a
way of life that is quite sustainable, in my opinion. It just needs a
bit of pre-planning to make sure protein is around when you want a snack
since simple carbs appear by magic but protein has to be planned for.

Dally

That T Woman wrote:

"Dally" wrote in message

I sincerely hope this helps, because now I get to have a whole bunch of
people call me a FFID all over again.

FFID? I don't know that one but from the context it can't be good.

It means "Fat **** in Denial" and refers to all the people who claim
that they are too special to lose weight via diet and exercise. It
normally means they're just eating too damn much, but I do believe that
sometimes it means they're just doing it wrong. That's the
controversial part: the MFW mavens will argue that it ALWAYS means
they're just eating too damn much.

I've
been trying to make my workouts more intense but shorter but all I do is
make myself sore.

Well, some DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) is normal and to be
expected and you just take some ibuprofin and bear it. If you mean
"ouch" sore WHILE you're doing the exercise then you're doing something
wrong.

So today I'm having a recovery day because my arms and
legs honestly couldn't take it today.

You need to give your arms and legs time to recover and build muscle
after you've worked the muscle (i.e., created tiny tears in it.) But
you don't usually have to after doing a cardio workout.

But still, intensity is good if you're trying to get better at using the
fat, IMO. (SJ, shall I trot out Covert Bailey's "Better Butter Burner"
story now?)

Dally

(vlcd_hell) wrote in message om...
No, no offense taken at any advice offered. The last post was helpful.
Don't think Cushing's is a possibility based on the symptoms (eg, no
bruising), but interesting data. Perhaps I should have my cortisol
levels checked.

snip

If I recall correctly, the Cushing's effect displays a great deal of
muscle wasting in the limbs (well everywhere really) and a very wasted
appearance. You don't just lose muscle, you look anorexic. The
abdominal fat is on the inside and is not the "spare tire" type of
fat. Also if I remember correctly, Cushing's can induce diabetes
along with insulin resistance as well - that can't be good. But again,
I could be wrong, but I think that if you're flabby, Cushing's is not
likely.

Bob

Thanks Dally, your post helped a lot. I do like this to be
cross-posted between the three diet, nutrition, and weight lifting
forums though since so much advice I read conflicts. Runner sites deal
with eating issues even stronger than here but I haven't included them
yet.

I'm already pretty low-carb. I've been trying to eat more
low-fat/low-carb protein sources since I'm way below the 1g/lb lifting
guideline. I probably could get more sleep, been trying to get to bed
by before 1AM now, but I still tend to naturally wake up after 5 or 6
hours of sleep regardless of when I go to bed. I don't force feed
myself water. I only get thirsty after runs and during lifting free
weights for two hours where I notice I'll start to go for trips to the
water bubbler between sets on the later ones (been worried this is
becoming a bad-habit subconscious excuse for rest between sets). I
tend to drink about two to three cups of water a day. My morning
orange and other foods give me water too. I probably could get more
sleep and water, but don't think it's my main issue.

It was in trying to find what your FFID meant that I found some other
helpful gems of information. The two links below were helpful.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/index.php/t-91293
http://www.eskimo.com/~largesse/Archives/CC.html

FFID is a horrible needlessly antagonistic term. "Fat person in
denial" would be just as truthful without the implied righteousness.
As I said in my post, I know the majority of Americans have no idea
how much food and calories they are consuming. It is obvious at every
vending machine and group meal by everyone around me.

However what brought me into these forums were two things.

First. I finally became frustrated enough to make myself vulnerable by
daring to compare my own notes with others after two years of getting
nowhere on my own (besides the initial VLCD dropping 70lbs). This
summer when trimmer-than-I friends wanted to share workout tips with
me to encourage both of us getting into beach shape, they would become
suddenly extremely alarmist and concerned over both my eating ("too
little") and workout ("too much") regimens. To the point in half the
cases of secretly calling my wife to ask "does he really eat that
little at home?", where they voiced their concerns about my having an
ED. It's happened a half of dozen times now. I was fine eating as
little as I did on my own ("can't eat normal to look better than
normal") but eventually had to ask myself if the concerns of my
honestly concerned friends might have any validity. Is this typical of
a FFID?

Second. The final straw for me was this site:

http://www.johnstonefitness.com/

God bless his results, and good for him, and I'm happy for him. He
started where I did last January when I both looked like his fatter
physique and had his fatter weight and body fat measurements. Shows me
that my Tanita scale body fat reading isn't lying and is about right.
But unlike him after a whole year of countless hours of daily free
weights and aerobic bike rides and runs and kayaking (etc), I still
look like his before picture. No discernable change. Whereas for him
it's extremely noticeable, and what one should expect.

The kicker was looking at his food intake spreadsheets. He eats WAY
more than I do. Before looking at the pictures I snickered at all the
needless 'FFID mistakes' foods he kept (dressings on his salad, sour
cream, orange juice, etc). And yet he had the transformation of losing
body fat and gaining a good lean mass physique that eludes me - as I
eat less than him and work out more than him.

It was the last straw to all the previous "world is amiss" signs I was
seeing around me all year. Coworkers that can go out for lunch
everyday yet stay trim, guys that pop into the free weight room for
only 20 minutes and leave yet have a muscle physique I lack.

As I said in my post, I am thinking of making my workouts even harder
by adding more sprints. I already started to lift 'ridiculous' heavy
weights trying to get my muscle mass to grow (putting me on par with
what the big guys lift), but am now starting to get chronic tendon
pains down the inside bone ridge of my arms (from wrist to elbow).
Other lifters say it's a classic over-use injury. I feel it has
something to do with having to grab the dumb bell bars so tightly. It
hurts when I just grab the dumb bells to lift them off the stand.

But I am already doing two hours of free weights (bar bells and dumb
bells) five days a week. Wish it was an easier answer like you of
switching from Nautilus to free weights. I made that refinement
already last January.

Yeah, sorry for the seeming rage against all the advice I read.
Nothing seems to work despite extreme diligence and dedication.

Like I said, I can add more sprints into my workouts. In fact I did
last night during 45min on the bike rollers, added in about ten
minutes of sprints. In the mirror set up for form checks, the amount
of fat I saw jiggling around my middle made me sick. And I wonder why
my riding ability has suffered. I'm afraid to ever eat more than I
presently do. But will try to force myself to drink whey protein after
my workouts.

The comments from you and on the links about endurance paced workouts
not making a dent for a select few other unfortunates were helpful.
Gave me more encouragement to add harder sprints into my aerobic
workouts.

Any other tips?

(vlcd_hell) wrote in
om:


I'm afraid to ever eat more than I
presently do.

A red flag went off in my mind when i read that. At the beginning of my
new WOL i went on a VLCD and got stuck too!At one time my cals went below
800 a day. I was scared to eat anything. I became weak,tired all the
time,cranky, ect.. Yet i pushed myself to exercise more and more
everyday.
With all that weight training you are doing you do need to eat a good
deal. Where do you think your body will get what it needs to stay alive!
It will turn to your muscle tissue. I know its scary. First you NEED to
go to the doctor and get a total check up. Tell the doctor what your
doing and ask for help.I would bet if all your tests come back normal
that they will put you on a higher cal diet. If i were you i wouldnt
worry about losing weight at this point and focus on getting HEALTHY. If
you have no medical problems now. You may down the road if you dont get
help.




365/222/200

(vlcd_hell) wrote in news:10906938.0401220900.49adc172
@posting.google.com:

This
summer when trimmer-than-I friends wanted to share workout tips with
me to encourage both of us getting into beach shape, they would become
suddenly extremely alarmist and concerned over both my eating ("too
little") and workout ("too much") regimens. To the point in half the
cases of secretly calling my wife to ask "does he really eat that
little at home?", where they voiced their concerns about my having an
ED....

I already started to lift 'ridiculous' heavy
weights trying to get my muscle mass to grow (putting me on par with
what the big guys lift), but am now starting to get chronic tendon
pains down the inside bone ridge of my arms (from wrist to elbow).
Other lifters say it's a classic over-use injury.....

But I am already doing two hours of free weights (bar bells and dumb
bells) five days a week....

Like I said, I can add more sprints into my workouts. In fact I did
last night during 45min on the bike rollers, added in about ten
minutes of sprints....

Gave me more encouragement to add harder sprints into my aerobic
workouts....


I am not an expert, but it looks like your goals are at war with each
other. That much aerobics and that much lifting with no rest doesn't give
your body a chance to build itself back up. And now you're injuring
yourself (believe the people who are telling you about overuse injuries).

Howabout:
* cut the aerobics to 2x week, no more than 1 hour a day. You can do
sprints *one* of these days.

* cut the weights to 3x week, no more than 45 min a day. Don't go
ridiculous heavy--do a plain vanilla not-to-failure whole-body routine.

* gradually increase your eating by adding protien and a little fat to your
diet.

This would put your exercise and diet more in the known universe. It would
be interesting to see if your weight increases or if your body adapts in
some different way.

BTW, don't stress over the FFID thing. Regulars in this group throw it
around all the time, not necessarily with any particular malice behind it.

Hugh


--
Help! My myofibrillar material is disorganized!

vlcd_hell wrote:

Any other tips?

I'm going to type this slowly. If you cannot understand the following
sentance then I suspect you *do* have an eating disorder.

Eat more calories. You need to be eating at least 8x your weight in
calories.

Aim to get no more than 50% of your calories from carbs and make what
carbs you eat be high in fiber (i.e., vegetables and fruits and whole
grains.)

Eat more often. You should be eating at least four times a day.

Drink more water. You should be drinking at least 6 cups of water.
Yes, force yourself to have a glass. A good tip is to down an entire
glass when you first wake up in the morning, and down another glass when
you get downstairs and take your vitamins.

If eating less and exercising more is not working then is it really sane
to eat even less and exercise even more? You've got no chance of
gaining muscle when you're on a VLCD, right? So maybe that means you're
LOSING muscle? Think about it. Doing the same thing over and over
again hoping for a different result is insane. Change it.

And I'm dropping sci.med.nutrition because they're all way too nutty.

Dally

Dally wrote in -
berlin.de:



And I'm dropping sci.med.nutrition because they're all way too nutty.

Dally



LOL yeah. Some of the views kinda wierd me out a bit.

"Dally" wrote in message
...
vlcd_hell wrote:

Any other tips?

I'm going to type this slowly. If you cannot understand the following
sentance then I suspect you *do* have an eating disorder.

Eat more calories. You need to be eating at least 8x your weight in
calories.

Aim to get no more than 50% of your calories from carbs and make what
carbs you eat be high in fiber (i.e., vegetables and fruits and whole
grains.)

Eat more often. You should be eating at least four times a day.

Drink more water. You should be drinking at least 6 cups of water.
Yes, force yourself to have a glass. A good tip is to down an entire
glass when you first wake up in the morning, and down another glass when
you get downstairs and take your vitamins.

If eating less and exercising more is not working then is it really sane
to eat even less and exercise even more?

That's the definition of insanity, right? Doing the same thing and
expecting different results?

det