New Target of the Food Police (CSPI)

In article ,
toto wrote:

For example, if a student writes a story, the teacher should tell him
or her what is good about it and model the correct language.

There you go -- the teacher sets the standard by which the work is judged.
Positive feedback IS a reward!

Not in the sense of external rewards. The child gets to judge for
himself whether his work is good or bad as a whole. You are giving
him standards to judge by, not rewards.

And the positive attention from the teacher isn't a reward?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:34:03 +1100, Chookie
wrote:

In article ,
toto wrote:

For example, if a student writes a story, the teacher should tell him
or her what is good about it and model the correct language.

There you go -- the teacher sets the standard by which the work is judged.
Positive feedback IS a reward!

Not in the sense of external rewards. The child gets to judge for
himself whether his work is good or bad as a whole. You are giving
him standards to judge by, not rewards.

And the positive attention from the teacher isn't a reward?

There is a difference between encouragement and praise.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article ,
toto wrote:

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:34:03 +1100, Chookie
wrote:

In article ,
toto wrote:

For example, if a student writes a story, the teacher should tell him
or her what is good about it and model the correct language.

There you go -- the teacher sets the standard by which the work is
judged.
Positive feedback IS a reward!

Not in the sense of external rewards. The child gets to judge for
himself whether his work is good or bad as a whole. You are giving
him standards to judge by, not rewards.

And the positive attention from the teacher isn't a reward?

There is a difference between encouragement and praise.

Please elucidate. To me, telling a person that they have met an external
standard is a type of reward. Giving them a chocolate for the same reason is
also a reward. Some rewards are better than others, but I don't think we can
eliminate external rewards (which is what I think you would like).

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:43:24 +1100, Chookie
wrote:

And the positive attention from the teacher isn't a reward?

There is a difference between encouragement and praise.

Please elucidate. To me, telling a person that they have met
an external standard is a type of reward.

Telling them they have met an external standard if the standard
is objective isn't a reward because they can verify that they met
the standard without your input if they know what the standard
is. Teachers can simply tell them what the standard is so they
can evaluate the work for themselves.

Giving them a chocolate for the same reason is also a reward.

This is a reward and one that doesn't even relate to the work.
That is one of the problems with rewards. They don't tell you
anything, except that someone else approves of you. They
don't give you a standard to judge your work by.

Some rewards are better than others, but I don't think we can
eliminate external rewards (which is what I think you would like).

I think we can. Internal rewards given by the person himself, otoh,
will not be eliminated, but we can almost eliminate rewards that
are external if we allow kids to judge for themselves.

Examples he

If I say *you are a good boy for cleaning your room,* the child may
know that he didn't do such a good job (maybe he pushed some of
the toys under the bed). If I give him a sticker, he knows that he
got the sticker under false pretenses and he will be tempted to
do the job quickly and only to what he knows you will see since
that gets him his sticker. If I say you put all the blocks on the
shelf and the books are all lined up straight, then I have given him
an objective standard and he can think *I did a good job cleaning
up, but I can do better next time, if I put away the stuff I hid under
the bed.*


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article ,
toto wrote:

Please elucidate. To me, telling a person that they have met
an external standard is a type of reward.

Telling them they have met an external standard if the standard
is objective isn't a reward because they can verify that they met
the standard without your input if they know what the standard
is. Teachers can simply tell them what the standard is so they
can evaluate the work for themselves.

You are still imposing an external standard on the child in doing this, which
is the point I was trying to make. You can list how the child performed
against certain criteria, and you can summarise it with a class mark, but
either way, you the teacher have set the standard, and rewarded the child by
telling him how he has met it. Your approval, your enthusiasm for his meeting
the standard, is the reward.

Now I don't have a problem with the imposition of standards. To me, that's
what civilising a child is about -- indoctrinating them (enculturating them,
if you prefer) in standards of behaviour, work and so on. However, I think
your categories of good and bad rewards are a bit too black and white.

Examples he

If I say *you are a good boy for cleaning your room,* the child may
know that he didn't do such a good job (maybe he pushed some of
the toys under the bed). If I give him a sticker, he knows that he
got the sticker under false pretenses and he will be tempted to
do the job quickly and only to what he knows you will see since
that gets him his sticker. If I say you put all the blocks on the
shelf and the books are all lined up straight, then I have given him
an objective standard and he can think *I did a good job cleaning
up, but I can do better next time, if I put away the stuff I hid under
the bed.*

Or alternatively, he knows he has your approval
under false pretences, and he will be tempted to
do the job quickly and only to what he knows you will see since
that gets him
the approval he wants anyway!
(not that I have any personal experience of this sort of thinking, no not me;
I'd never do that!)

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc