Ok, fine, whatever, I give up

"Penelope Baker" writes:
Well since the purpose of the carb up isn't solely to feed muscle glycogen,
but also to stimulate the leptin/thyroid situation, bloated isn't *all* bad,
just uncomfortable.

I've not seen any info about non-muscle carb-ups, though. I suspect
the muscle activity helps boost metabolism as well as the leptin,
though. It also helps keep the dietary fat from being deposited as
adipose tissue if you do it right - on UD2 you eat about 4000 calories
that day, and still burn body fat.

The trick to a carb-up is to keep insulin and BG high for 24-48 hours.
If you can do that with less carbs, it might work, but I haven't seen
anything that talks about that particular situation.

Hi,
On 15-Apr-2004, "Nani" wrote:

~~~waves at Carmen~~~ always glad to see you

Hi back at ya, Nani. :-)

take care,
Carmen
PS: Where in the southeast are you (keying off your headers)?

DigitalVinyl wrote:
:: Luna wrote:
::
::: In article , DJ Delorie
::: wrote:
:::
:::: Ok, where are you now then? Height, weight, %bf, goal? Have you
:::: checked your morning temp recently (before you get up and move
:::: around is best)? Blood pressure?
::::
:::
::: Height: 5'4", weight, 156, BF% 27.5. Morning temp? I have no
::: idea, never heard of checking it as part of a weight loss plan.
::: Blood pressure was normal last I had it checked, in November.
:::
:::: I'm at the point where I eat 1200 kcals/day AND do 500 kcals of
:::: cardio a day AND only lose a pound or so a week. Some folks just
:::: have a hard time at this point, you may be one of them. There are
:::: things you can do to get past this point, but you have to try a
:::: few things to find out what they are.
::::
:::
::: I would be thrilled with 1 pound lost a week. Or one pound a
::: month! I haven't lost at all since January.
:::
:::: The first step, assuming you're willing to try something new, is to
:::: find your maintenance level and "normalize" your diet. Higher
:::: carbs (isocaloric if you can) at maintenance cals (14-16x lbm) for
:::: two weeks. This should reset any diet-related metabolic stuff.
:::
::: Well, at 1200 cals a day, I've been eating around 8x body weight.
::: But when I was at 2000 a day, I wasn't losing or gaining then
::: either.
::
:: Luna, I gotta say that you are one of the people in the group that
:: makes me seriously call into doubt the whole exercise more, eat less
:: answer-to-everything. You don't say your frame size but I'ld guess
:: you were 20-40 lbs overweight, you're doing all this exercise, you're
:: eating *VERY* little and not loosing weight.

You seem to call into question anything and everything you personally don't
like, or things you personally don't want to do.

Luna, just recently, was posting about how she was overeating and upset by
it. Here, just a scant few weeks later, it's all this exercise and no
eating. But yet, there's undereating here then getting hungry and
overeating there. And now you're ready to "call into doubt" and using
phrases such as "you're doing all this exericse, you're eating *VERY* little
and not loosing weight?" Perhaps there are other reasons for that....


:: Something has to be
:: wrong there. I've seen people basically answer stalls with starve
:: yourself more. That has always seemed like such an insane answer.
:: What healthy person constantly starves their body? Only dieters
:: think this is normal behavior.

Eating less does not equal constantly starving. Geez....Eating less to
achieve a weight goal is normal behavior. It's only considered non-normal by
those who find the notion of eating less abnormal.

::
:: If you could eat 2000 and maintain and now you are eating 1200, I
:: would think you are starving your body and simply making it desperate
:: to survive the hard famine it is currently experiencing.

If that is what is really happening, and if that is happening over an
extended period of time - then maybe. But you need to be certain of the
facts before making conclusions. And even if those conclusions are correct
for Luna, it is entirely another matter as to whether they are correct for
YOU.

THis is were
:: calorie-in-calorie-out really doesn't f***ing matter. Your body is
:: capable of conserving energy so much so that your non-exercising life
:: (including breathing, eathing, pumping blody) now only requires 700
:: calories a day. (1200-500 of cardio) Sound severe enough yet?

Hey, I weigh way more than Luna and have done more exercise and eat less,
and I lost weight.

::
:: I think you have to introduce more food into your diet and let your
:: body work under more normal circumstances.
::

What are normal circumstances?

:::: Next, "a change is as good as a vacation." Something like a CKD or
:::: UD2 carb-up, or a high-calorie fat "fast", or even just a
:::: "food-up", might kick-start your metabolism again. Some folks
:::: have to carb-up regularly to keep their metabolism going, others
:::: just need to food-up.
:::
::: I'm wary of "carbing up" since the more carbs I eat, the hungrier I
::: get.
::
:: That's why you have to spend months on just introducing carbs. To
:: build up your menu with safe items that have proven safe. People fool
:: themselves into being ultra-low is best but it means they have no
:: idea how to eat to maintain when they are done.

that may be true. She may need to adjust her carbs upwards.

I count calories so
:: I can watch for bad carbs. But I still have to be wary. I've gotten
:: used to having something low-carb & chocolatey now. It is not the
:: best thing for me to do even though I am not overeating at all. BUt
:: I do look for something chocolatey late in the day now... which
:: would be bad if no low-carb chocolate is around. But chocolate has
:: always been a weakness.

Then you'd be advised to limit your chocolate for continued success.

::
::: Honestly, I feel like I've been eating less than I should. Or
::: maybe just less often than I should. I delay eating until I'm
::: _really_ hungry, to try to make sure it's not just boredom, and
::: then I end up eating too much, and then I skip dinner because I ate
::: so much at lunch, ya know? So then I wake up starving and have too
::: big a breakfast, and then I skip lunch because breakfast was so
::: huge, then I overeat at dinner and start the whole stupid cycle
::: over again. No wonder it's not working. I look at it written down
::: now and it looks so stupid. I keep oscillating between being
::: afraid to eat, and being too hungry to care if I eat too much.

Listen -- are you eating too much or not? So what if you had a big dinner
if you're still eating only 1200 kcal average per day? Either the problem
here is in your mind or you're not reporting right.

I frequently play with available calories. If I should feel like eating
more now, I can compensate if I want to by eating less later. And if I
don't want to compensate, I just eat what I want and live the results. No
one is forcing me to lose weight any faster than I'm ready to lose it.
Luna, you simply need to realize that there are going to be times when you
just don't want to push that hard. So, recognize that and act accordingly.
Then, later on, after you feel emotionally refreshed, start again. Or
don't!

::
:: Bad habits. But I think typical among frustrated dieters. I'd like
:: to believe we can all eat reasonably and maintain a reasonably
:: healthy weight. We just have to figure out what is preventing us
:: from being that way. Be it carbs, food obsessions, emotional issues,
:: disease, etc.
::
::: So here's what I'll
::: do. Sorry I got so negative before, I'm gonna blame it on the
::: unusually severe neck pain I've had today. Anyway, I'm going back
::: to eating small, frequent meals throughout the day, bollucks to
::: calorie counting, and I'll see what happens.
:::
:::
:::: Another option is to just wait. Eat at maintenance, worrying only
:::: about not gaining, and let your body rest at its current weight
:::: for a month or so. Then resume dieting and see what happens.

To me, that sounds like the best option for someone who is frustrated. Just
chill the hell out!

DJ Delorie wrote:

RRzVRR writes:

So I was saying that she's considered around average/acceptable --
which is so much better than overweight or obese, but there is room
for improvement.

I agree, and judging from her photos, she's more than just
"acceptable" :-)

Agreed.

Luna, most of the women in this newsgroup would *kill* to have your
body. Most of the guys too, but for a different meaning for "have".

So progress has sucked lately, try something different. You've got a
few suggestions, pick one and go.

But whether it works or not, keep in mind that you are a hot, young
chick right now!

--
Newbie tip: Read the FAQ. It's posted here daily, contains tons of
great info on low-carbing and lots of links to more great info and tons
of recipes too!

In article .net,
RRzVRR wrote:

Luna wrote:

I've been working out 5 - 6 days a week, weight lifting 3x a week,
cardio
as a warm up on weight days, and more cardio on non-weight days. I'm
pushing myself as hard as I can on the working out. I've been averaging
around 1200 calories a day, about 30g of carbs a day.

Tell us exactly what you've been doing: lifts, weight, sets, reps,
and some equally exact numbers for your cardio work.

The cardio warm up is usually 10 - 15 minutes on an eliptical machine, as
hard as I can go without my heart rate getting too high. I don't have a
heart rate monitor, so I judge it by my breathing - if I can still talk,
it's not too high.

The cardio on non-weight days is either a cardio dance class or a
yoga/pilates class. Since the yoga/pilates doesn't get my heart rate up
much, I do about 15 minutes of brisk walking on those days too, as a warm
up for the class. Or if the walking track is closed, I go up and down the
stairs 10 times.

My other cardio activities are sporadic and include stuff like playing
soccer or tag with the kids I work with, but I don't "count" that stuff as
an official part of my workout.

For my weight lifting, I do 2 sets of 8-12 reps on each of these machines,
currently at these weights, when I get to 12 reps I up the weight by 5
pounds.

Leg Press: 85
Leg Curl: 40
Leg Extension: 15
Chest Press: 20
Row/Rear Delt: 35
Overhead Press: 15
Arm Curl: 20
Arm Extension: 25
Ab Crunch: 45
Back Extension: 60

All of these weights are higher than when I started except the leg
extension. That one is so difficult even at such a low weight that I
wonder if maybe I'm deformed and I was actually born without those muscles,
lol.

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

In article ,
"Roger Zoul" wrote:


Luna, just recently, was posting about how she was overeating and upset by
it. Here, just a scant few weeks later, it's all this exercise and no
eating. But yet, there's undereating here then getting hungry and
overeating there. And now you're ready to "call into doubt" and using
phrases such as "you're doing all this exericse, you're eating *VERY* little
and not loosing weight?" Perhaps there are other reasons for that....



To clarify, when I was overeating, I'd go up to 1700-1800 calories for a
day or two, then restrict myself the next day and go down to 700-800
calories. What bothered me the most about eating too much wasn't the
calories consumed, it was the fact that I was eating when I _knew_ I wasn't
hungry. I think lately I've been doing so much eating when not hungry, and
not eating when hungry, that I've thouroughly confused my body and it
doesn't know what the hell is going on.

--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

Luna wrote in message .. .
Hi Luna,

I'm no expert, but from reading your posts, I'm going to guess that
you're not eating enough calories. I wouldn't change, necessarily, the
kinds of foods you eat...keep it low carb. But, I would increase the
calories. For as active as you are, your body probably needs more than
1200/day to function. If it doesn't get what it needs, your metabolism
slows down a lot, because the body goes into what I call "starvation
mode" when it adapts to the limited fuel it's getting by conserving
the stores of fuel it has (fat) for use when the famine really sets
in.

Mix up your exercise, increase your calories for a week or so and let
us know what happens. You may also want to consider a consultation
with a dietician/nutritionist who might have some insight.

Also, have you read Gary Heavin's book (the Curves founder)? I
haven't, but I know he developed the Curves eating plan when he met
his wife. Apparently, she was an exercise fanatic but still had some
weight to lose and was trying to do it by eating 800 calories a day or
something and exercising several hours a day. Once she ate the
appropriate number of calories for her muscle mass and active
lifestyle, the rest of the weight came off. Maybe your Curves has a
copy you can borrow?

Best of luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

Lee


Well, I _thought_ I'd broken my stall, but I went for my last weigh-in at
Curves today, and I was down a half pound. Which is back to what I was in
January. I go from 156 to 156.5 and back to 156, with likewise minute
fluctuations in measurements that are probably due to different people
measuring me in slightly different ways.

I've been working out 5 - 6 days a week, weight lifting 3x a week, cardio
as a warm up on weight days, and more cardio on non-weight days. I'm
pushing myself as hard as I can on the working out. I've been averaging
around 1200 calories a day, about 30g of carbs a day.

I'm NOT giving up on low-carb. I like eating this way, and at least I'm
not gaining. I'm not giving up on exercise either, because I like it too.
But I guess I need to give up on losing any more weight, because apparently
this is where my body wants to be, and to tell you the truth I'd rather be
at this weight forever than eat any less, because I'm already restricting
myself enough so that it's a pain in the butt and I'm hungry most of the
time. I've butched up about as much as I can. No, that's not true, I
could eat less. I could force myself to eat one small salad a day and
nothing else. But what's the point? Been there, done that, hated every
minute of it way more than I hate being fat. I'm not saying I love to pig
out more than I hate being fat, it's not about wanting to eat huge portions
of stuff, it's about how I don't think I could stick with being hungry when
I go to bed, hungry when I wake up, hungry all day long, stomach growling
loud enough that other people can hear it, ****ed off because I've just
eaten a hard boiled egg for lunch and I'm still hungry, for the rest of my
life. I have always been skeptical about people who say they don't eat a
lot and they do exercise but they can't lose weight, and now look at me,
I've become what I ridiculed. Whatever. **** it.

"Roger Zoul" wrote:

DigitalVinyl wrote:
:: Luna wrote:
::
::: In article , DJ Delorie
::: wrote:
:::
:::: Ok, where are you now then? Height, weight, %bf, goal? Have you
:::: checked your morning temp recently (before you get up and move
:::: around is best)? Blood pressure?
::::
:::
::: Height: 5'4", weight, 156, BF% 27.5. Morning temp? I have no
::: idea, never heard of checking it as part of a weight loss plan.
::: Blood pressure was normal last I had it checked, in November.
:::
:::: I'm at the point where I eat 1200 kcals/day AND do 500 kcals of
:::: cardio a day AND only lose a pound or so a week. Some folks just
:::: have a hard time at this point, you may be one of them. There are
:::: things you can do to get past this point, but you have to try a
:::: few things to find out what they are.
::::
:::
::: I would be thrilled with 1 pound lost a week. Or one pound a
::: month! I haven't lost at all since January.
:::
:::: The first step, assuming you're willing to try something new, is to
:::: find your maintenance level and "normalize" your diet. Higher
:::: carbs (isocaloric if you can) at maintenance cals (14-16x lbm) for
:::: two weeks. This should reset any diet-related metabolic stuff.
:::
::: Well, at 1200 cals a day, I've been eating around 8x body weight.
::: But when I was at 2000 a day, I wasn't losing or gaining then
::: either.
::
:: Luna, I gotta say that you are one of the people in the group that
:: makes me seriously call into doubt the whole exercise more, eat less
:: answer-to-everything. You don't say your frame size but I'ld guess
:: you were 20-40 lbs overweight, you're doing all this exercise, you're
:: eating *VERY* little and not loosing weight.

You seem to call into question anything and everything you personally don't
like, or things you personally don't want to do.

Of course, when things don't make sense to me I question them. Only
way to find better answers. SOmewhere down the line I will run into
the same situation and I need to understand how to deal with it, even
if I'm not in those shoes now.

Luna, just recently, was posting about how she was overeating and upset by
it. Here, just a scant few weeks later, it's all this exercise and no
eating.
Was she overeating (high calorie consumption over days) or
mini-binge-ing at a meal(large single meals). Cause she descirbes
starving herself until she eats large meals cause she's so hungry.
Despite this she says she's at 1200 a day.

But yet, there's undereating here then getting hungry and
overeating there. And now you're ready to "call into doubt" and using
phrases such as "you're doing all this exericse, you're eating *VERY* little
and not loosing weight?" Perhaps there are other reasons for that....

Yes! But a common reaction is reduce your intake--like JesusChrist der
King always says. She isn't loosing weight, so the "WAY" to lose
weight is to exercise more eat less. Using this hammer-logic she's
overeating or simply too inactive. Unless she is exaggerating here, I
wouldn't think that is the case, possibly the opposite! Though
obviously she is leaning that way--she is thinking she should eat less
even though she is going hungry every day and doesn't want to eat
less. I wouldn't be surprised if pushing herself so low with the
elevated activity is the why the stall has lasted. My landlord(60yr
female) who doesn't have much to lose has also been stalled 3 months.
Her doctor said eat less. She already thinks she is eating very little
and was feeling frustration by the generic, starve-yourself more
advice.

:: Something has to be
:: wrong there. I've seen people basically answer stalls with starve
:: yourself more. That has always seemed like such an insane answer.
:: What healthy person constantly starves their body? Only dieters
:: think this is normal behavior.

Eating less does not equal constantly starving. Geez....Eating less to
achieve a weight goal is normal behavior. It's only considered non-normal by
those who find the notion of eating less abnormal.

People often talk about sending the body into "starvation mode", you
don't seem upset by that terminology, even though no one is actually
looking like some african starvation victim. She may simply not be
ready to lose more weight in a healthy way. Frustrating herself at
lower calories and not loosing weight seems an unhealthy thing to do.
I guess I have to add, IMO

:: If you could eat 2000 and maintain and now you are eating 1200, I
:: would think you are starving your body and simply making it desperate
:: to survive the hard famine it is currently experiencing.

If that is what is really happening, and if that is happening over an
extended period of time - then maybe. But you need to be certain of the
facts before making conclusions. And even if those conclusions are correct
for Luna, it is entirely another matter as to whether they are correct for
YOU.

Uh, duh. Unfortunately we only have what Luna gives us to go on. Since
I'm not allowed to make conclusions then perhaps I should use more
tentative phrases such as "I would think", oh wait I did. friendly
sarcasm

IMHO, YRMV, I personally don't think of my current eating as weight
loss, but as maintenance. It is just maintenance for some future
weight level. I don't know what that weight level is yet. The weight
loss/gain is just the body balancing out the scales. The way I'm
eating TODAY ***IS*** the way I would eat FOREVER at that weight
level. If the way I'm eating can only get me down to 250 lbs then I
will have to learn to live with that. If I want to become the person
that exercises five times a week to get down to 200 lbs, then I will
have to do that FOREVER. If I don't, my weight will come back to the
250 level whenever I let up onthe activity level. To me this is common
sense. Exercising for the purpose of losing weight doesn't make sense.
Exercising for physical fitness and personal enjoyment does.

Whatever regimen you have during the weight loss is what you must
continue forever.

THis is were
:: calorie-in-calorie-out really doesn't f***ing matter. Your body is
:: capable of conserving energy so much so that your non-exercising life
:: (including breathing, eathing, pumping blody) now only requires 700
:: calories a day. (1200-500 of cardio) Sound severe enough yet?

Hey, I weigh way more than Luna and have done more exercise and eat less,
and I lost weight.

My point is there are lot more important factors of what is going on
in the body. And those factors can make reduced-caloric goals useless
in the face of those other factors. Carbs-insulin is only one example.
You can try to eat 1200 calories but if you have a carb-insulin
problem you will likely fail because reduced calorie isn't dealing
with what is wrong. COunting calories alone is dealing with a symptom.

:: I think you have to introduce more food into your diet and let your
:: body work under more normal circumstances.

What are normal circumstances?

For me (and I'm guessing people with insulin-carb issues), learning
that the appetites you used to have AREN'T normal. The way my body
eats now is totally different from my entire life before. My appetite
shrunk so much it freaked me out at first. What I consider a meal
then and now are different. I'm also not afraid of my hunger. I acan
trust my body more to tell me when I need food. When i introduce
something that alters my hunger(upward) I realize I'm eating more than
I have needed to. I have a new sense of what is normal without carbs.
I still have 2500 calorie days and I have even 800 calories days--no
big deal--that's normal now. But my average is floating from 1600 to
1900. And it tends to increase with activity-which makes sense to me.

:::: Next, "a change is as good as a vacation." Something like a CKD or
:::: UD2 carb-up, or a high-calorie fat "fast", or even just a
:::: "food-up", might kick-start your metabolism again. Some folks
:::: have to carb-up regularly to keep their metabolism going, others
:::: just need to food-up.
:::
::: I'm wary of "carbing up" since the more carbs I eat, the hungrier I
::: get.
::
:: That's why you have to spend months on just introducing carbs. To
:: build up your menu with safe items that have proven safe. People fool
:: themselves into being ultra-low is best but it means they have no
:: idea how to eat to maintain when they are done.

that may be true. She may need to adjust her carbs upwards.

I count calories so
:: I can watch for bad carbs. But I still have to be wary. I've gotten
:: used to having something low-carb & chocolatey now. It is not the
:: best thing for me to do even though I am not overeating at all. BUt
:: I do look for something chocolatey late in the day now... which
:: would be bad if no low-carb chocolate is around. But chocolate has
:: always been a weakness.

Then you'd be advised to limit your chocolate for continued success.

Yep, it is my current concern, despite the last two weeks representing
a decrease in total calories from about 1900 to under 1700. I find
myself looking forward to a taste of chocolate (always have). I can't
figure out if it is a good thing that I've found that a small amount
of chocolate (one 10g 1" square brownie, 1/2 cup of ice cream, two
kershey kisses) satisfies me enough or bad that I still want them.
Even when I had no chocolate I still wanted it.

::: Honestly, I feel like I've been eating less than I should. Or
::: maybe just less often than I should. I delay eating until I'm
::: _really_ hungry, to try to make sure it's not just boredom, and
::: then I end up eating too much, and then I skip dinner because I ate
::: so much at lunch, ya know? So then I wake up starving and have too
::: big a breakfast, and then I skip lunch because breakfast was so
::: huge, then I overeat at dinner and start the whole stupid cycle
::: over again. No wonder it's not working. I look at it written down
::: now and it looks so stupid. I keep oscillating between being
::: afraid to eat, and being too hungry to care if I eat too much.

Listen -- are you eating too much or not? So what if you had a big dinner
if you're still eating only 1200 kcal average per day? Either the problem
here is in your mind or you're not reporting right.

I frequently play with available calories. If I should feel like eating
more now, I can compensate if I want to by eating less later. And if I
don't want to compensate, I just eat what I want and live the results. No
one is forcing me to lose weight any faster than I'm ready to lose it.
Luna, you simply need to realize that there are going to be times when you
just don't want to push that hard. So, recognize that and act accordingly.
Then, later on, after you feel emotionally refreshed, start again. Or
don't!

Sounds like good advice.

:: Bad habits. But I think typical among frustrated dieters. I'd like
:: to believe we can all eat reasonably and maintain a reasonably
:: healthy weight. We just have to figure out what is preventing us
:: from being that way. Be it carbs, food obsessions, emotional issues,
:: disease, etc.
::
::: So here's what I'll
::: do. Sorry I got so negative before, I'm gonna blame it on the
::: unusually severe neck pain I've had today. Anyway, I'm going back
::: to eating small, frequent meals throughout the day, bollucks to
::: calorie counting, and I'll see what happens.
:::
:::
:::: Another option is to just wait. Eat at maintenance, worrying only
:::: about not gaining, and let your body rest at its current weight
:::: for a month or so. Then resume dieting and see what happens.

To me, that sounds like the best option for someone who is frustrated. Just
chill the hell out!


DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/302/Apr-299/200
Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
OWL-50 carbs/day (CCLL=?)

Luna wrote:
:: In article ,
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::
::: Luna, just recently, was posting about how she was overeating and
::: upset by it. Here, just a scant few weeks later, it's all this
::: exercise and no eating. But yet, there's undereating here then
::: getting hungry and overeating there. And now you're ready to "call
::: into doubt" and using phrases such as "you're doing all this
::: exericse, you're eating *VERY* little and not loosing weight?"
::: Perhaps there are other reasons for that....
:::
:::
::
:: To clarify, when I was overeating, I'd go up to 1700-1800 calories
:: for a day or two, then restrict myself the next day and go down to
:: 700-800 calories.

You can effectively average calories out over days.

What bothered me the most about eating too much
:: wasn't the calories consumed, it was the fact that I was eating when
:: I _knew_ I wasn't hungry. I think lately I've been doing so much
:: eating when not hungry, and not eating when hungry, that I've
:: thouroughly confused my body and it doesn't know what the hell is
:: going on.

I think that's a good thing as long as you manage to keep at a calorie
deficit and don't overeat carbs.

Sometimes, you just gotta eat....at least I do.

DigitalVinyl wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: DigitalVinyl wrote:
::::: Luna wrote:
:::::
:::::: In article , DJ Delorie
:::::: wrote:
::::::
::::::: Ok, where are you now then? Height, weight, %bf, goal? Have
::::::: you checked your morning temp recently (before you get up and
::::::: move around is best)? Blood pressure?
:::::::
::::::
:::::: Height: 5'4", weight, 156, BF% 27.5. Morning temp? I have no
:::::: idea, never heard of checking it as part of a weight loss plan.
:::::: Blood pressure was normal last I had it checked, in November.
::::::
::::::: I'm at the point where I eat 1200 kcals/day AND do 500 kcals of
::::::: cardio a day AND only lose a pound or so a week. Some folks
::::::: just have a hard time at this point, you may be one of them.
::::::: There are things you can do to get past this point, but you
::::::: have to try a few things to find out what they are.
:::::::
::::::
:::::: I would be thrilled with 1 pound lost a week. Or one pound a
:::::: month! I haven't lost at all since January.
::::::
::::::: The first step, assuming you're willing to try something new,
::::::: is to find your maintenance level and "normalize" your diet.
::::::: Higher carbs (isocaloric if you can) at maintenance cals
::::::: (14-16x lbm) for two weeks. This should reset any diet-related
::::::: metabolic stuff.
::::::
:::::: Well, at 1200 cals a day, I've been eating around 8x body weight.
:::::: But when I was at 2000 a day, I wasn't losing or gaining then
:::::: either.
:::::
::::: Luna, I gotta say that you are one of the people in the group that
::::: makes me seriously call into doubt the whole exercise more, eat
::::: less answer-to-everything. You don't say your frame size but I'ld
::::: guess you were 20-40 lbs overweight, you're doing all this
::::: exercise, you're eating *VERY* little and not loosing weight.
:::
::: You seem to call into question anything and everything you
::: personally don't like, or things you personally don't want to do.
::
:: Of course, when things don't make sense to me I question them. Only
:: way to find better answers. SOmewhere down the line I will run into
:: the same situation and I need to understand how to deal with it, even
:: if I'm not in those shoes now.

That's fair. But don't assume from one person's emotional rant that you can
draw conclusions or even call things into question. The answer is usually
very complicated and very, very YMMV.

::
::: Luna, just recently, was posting about how she was overeating and
::: upset by it. Here, just a scant few weeks later, it's all this
::: exercise and no eating.
:: Was she overeating (high calorie consumption over days) or
:: mini-binge-ing at a meal(large single meals).

I think both, and also eating way more some days and way less others.

Cause she descirbes
:: starving herself until she eats large meals cause she's so hungry.
:: Despite this she says she's at 1200 a day.

See -- the use of the word starving....just eating 700 kcals on two days
right behind eating 1800 kcals the prior two days ain't starving. It might
be fair to refer to it as going hungry, but it damn sure ain't starving. I
do that and I weigh a good bit more than Luna does.

::
::: But yet, there's undereating here then getting hungry and
::: overeating there. And now you're ready to "call into doubt" and
::: using phrases such as "you're doing all this exericse, you're
::: eating *VERY* little and not loosing weight?" Perhaps there are
::: other reasons for that....
::
:: Yes! But a common reaction is reduce your intake--like JesusChrist
:: der King always says.



:: She isn't loosing weight, so the "WAY" to lose
:: weight is to exercise more eat less. Using this hammer-logic she's
:: overeating or simply too inactive. Unless she is exaggerating here, I
:: wouldn't think that is the case, possibly the opposite!

Another possibility is simply that enough time hasn't gone by. I read this
group daily and I follow Luna's post, so I keep track of what she reports.
Not very long ago she reported of eating too much. I don't believe this is
a simple matter of just exerscising like crazy, starving, and not losing
weight. Also, one needs to examine that types of exercise being done and
the cardio being done. No detail was given in these posts about that.


Though
:: obviously she is leaning that way--she is thinking she should eat
:: less even though she is going hungry every day and doesn't want to
:: eat less. I wouldn't be surprised if pushing herself so low with the
:: elevated activity is the why the stall has lasted. My landlord(60yr
:: female) who doesn't have much to lose has also been stalled 3 months.
:: Her doctor said eat less. She already thinks she is eating very
:: little and was feeling frustration by the generic, starve-yourself
:: more advice.

Hey -- losing weight is hard. Doing things that are hard bring on
frustration for many. That's life. However, how one things about the
process can have a big impact on whether or not one gets frustrated.


::
::::: Something has to be
::::: wrong there. I've seen people basically answer stalls with starve
::::: yourself more. That has always seemed like such an insane answer.
::::: What healthy person constantly starves their body? Only dieters
::::: think this is normal behavior.
:::
::: Eating less does not equal constantly starving. Geez....Eating less
::: to achieve a weight goal is normal behavior. It's only considered
::: non-normal by those who find the notion of eating less abnormal.
::
:: People often talk about sending the body into "starvation mode", you
:: don't seem upset by that terminology, even though no one is actually
:: looking like some african starvation victim. She may simply not be
:: ready to lose more weight in a healthy way. Frustrating herself at
:: lower calories and not loosing weight seems an unhealthy thing to do.
:: I guess I have to add, IMO

Yes, I agree that frustrating oneself is very unproductive. But the part
about lowering calories, exercising, and not losing weight is yet to be
determined, imo. I do think that for very heavy people or very sedentary
people, and for those with severe metabolic issues there are exceptions.
For example, for those who are very heavy, the best approach to weight loss
initially is just to restrict carbs to generate reduced appetite. That
generated quick easy weight loss -- up to a point. This is where Luna was
and most likely where you are now. Luna now has to deal with the fact that
weight loss won't be so easy anymore. I'd feel sorry for her but this is a
facet of what it means to to gain control over one's weight. She, like us
all, must deal with it.

::
::::: If you could eat 2000 and maintain and now you are eating 1200, I
::::: would think you are starving your body and simply making it
::::: desperate to survive the hard famine it is currently experiencing.
:::
::: If that is what is really happening, and if that is happening over
::: an extended period of time - then maybe. But you need to be
::: certain of the facts before making conclusions. And even if those
::: conclusions are correct for Luna, it is entirely another matter as
::: to whether they are correct for YOU.
::
:: Uh, duh. Unfortunately we only have what Luna gives us to go on.
:: Since I'm not allowed to make conclusions then perhaps I should use
:: more tentative phrases such as "I would think", oh wait I did.
:: friendly sarcasm
::
:: IMHO, YRMV, I personally don't think of my current eating as weight
:: loss, but as maintenance. It is just maintenance for some future
:: weight level. I don't know what that weight level is yet. The weight
:: loss/gain is just the body balancing out the scales. The way I'm
:: eating TODAY ***IS*** the way I would eat FOREVER at that weight
:: level. If the way I'm eating can only get me down to 250 lbs then I
:: will have to learn to live with that. If I want to become the person
:: that exercises five times a week to get down to 200 lbs, then I will
:: have to do that FOREVER. If I don't, my weight will come back to the
:: 250 level whenever I let up onthe activity level. To me this is
:: common sense.

:: Exercising for the purpose of losing weight doesn't
:: make sense. Exercising for physical fitness and personal enjoyment
:: does.

See...here you should have included a "IMO"

When you're heavy, exercising to lose weight makes a great deal of sense.
And if exercise helps you to get to 200 lbs, then that doesn't imply that
you have to maintain that same level to maintain that weight. That exercise
level, in addition to your weight and eating, creates a rate of loss. If you
stop the exercise, you simply end up somewhere else. If you control your
eating, have good muscle mass, and get some exercise, you CAN maintain your
weight.

Your thinking above seems, to me anyway, to be coming from an attitude of
not liking exercise.

::
:: Whatever regimen you have during the weight loss is what you must
:: continue forever.

Says who? Sure, eating is the biggest factor in weight loss. Things such
as exercise are secondary to weight loss (but still important to health).
Hence, if you control the eating, the exercise can vary. IMO, and IME, your
statement is untrue.

::
::: THis is were
::::: calorie-in-calorie-out really doesn't f***ing matter. Your body is
::::: capable of conserving energy so much so that your non-exercising
::::: life (including breathing, eathing, pumping blody) now only
::::: requires 700 calories a day. (1200-500 of cardio) Sound severe
::::: enough yet?
:::
::: Hey, I weigh way more than Luna and have done more exercise and eat
::: less, and I lost weight.
::
:: My point is there are lot more important factors of what is going on
:: in the body. And those factors can make reduced-caloric goals useless
:: in the face of those other factors.

But you called the entire notion into question -- that's quite different
than a YMMV kind of thing like you're saying here, DV.

Carbs-insulin is only one
:: example. You can try to eat 1200 calories but if you have a
:: carb-insulin problem you will likely fail because reduced calorie
:: isn't dealing with what is wrong. COunting calories alone is dealing
:: with a symptom.

But Luna is doing both.

::
::::: I think you have to introduce more food into your diet and let
::::: your body work under more normal circumstances.
:::
::: What are normal circumstances?
::
:: For me (and I'm guessing people with insulin-carb issues), learning
:: that the appetites you used to have AREN'T normal. The way my body
:: eats now is totally different from my entire life before. My appetite
:: shrunk so much it freaked me out at first. What I consider a meal
:: then and now are different. I'm also not afraid of my hunger. I acan
:: trust my body more to tell me when I need food. When i introduce
:: something that alters my hunger(upward) I realize I'm eating more
:: than I have needed to. I have a new sense of what is normal without
:: carbs. I still have 2500 calorie days and I have even 800 calories
:: days--no big deal--that's normal now. But my average is floating
:: from 1600 to 1900. And it tends to increase with activity-which
:: makes sense to me.

That's great!

::
::::::: Next, "a change is as good as a vacation." Something like a
::::::: CKD or UD2 carb-up, or a high-calorie fat "fast", or even just a
::::::: "food-up", might kick-start your metabolism again. Some folks
::::::: have to carb-up regularly to keep their metabolism going, others
::::::: just need to food-up.
::::::
:::::: I'm wary of "carbing up" since the more carbs I eat, the
:::::: hungrier I get.
:::::
::::: That's why you have to spend months on just introducing carbs. To
::::: build up your menu with safe items that have proven safe. People
::::: fool themselves into being ultra-low is best but it means they
::::: have no idea how to eat to maintain when they are done.
:::
::: that may be true. She may need to adjust her carbs upwards.
:::
::: I count calories so
::::: I can watch for bad carbs. But I still have to be wary. I've
::::: gotten used to having something low-carb & chocolatey now. It is
::::: not the best thing for me to do even though I am not overeating
::::: at all. BUt I do look for something chocolatey late in the day
::::: now... which would be bad if no low-carb chocolate is around. But
::::: chocolate has always been a weakness.
:::
::: Then you'd be advised to limit your chocolate for continued success.
::
:: Yep, it is my current concern, despite the last two weeks
:: representing a decrease in total calories from about 1900 to under
:: 1700. I find myself looking forward to a taste of chocolate (always
:: have). I can't figure out if it is a good thing that I've found that
:: a small amount of chocolate (one 10g 1" square brownie, 1/2 cup of
:: ice cream, two kershey kisses) satisfies me enough or bad that I
:: still want them. Even when I had no chocolate I still wanted it.

IMO, it is not bad that you still want them. Also, IMO, is great that you
have learned to limit yourself.
IMO, that is a big sign of future success.

BTW, are you female or male? Someone referred to you in a post a while back
as a female. I commented back saying I thought you were a guy. Which is
it? DV doesn't exactly tell one much. Guys and girls have different ideas
and viewpoints, sometimes very subtle differents, though, on matters
involving body image, dieting, exercise, adn weight loss. I find that
knowing someones gender provides a more complete picture when trying to
understand someones POV.

::
:::::: Honestly, I feel like I've been eating less than I should. Or
:::::: maybe just less often than I should. I delay eating until I'm
:::::: _really_ hungry, to try to make sure it's not just boredom, and
:::::: then I end up eating too much, and then I skip dinner because I
:::::: ate so much at lunch, ya know? So then I wake up starving and
:::::: have too big a breakfast, and then I skip lunch because
:::::: breakfast was so huge, then I overeat at dinner and start the
:::::: whole stupid cycle over again. No wonder it's not working. I
:::::: look at it written down now and it looks so stupid. I keep
:::::: oscillating between being afraid to eat, and being too hungry to
:::::: care if I eat too much.
:::
::: Listen -- are you eating too much or not? So what if you had a big
::: dinner if you're still eating only 1200 kcal average per day?
::: Either the problem here is in your mind or you're not reporting
::: right.
:::
::: I frequently play with available calories. If I should feel like
::: eating more now, I can compensate if I want to by eating less
::: later. And if I don't want to compensate, I just eat what I want
::: and live the results. No one is forcing me to lose weight any
::: faster than I'm ready to lose it. Luna, you simply need to realize
::: that there are going to be times when you just don't want to push
::: that hard. So, recognize that and act accordingly. Then, later on,
::: after you feel emotionally refreshed, start again. Or don't!
::
:: Sounds like good advice.
::
::::: Bad habits. But I think typical among frustrated dieters. I'd
::::: like to believe we can all eat reasonably and maintain a
::::: reasonably healthy weight. We just have to figure out what is
::::: preventing us from being that way. Be it carbs, food obsessions,
::::: emotional issues, disease, etc.
:::::
:::::: So here's what I'll
:::::: do. Sorry I got so negative before, I'm gonna blame it on the
:::::: unusually severe neck pain I've had today. Anyway, I'm going
:::::: back to eating small, frequent meals throughout the day,
:::::: bollucks to calorie counting, and I'll see what happens.
::::::
::::::
::::::: Another option is to just wait. Eat at maintenance, worrying
::::::: only about not gaining, and let your body rest at its current
::::::: weight for a month or so. Then resume dieting and see what
::::::: happens.
:::
::: To me, that sounds like the best option for someone who is
::: frustrated. Just chill the hell out!
:::
::
:: DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
:: 350/302/Apr-299/200
:: Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
:: OWL-50 carbs/day (CCLL=?)