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  #1  
Old November 23rd, 2012, 02:02 AM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Harold Groot
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Posts: 40
Default Still Time To Join Us

Tomorrow I'll be starting a lowcarb (Atkins) diet, and I've got one
person joining me - but the more that join (or even just provide
support), the better our chances.

My preparation phase is generally doing well. For example, I've
cleared away a lot of high-carb food. I've been cutting down on
caffeine (so when I go to zero caffeine tomorrow it won't be a big,
er, Jolt g). I've been exercising (walking) every other day (now up
to 40 minutes).

I've been taking all the recommended supplements for the past couple
of weeks, so I shouldn't have any nutritional deficiencies to slow me
down as I start this change in my Way Of Eating. When I was at the
bottom of the recommended daily ranges I wasn't really noticing any
side effects. (So if Atkins said from 200-600 mg/day I started with
200 mg.) I then moved into the middle of the ranges (i.e. 400 mg in
the above example) and side effects became noticeable. Dry mouth/Dry
Eyes, minor GI upsets and so on. Because there are so many supplements
it's not entirely clear which supplements are responsible (though I
have some suspicions after reading up on them). I'll give my body a
little time to adjust, and if that doesn't work I'll back on down to
the minimum levels. If that gets rid of the side effects then I'll
boost only a couple at a time to mid-range values. That will make it a
lot easier to tell which ones are responsible.

Using water to wash down all those supplements, I'm also VERY well
hydrated.

I've decided that "officially" weighing myself will be limited to once
per week. Oh, I'm not going to worry if I decide to peek at my weight
at other times - but I won't make daily weighings part of the plan.
This is part of my "Let's maximize feeling good about things" plan. If
my loss is a slow-and-steady 2 pounds per week, I would expect a daily
weighing would have only 2 "good news" days (where the scale dropped a
pound) and 5 "bad news" days (where the scale held steady). And since
one should expect fluctations, there might be some "very bad news"
days where the scale would go back up a pound. But if I weigh myself
only once per week, every weigh-in SHOULD be "good news". Similarly,
I'm going to look at "my weight loss" more than "my current weight". I
need to lose a lot of weight. So not only is "My starting weight" an
unhealthy number, so is "My starting weight - 10 pounds". That number
would tend to emphasize to me how far I still have to go. "I've taken
off 10 pounds", however, sounds encouraging. This puts the emphasis on
the progress I've made. These might be trivial things, and other
people might take a different approach, but this is what works best
for me. Other numerical indicators (blood pressure, cholesterol and so
on) would likewise be looked at from the "improvement" point of view.





  #2  
Old November 23rd, 2012, 02:14 AM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Cheri[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default Still Time To Join Us

"Harold Groot" wrote in message
...
Tomorrow I'll be starting a lowcarb (Atkins) diet, and I've got one
person joining me - but the more that join (or even just provide
support), the better our chances.


I'm ready. I pretty much have low carbed since about 1998 and do consider it
a WOE, but I have been slack with watching the amounts I eat sometimes, and
could easily lose 25-30 pounds and still not look skinny. I will look for
you tomorrow. Today I made patty melts, left bread off mine, but still a lot
of food with the hamburger, cheese, and grilled onions. Then I had some
pumpkin casserole type thing to use up the cream cheese and last of the
pumpkin. I also had pork rinds, a couple of deviled eggs, and pumpkin seeds.
Too much food. :-)

Cheri

  #3  
Old November 24th, 2012, 02:02 AM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Doug Freyburger
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Posts: 1,866
Default Still Time To Join Us

Harold Groot wrote:

I've decided that "officially" weighing myself will be limited to once
per week. Oh, I'm not going to worry if I decide to peek at my weight
at other times - but I won't make daily weighings part of the plan.
This is part of my "Let's maximize feeling good about things" plan. If
my loss is a slow-and-steady 2 pounds per week, I would expect a daily
weighing would have only 2 "good news" days (where the scale dropped a
pound) and 5 "bad news" days (where the scale held steady).


Reality check time - Two pounds per week is not slow. It's Olympic
sprinter doing 100 meters fast. If you have 100+ pounds to lose you
can expect to lose at that rate initially. Not if you have less to lose
initially.

While there are folks who can lose 2+ per week all the way down to only
having 30 to lose, they are also the ones who regain incredibly fast.
You do not want among them.

Here's how to tell what counts as fast and slow - A stall is defined as
4+ weeks in ketosis following the directions without a cheat, without a
new low and without a lost inch. Dr A wrote that the last 10 pounds
were supposed to be lost "slowly" and tha tthe last 10 pounds are
supposed to take a year. Thus 1 pound a month is slow. There hasn't
been a dieter in history who has liked this, but disliking a fact does
not make it false.

Please, please, please, do not set yourself up for self induced
frustration by adopting unrealistic expectations. Reality happens no
matter our wishes. So expect what most others have reported not what
you desire.

And since
one should expect fluctations, there might be some "very bad news"
days where the scale would go back up a pound.


You have not seen random water retension bounce. I can bounce 5 pounds
in a day. A bounce of 3 pounds is very common. This is why folks early
in the plan are told not to weigh daily. Weigh yourself the morning you
start. Weigh yourself the morning of day 15 when you have completed
Induction and it's time to move on. As there is water loss included in
Induction from dropping the stored glycogen and the water it is disolved
in you can't know what fraction of your Induction loss is water.

Here's what you can know - If you follow the directions you WILL NOT
deposit new fat. This fact is far too easily ignored in the face of the
reality of random water retension bounce.

Here's what else you can know - Fighting water retension bounce is like
fighting the tide. The tide DOES receed. But you weren't the cause of
it. The tide DOES come back. You're not the cause of it either.
Dropping glycogen does not reduce random water retension bounce. It
shifts its range down. All efforts to fight water retension bounce are
wasted. it is not the same thing as excess water retension caused by
storing carbs as glycogen or caused by inflammation.

Add the idea of bounce to the idea of stall - If the expected loss rate
is around 1 pound of fat per week and the expected water bounce is 3
pounds then it can take a month for any one new low to happen *with
doing nothing at all wrong*.

But if I weigh myself
only once per week, every weigh-in SHOULD be "good news".


No. It's just the longest anyone realistic can delay dieters from
getting on the scale.

Similarly,
I'm going to look at "my weight loss" more than "my current weight".


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. As long as you follow the
directions you aren't going to store new fat. Thus what matters is your
most recent new low not today's reading.

I
need to lose a lot of weight. So not only is "My starting weight" an
unhealthy number, so is "My starting weight - 10 pounds". That number
would tend to emphasize to me how far I still have to go. "I've taken
off 10 pounds", however, sounds encouraging. This puts the emphasis on
the progress I've made. These might be trivial things, and other
people might take a different approach, but this is what works best
for me. Other numerical indicators (blood pressure, cholesterol and so
on) would likewise be looked at from the "improvement" point of view.


Right.

Later on there will be a need for more frequest weighings. You
eventually need to learn your water retension bounce so you can tell if
you've regained during maintenance. Now's not the time. Your weight
needs to stablize first.
  #4  
Old November 24th, 2012, 07:25 AM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Harold Groot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Still Time To Join Us

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:02:49 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote:

Harold Groot wrote:

I've decided that "officially" weighing myself will be limited to once
per week. Oh, I'm not going to worry if I decide to peek at my weight
at other times - but I won't make daily weighings part of the plan.
This is part of my "Let's maximize feeling good about things" plan. If
my loss is a slow-and-steady 2 pounds per week, I would expect a daily
weighing would have only 2 "good news" days (where the scale dropped a
pound) and 5 "bad news" days (where the scale held steady).


Reality check time - Two pounds per week is not slow. It's Olympic
sprinter doing 100 meters fast. If you have 100+ pounds to lose you
can expect to lose at that rate initially. Not if you have less to lose
initially.


Sigh. It's only Day 1, and already it's appropriate to have a
discussion on what IS and what ISN'T support.

Let me offer a re-phrasing for your consideration.

"Hmmmm, for you to consider 2 pounds per week 'slow' I'd guess you
probably have more than 100 pounds to lose. Looks like this will be a
long haul - but I'm here for you."

Look at that paragraph, then look at your own. One is supportive, the
other starts out closer to sounding an airhorn in my face and yelling
"WRONG!!!" (Yes, you do EVENTUALLY get around to admitting that there
are circumstances where my figure MIGHT be correct - but that's only
AFTER the airhorn part.)


Please, please, please, do not set yourself up for self induced
frustration by adopting unrealistic expectations. Reality happens no
matter our wishes. So expect what most others have reported not what
you desire.


Boy, great "Support" here too.

Who would know better than MYSELF what happened the previous times
I'VE been on Atkins? The figure I gave is consistent with my previous
attempts. I said I was more successful in losing weight on Atkins than
on other diets, it was merely that I had previously been unsuccessful
in turning it into a permanent Way Of Eating (WOE).

How about instead: "Many people would consider 2 lbs/week an ambitious
goal to shoot for. You'll probably want to consider slowing it down a
bit as you get into Ongoing Weight Loss (where they recommend "1 to 2
lbs/week"). By adding more carbs and more variety a bit earlier than
last time, perhaps the whole experience will seem more pleasant and
the transition to it actually being a permanent WOE will finally
happen. I've got some recipies and favorite lowcarb products for you
to try a little later on."




  #5  
Old November 24th, 2012, 01:53 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 993
Default Still Time To Join Us

On Nov 24, 1:25*am, (Harold Groot) wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:02:49 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger

wrote:
Harold Groot wrote:


I've decided that "officially" weighing myself will be limited to once
per week. Oh, I'm not going to worry if I decide to peek at my weight
at other times - but I won't make daily weighings part of the plan.
This is part of my "Let's maximize feeling good about things" plan. If
my loss is a slow-and-steady 2 pounds per week, I would expect a daily
weighing would have only 2 "good news" days (where the scale dropped a
pound) and 5 "bad news" days (where the scale held steady).

Reality check time - Two pounds per week is not slow. *It's Olympic
sprinter doing 100 meters fast. *If you have 100+ pounds to lose you
can expect to lose at that rate initially. *Not if you have less to lose
initially.



There are plenty of people who lose 2 lbs a week
that don't have 100+ lbs to lose. And especially initially
because a significant amount of water is lost in the
first week or two. It's not at all unusual for someone
starting Atkins to lose 8 pounds in the first month, even if they are
say 30 lbs over weight. That averages out to
2lbs a week. It does get harder, as more weight comes
off and many people won't be able to maintain a 2lb
a week rate for more than a couple months. But it all depends on the
individual, their metabolism, excercise level, etc.






Sigh. It's only Day 1, and already it's appropriate to have a
discussion on what IS and what ISN'T support.

Let me offer a re-phrasing for your consideration.

"Hmmmm, for you to consider 2 pounds per week 'slow' I'd guess you
probably have more than 100 pounds to lose. Looks like this will be a
long haul - but I'm here for you."

Look at that paragraph, then look at your own. *One is supportive, the
other starts out closer to sounding an airhorn in my face and yelling
"WRONG!!!" *(Yes, you do EVENTUALLY get around to admitting that there
are circumstances where my figure MIGHT be correct - but that's only
AFTER the airhorn part.)

Please, please, please, do not set yourself up for self induced
frustration by adopting unrealistic expectations. *Reality happens no
matter our wishes. *So expect what most others have reported not what
you desire.


Boy, great "Support" here too.

Who would know better than MYSELF what happened the previous times
I'VE been on Atkins? *The figure I gave is consistent with my previous
attempts. I said I was more successful in losing weight on Atkins than
on other diets, it was merely that I had previously been unsuccessful
in turning it into a permanent Way Of Eating (WOE).

How about instead: "Many people would consider 2 lbs/week an ambitious
goal to shoot for. *You'll probably want to consider slowing it down a
bit as you get into Ongoing Weight Loss (where they recommend "1 to 2
lbs/week"). By adding more carbs and more variety a bit earlier than
last time, perhaps the whole experience will seem more pleasant and
the transition to it actually being a permanent WOE will finally
happen. I've got some recipies and favorite lowcarb products for you
to try a little later on."


  #6  
Old November 24th, 2012, 07:37 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Still Time To Join Us

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 06:25:42 GMT, (Harold
Groot) wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:02:49 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote:

Harold Groot wrote:

I've decided that "officially" weighing myself will be limited to once
per week. Oh, I'm not going to worry if I decide to peek at my weight
at other times - but I won't make daily weighings part of the plan.
This is part of my "Let's maximize feeling good about things" plan. If
my loss is a slow-and-steady 2 pounds per week, I would expect a daily
weighing would have only 2 "good news" days (where the scale dropped a
pound) and 5 "bad news" days (where the scale held steady).


Reality check time - Two pounds per week is not slow. It's Olympic
sprinter doing 100 meters fast. If you have 100+ pounds to lose you
can expect to lose at that rate initially. Not if you have less to lose
initially.


Sigh. It's only Day 1, and already it's appropriate to have a
discussion on what IS and what ISN'T support.

Let me offer a re-phrasing for your consideration.

[...]

With all due respect, Harold, you don't get to make the rules as to
what qualifies as support, and what doesn't.

Doug offered you some good advice, and some very good information, and
already you're biting the hand trying to help you? Why?

If you're intent on doing this your way, period, that's okay. But you
might want to ask yourself where that has gotten you in the past.

And if you want to lay it all out here for everyone to read, you
should at least expect to be constructively criticized if people think
you're going about it the wrong (or less effective) way.

If I were you, I'd worry less about how someone offers you support,
and more about the actual support.

Or, I suppose, you could go on Oprah and get all the hand-holding you
apparently want, but very little information that will actually help
you.

It's up to you, bro'.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #7  
Old November 24th, 2012, 09:07 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Cheri[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 67
Default Still Time To Join Us

"Dogman" wrote in message
...

With all due respect, Harold, you don't get to make the rules as to
what qualifies as support, and what doesn't.


Well, actually, he does get to make up the rules about what does and what
doesn't qualify as support in his mind...by only responding to posts that he
feels are supportive. I've never cared for the sledgehammer approach myself,
but I don't like the hand wringing, teeth gnashing, whiny approach either. I
mostly like to hear what works/doesn't work for people in their own
experience, a recipe, a typical days menu etc.

Cheri

  #8  
Old November 24th, 2012, 09:43 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Harold Groot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Still Time To Join Us

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:37:17 -0500, Dogman wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 06:25:42 GMT, (Harold
Groot) wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:02:49 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote:

Harold Groot wrote:

I've decided that "officially" weighing myself will be limited to once
per week. Oh, I'm not going to worry if I decide to peek at my weight
at other times - but I won't make daily weighings part of the plan.
This is part of my "Let's maximize feeling good about things" plan. If
my loss is a slow-and-steady 2 pounds per week, I would expect a daily
weighing would have only 2 "good news" days (where the scale dropped a
pound) and 5 "bad news" days (where the scale held steady).


Reality check time - Two pounds per week is not slow. It's Olympic
sprinter doing 100 meters fast. If you have 100+ pounds to lose you
can expect to lose at that rate initially. Not if you have less to lose
initially.


Sigh. It's only Day 1, and already it's appropriate to have a
discussion on what IS and what ISN'T support.

Let me offer a re-phrasing for your consideration.

[...]

With all due respect, Harold, you don't get to make the rules as to
what qualifies as support, and what doesn't.

Doug offered you some good advice, and some very good information, and
already you're biting the hand trying to help you? Why?

If you're intent on doing this your way, period, that's okay. But you
might want to ask yourself where that has gotten you in the past.

And if you want to lay it all out here for everyone to read, you
should at least expect to be constructively criticized if people think
you're going about it the wrong (or less effective) way.

If I were you, I'd worry less about how someone offers you support,
and more about the actual support.

Or, I suppose, you could go on Oprah and get all the hand-holding you
apparently want, but very little information that will actually help
you.

It's up to you, bro'.




BY HIS OWN STANDARDS I FIT INTO THE 2 POUNDS/WEEK CATEGORY. But he
came at me with messages of

YOU'RE WRONG - YOU'RE GOING TO FAIL
YOU'RE WRONG - YOU'RE GOING TO FAIL

without even ATTEMPTING to find out if I might actually be RIGHT.

I showed him some ways to get the SAME advice across in a POSITIVE and
SUPPORTIVE way. You seem to be putting in another vote for the
NEGATIVE way.

  #9  
Old November 24th, 2012, 11:06 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Still Time To Join Us

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:43:01 GMT, (Harold
Groot) wrote:

[...]
Sigh. It's only Day 1, and already it's appropriate to have a
discussion on what IS and what ISN'T support.

Let me offer a re-phrasing for your consideration.

[...]

With all due respect, Harold, you don't get to make the rules as to
what qualifies as support, and what doesn't.

Doug offered you some good advice, and some very good information, and
already you're biting the hand trying to help you? Why?

If you're intent on doing this your way, period, that's okay. But you
might want to ask yourself where that has gotten you in the past.

And if you want to lay it all out here for everyone to read, you
should at least expect to be constructively criticized if people think
you're going about it the wrong (or less effective) way.

If I were you, I'd worry less about how someone offers you support,
and more about the actual support.

Or, I suppose, you could go on Oprah and get all the hand-holding you
apparently want, but very little information that will actually help
you.

It's up to you, bro'.


BY HIS OWN STANDARDS I FIT INTO THE 2 POUNDS/WEEK CATEGORY. But he
came at me with messages of


He didn't "come at you." He simply offered advice, etc. And in a
rather nice way, I would add.

YOU'RE WRONG - YOU'RE GOING TO FAIL
YOU'RE WRONG - YOU'RE GOING TO FAIL

without even ATTEMPTING to find out if I might actually be RIGHT.

I showed him some ways to get the SAME advice across in a POSITIVE and
SUPPORTIVE way. You seem to be putting in another vote for the
NEGATIVE way.


No, I'm putting in a vote for TOLERANCE. Doug was trying to give you
advice. Period. Either take it or leave it, but biting his hand for
offering it to you seems rather childish (and ungrateful) to me.

Keep doing that and see how much "support" you get in the future.


--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #10  
Old November 24th, 2012, 11:07 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Still Time To Join Us

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:07:44 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

"Dogman" wrote in message
.. .

With all due respect, Harold, you don't get to make the rules as to
what qualifies as support, and what doesn't.


Well, actually, he does get to make up the rules about what does and what
doesn't qualify as support in his mind...


And where has that gotten him?

by only responding to posts that he
feels are supportive. I've never cared for the sledgehammer approach myself,
but I don't like the hand wringing, teeth gnashing, whiny approach either. I
mostly like to hear what works/doesn't work for people in their own
experience, a recipe, a typical days menu etc.


Cheri, you're kind of hard to please, apparently, as is Harold. And
that's okay. But it won't make it any easier for people here to
actually HELP you (or Harold), if you're always going to require that
help to be delivered to you as prescribed, and only as prescribed.
People are volunteering their help here, they aren't being paid for
doing it.

In my opinion, you should take what you can get, and just ignore the
rest. Life's just too damn short.


--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
 




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