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Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 5th, 2012, 08:22 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
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Posts: 540
Default Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/op...pagewanted=all

This is what happens when researchers use "biological plausibility"
rather than The Scientific Method.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #2  
Old June 6th, 2012, 01:39 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
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Posts: 993
Default Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...

On Jun 5, 3:22*pm, Dogman wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/op...y-think-we-kno...

This is what happens when researchers use "biological plausibility"
rather than The Scientific Method.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman



I think in certain instances Mr. Taubes might be just as guilty of
only looking at what he wants to look at and ignoring what
is right in front of him. Case in point:

"Instead, the organizations advocating salt restriction today — the
U.S.D.A., the Institute of Medicine, the C.D.C. and the N.I.H. — all
essentially rely on the results from a 30-day trial of salt, the 2001
DASH-Sodium study. It suggested that eating significantly less salt
would modestly lower blood pressure; it said nothing about whether
this would reduce hypertension, prevent heart disease or lengthen
life. "

From the DASH study:

"The DASH diet was associated with a significantly lower systolic
blood pressure at each sodium level; and the difference was greater
with high sodium levels than with low ones. As compared with the
control diet with a high sodium level, the DASH diet with a low sodium
level led to a mean systolic blood pressure that was 7.1 mm Hg lower
in participants without hypertension, and 11.5 mm Hg lower in
participants with hypertension."


Now it would seem to me that if the study shows that you can
lower blood pressure by 12 points in people with hypertension,
then you have in fact demonstrated that in can reduce
hypertension. Clearly it shows that the extent of hypertension
has been reduced in those patients as a group. And if you
have a person who is say 145 systolic and they drop just
6 points to 139, they are no longer hypertensive.

Not saying what all the evidence from all the studies really says.
Just that in this case Taubes appears to have adopted the
tactics of those he rails against. He's also wrong on the length
of the study. They were on the salt comparison diets for 8 weeks,
not 30 days.



  #3  
Old June 6th, 2012, 04:43 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
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Posts: 540
Default Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...

On Wed, 6 Jun 2012 05:39:55 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[...]
Now it would seem to me that if the study shows that you can
lower blood pressure by 12 points in people with hypertension,
then you have in fact demonstrated that in can reduce
hypertension.


Of course it can. In certain people (people with severe hypertension,
for example). But for the vast majority of us, there's no reason to
restrict salt intake. In fact, it can actually cause problems for
those who do, as recent studies have shown.

Not saying what all the evidence from all the studies really says.
Just that in this case Taubes appears to have adopted the
tactics of those he rails against.


He's essentially saying that for some of us, reducing sodium intake
might be prudent, but for the vast majority of us, it makes little
difference, and can actually cause problems - as recent studies have
shown.

That seems pretty straightforward and transparent to me.

And very unlike the "tactics he rails against."

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #4  
Old June 6th, 2012, 07:06 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Doug Freyburger
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Posts: 1,866
Default Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...

Dogman wrote:
" wrote:

Now it would seem to me that if the study shows that you can
lower blood pressure by 12 points in people with hypertension,
then you have in fact demonstrated that in can reduce
hypertension.


Of course it can. In certain people (people with severe hypertension,
for example). But for the vast majority of us, there's no reason to
restrict salt intake. In fact, it can actually cause problems for
those who do, as recent studies have shown.


Dr Atkins at one point said that the single most predictable result of
low carbing was reduced blood pressure. To me that means it happens
even more often than weight loss. It's also why I suggest to newbies
that they not worry about salt - Salt avoidance is a part of low fat
plans that is not needed on low carb plans. Newbies tend to bring it
with them not understanding where it came from in the first place.

He's essentially saying that for some of us, reducing sodium intake
might be prudent, but for the vast majority of us, it makes little
difference, and can actually cause problems - as recent studies have
shown.


Some people end up salt intolerant as they age. These people will have
benefitted from prior avoidance of excess salt. How to tell if you are
likely to become salt intolerant when you hit 60? Family history, wild
guess.

There is very little down side to avoiding excess salt. In the western
diet we get far more salt than we need. But this mostly argues against
salting your food without tasting it first and against eating fries at
fast food places. Not the same level as carefully orchestrated salt
avoidance.
  #5  
Old June 6th, 2012, 07:39 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
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Posts: 540
Default Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...

On Wed, 6 Jun 2012 18:06:07 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote:

Dogman wrote:
" wrote:

Now it would seem to me that if the study shows that you can
lower blood pressure by 12 points in people with hypertension,
then you have in fact demonstrated that in can reduce
hypertension.


Of course it can. In certain people (people with severe hypertension,
for example). But for the vast majority of us, there's no reason to
restrict salt intake. In fact, it can actually cause problems for
those who do, as recent studies have shown.


Dr Atkins at one point said that the single most predictable result of
low carbing was reduced blood pressure. To me that means it happens
even more often than weight loss. It's also why I suggest to newbies
that they not worry about salt - Salt avoidance is a part of low fat
plans that is not needed on low carb plans. Newbies tend to bring it
with them not understanding where it came from in the first place.


Exactly.

He's essentially saying that for some of us, reducing sodium intake
might be prudent, but for the vast majority of us, it makes little
difference, and can actually cause problems - as recent studies have
shown.


Some people end up salt intolerant as they age. These people will have
benefitted from prior avoidance of excess salt. How to tell if you are
likely to become salt intolerant when you hit 60? Family history, wild
guess.


I've gone in the other direction, but not by much, as I've aged (but
then I used to weigh far more than I do today). When I wrestled and
played football in college (many moons ago), I'd eat salt tablets by
the handful. I have to make sure it doesn't go too low. "Low" being
defined as 90/60 (any or both numbers). I usually have a BP of
110-115/62-65. I can't imagine how feinting, or getting dizzy when
standing up too quickly, would ever be a good thing.

There is very little down side to avoiding excess salt. In the western
diet we get far more salt than we need. But this mostly argues against
salting your food without tasting it first and against eating fries at
fast food places. Not the same level as carefully orchestrated salt
avoidance.


Avoiding processed, refined and fast foods make it pretty hard to
consume too much sodium, IMO.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #6  
Old June 7th, 2012, 04:55 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
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Posts: 993
Default Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...

On Jun 6, 11:43*am, Dogman wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jun 2012 05:39:55 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:

[...]

Now it would seem to me that if the study shows that you can
lower blood pressure by 12 points in people with hypertension,
then you have in fact demonstrated that in can reduce
hypertension.


Of course it can. In certain people (people with severe hypertension,
for example). But for the vast majority of us, there's no reason to
restrict salt intake.


Once again, that's not what Taubes said when he
referenced the specific study to try to make his
case. In his own words:

"It suggested that eating significantly less salt
would modestly lower blood pressure; it said nothing about whether
this would reduce hypertension, prevent heart disease or lengthen
life. "


The study did show a substantial reduction in blood
pressure for those restricitng salt intake. That says
to me that it does reduce hypertension.




He's essentially saying that for some of us, reducing sodium intake
might be prudent, but for the vast majority of us, it makes little
difference, and can actually cause problems - as recent studies have
shown.

That seems pretty straightforward and transparent to me.

And very unlike the "tactics he rails against."


You're trying to lead the whole thing off into
another direction. I'm not talking about Taubes
opinions or advice in general. I'm just pointing
out that his statement regarding the one study he
uses to support his case is at the least very misleading
and at worse, a lie. And for me it would lead me
to begin to question how fair and objective he
really is.

  #7  
Old June 7th, 2012, 05:16 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
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Posts: 540
Default Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...

On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 08:55:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[...]
"It suggested that eating significantly less salt
would modestly lower blood pressure; it said nothing about whether
this would reduce hypertension, prevent heart disease or lengthen
life. "


The study did show a substantial reduction in blood
pressure for those restricitng salt intake. That says
to me that it does reduce hypertension.


Semantics. I think Taubes is pointing out that the *study* itself
didn't mention it.

He's essentially saying that for some of us, reducing sodium intake
might be prudent, but for the vast majority of us, it makes little
difference, and can actually cause problems - as recent studies have
shown.

That seems pretty straightforward and transparent to me.

And very unlike the "tactics he rails against."


You're trying to lead the whole thing off into
another direction.


No, that's what YOU are trying to do.

I'm letting Taubes words, and the results of the various studies he
cites, speak for themselves.

And for me it would lead me
to begin to question how fair and objective he
really is.


Since he references both sides of the issue, that seems pretty fair
and objective to me.

YMMV.



--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #8  
Old June 7th, 2012, 11:04 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
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Posts: 993
Default Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...

On Jun 7, 12:16*pm, Dogman wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 08:55:25 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:

[...]

"It suggested that eating significantly less salt
would modestly lower blood pressure; it said nothing about whether
this would reduce hypertension, prevent heart disease or lengthen
life. "
The study did show a substantial reduction in blood
pressure for those restricitng salt intake. * That says
to me that it does reduce hypertension.


Semantics. I think Taubes is pointing out that the *study* itself
didn't mention it.


I don't see it as semantics. He leaves the reader with the
impression that the study showed no effect on hypertension.
Exactly the opposite is true.



He's essentially saying that for some of us, reducing sodium intake
might be prudent, but for the vast majority of us, it makes little
difference, and can actually cause problems - as recent studies have
shown.


That seems pretty straightforward and transparent to me.


And very unlike the "tactics he rails against."


You're trying to lead the whole thing off into
another direction.


No, that's what YOU are trying to do.

I'm letting Taubes words, and the results of the various studies he
cites, speak for themselves.


The problem is he misreported what the study said.
That;s my point.



And for me it would lead me
to begin to question how fair and objective he
really is.


Since he references both sides of the issue, that seems pretty fair
and objective to me.

..
The point is he's not fairly referencing both sides of the
issue when he points out a study and says it did not
say anything about reducing hypertension. The
study actually showed that it lowered blood pressure
12 points in those with hypertension compared to
a higher salt diet. And that is indeed misleading or
a lie.

I try to apply reasonable logic. And when someone
cites a study and misreports what it says, then I start
to question their objectivity. I don't want to have to
go look up every study to see if they're telling the truth
or not. In this case I did and it turns out, Taubes is
fibbing.
  #9  
Old June 7th, 2012, 11:06 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
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Posts: 540
Default Don't eat salt! No, go ahead and eat salt! Oh, nevermind...

On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 15:04:14 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[...]
The study did show a substantial reduction in blood
pressure for those restricitng salt intake. * That says
to me that it does reduce hypertension.


Semantics. I think Taubes is pointing out that the *study* itself
didn't mention it.


I don't see it as semantics.


That's because you're a doofus.

He's essentially saying that for some of us, reducing sodium intake
might be prudent, but for the vast majority of us, it makes little
difference, and can actually cause problems - as recent studies have
shown.


That seems pretty straightforward and transparent to me.


And very unlike the "tactics he rails against."


You're trying to lead the whole thing off into
another direction.


No, that's what YOU are trying to do.

I'm letting Taubes words, and the results of the various studies he
cites, speak for themselves.


The problem is he misreported what the study said.
That;s my point.


No, he didn't.

If anyone "misreported" anything, the study itself did.

People are free to make up their own minds about that.


--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
 




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