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Glycogen weight question and a status update



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 17th, 2004, 04:31 PM
JJ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update

I posted a few weeks ago about having had a very cruddy
week. One of the reasons for this was that at work we had
been trying to close on a new major contract and the closing
was delayed for a number of reasons. The contract was
finally completed and signed yesterday. In the overall
scheme of things this isn't necessarily a big deal, but the
livelihoods of a lot of very good and talented people were
coupled to this. (JJ sighs with relief, momentarily, then
steels himself to delivering on the contract.)

After a week of being home from vacation I have managed to
drop back to the weight I was before I left to go on
vacation....185 pounds. I expressed in an earlier post that
while I
was on vacation I did not eat any food types other than that
which I normally eat (I ate low-carb is what I specifically
said) but I did eat more that I would normally, probably
half to double my normal consumption...but that is a guess
by eye-balling quantities. I normally eat about 1400
cals/day, my guess is I was eating between 2000 and 2800
cals/day while on vacation. Certainly nothing that I would
consider a carb-up by any means but also more carbs that I
have been eating to lose. My CCLL is between 45-50g/day of
carbs so, if the carb ratio followed the calorie ratio, I
was eating between 75-100g/day of carbs. Still low-carb but
above normal for me.

By the end of the day this past Sunday I was back up about 6
pounds to 191...some of which was certainly just my Easter
dinner meal, I don't normally weigh myself at the end of the
day. On Monday I went back to induction level carbs then
ate my normal carb level for the rest of the week. This
morning I am back to my previous low of 185. Basically 6
pounds up in a week, 6 pounds down in 5 days. So far as I
can tell the only way for this to be physically possible is
for it to have been water weight gain, presumably through
glycogen storage (glycogenesis), then glycogen
depletion...much like the first two weeks of induction.

I've intentionally gone through this cycle three times now
but this is the first time I have eaten above my CCLL for an
entire week.

On one hand I suppose that I am just playing around with
what my CCLM is going to be. But, on the other hand,
several have suggested, JC in particular, that I might want
to set my goal weight to something lower than my desired
maintenance weight and then work my way back up. So, in
this regard, I am really trying to figure out what my final
goal weight needs to be so that I can end up on my desired
maintenance weight.

The three mini-experiments I've done so far seem to support
that the suggestion to shoot low is sound. Let's assume
that much of the weight gain back up will be through
glycogenesis (though I intend for some of it to be muscle
mass.) I've not found a good source yet to help answer the
following question: When I allow my body to replenish its
glycogen, and assuming my activity level remains the same,
can I predict what that total weight in pounds will be?

Yes, I realize there are many variables to consider in
answering this question. In the past three weeks I have
managed to get myself back in the gym and have managed to
get a reasonable workout (weights and/or cardio) 4
days/week. (On a side note I am dumbfounded by the progress
I already see in stamina and strength in even this short a
period.) This activity certainly has, or will have, an
impact on how my body manages its glycogen stores. As such
I don't believe that there is a crisp deterministic answer
to this question but empirical data would be useful. If
anybody has a resource(s) for such specific information I
will happily do my own research, but I haven't yet found
specifically what I am looking for.

Happy thoughts and a different topic. I have always enjoyed
dancing. I'm not good at it but I enjoy it. As you might
guess when I was at my heaviest weight, and I was there for
a very long time, I would forego dancing because I just
wasn't happy with my appearance and even the shortest dance
would leave me winded and sweating profusely. My wife and I
managed to have a date night last night just by ourselves,
the first in a very long time, and we went dancing. We
spent about 4 hours on the dance floor...I didn't get winded
once and sweated not at all. I continue to be amazed by how
good it feels to be rid of all that excess weight.

Have a great weekend all.

--
JJ.
275/185/183, BMI 26.5 - as of Apr 2, 2004, and again on
April 17th
Atkins since Sep 1, 2003
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jjsmythe/my_photos
67.3% of the man I used to be.


  #2  
Old April 17th, 2004, 04:56 PM
JC Der Koenig
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update

"JJ" wrote in message news:I5cgc.12756$ru4.15606@attbi_s52...



The three mini-experiments I've done so far seem to support
that the suggestion to shoot low is sound. Let's assume
that much of the weight gain back up will be through
glycogenesis (though I intend for some of it to be muscle
mass.) I've not found a good source yet to help answer the
following question: When I allow my body to replenish its
glycogen, and assuming my activity level remains the same,
can I predict what that total weight in pounds will be?


It depends on just how depleted and dehydrated you are, but in my experience
it will be less than ten pounds.



Yes, I realize there are many variables to consider in
answering this question. In the past three weeks I have
managed to get myself back in the gym and have managed to
get a reasonable workout (weights and/or cardio) 4
days/week. (On a side note I am dumbfounded by the progress
I already see in stamina and strength in even this short a
period.) This activity certainly has, or will have, an
impact on how my body manages its glycogen stores. As such
I don't believe that there is a crisp deterministic answer
to this question but empirical data would be useful. If
anybody has a resource(s) for such specific information I
will happily do my own research, but I haven't yet found
specifically what I am looking for.


I've never seen that exact information, but you might try asking Lyle
McDonald over at MFW.


  #3  
Old April 17th, 2004, 05:04 PM
DigitalVinyl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update

"JJ" wrote:

I posted a few weeks ago about having had a very cruddy
week. One of the reasons for this was that at work we had
been trying to close on a new major contract and the closing
was delayed for a number of reasons. The contract was
finally completed and signed yesterday. In the overall
scheme of things this isn't necessarily a big deal, but the
livelihoods of a lot of very good and talented people were
coupled to this. (JJ sighs with relief, momentarily, then
steels himself to delivering on the contract.)

After a week of being home from vacation I have managed to
drop back to the weight I was before I left to go on
vacation....185 pounds. I expressed in an earlier post that
while I
was on vacation I did not eat any food types other than that
which I normally eat (I ate low-carb is what I specifically
said) but I did eat more that I would normally, probably
half to double my normal consumption...but that is a guess
by eye-balling quantities. I normally eat about 1400
cals/day, my guess is I was eating between 2000 and 2800
cals/day while on vacation. Certainly nothing that I would
consider a carb-up by any means but also more carbs that I
have been eating to lose. My CCLL is between 45-50g/day of
carbs so, if the carb ratio followed the calorie ratio, I
was eating between 75-100g/day of carbs. Still low-carb but
above normal for me.

By the end of the day this past Sunday I was back up about 6
pounds to 191...some of which was certainly just my Easter
dinner meal, I don't normally weigh myself at the end of the
day. On Monday I went back to induction level carbs then
ate my normal carb level for the rest of the week. This
morning I am back to my previous low of 185. Basically 6
pounds up in a week, 6 pounds down in 5 days. So far as I
can tell the only way for this to be physically possible is
for it to have been water weight gain, presumably through
glycogen storage (glycogenesis), then glycogen
depletion...much like the first two weeks of induction.

I've intentionally gone through this cycle three times now
but this is the first time I have eaten above my CCLL for an
entire week.

On one hand I suppose that I am just playing around with
what my CCLM is going to be. But, on the other hand,
several have suggested, JC in particular, that I might want
to set my goal weight to something lower than my desired
maintenance weight and then work my way back up. So, in
this regard, I am really trying to figure out what my final
goal weight needs to be so that I can end up on my desired
maintenance weight.

The three mini-experiments I've done so far seem to support
that the suggestion to shoot low is sound.


If 185 is the number you want with glycogen stoers then I guess you
would have to undershoot. DId you feel different/bad/bloated at 191??
I just wonder if you will feel any different having a 179-185 weight
range rather than a 185-191 range. I would think it wouldn't make a
difference and is really more of a number-goal thing after so much
success. I do weigh myself daily and I learned that I can put on 4 lbs
just during the day from eating and drinking, so a 6 pound variance
really doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

Honestly I wondered if Atkins Phase 2 would have taken care of the
water weight difference. WHen I upped carbs for OWL I felt better and
had more stamina. Mentally I wondered if the extra carbs were building
up a higher level of glycogen stores--probably not, but it was my
first guess for feeling better.



Let's assume
that much of the weight gain back up will be through
glycogenesis (though I intend for some of it to be muscle
mass.) I've not found a good source yet to help answer the
following question: When I allow my body to replenish its
glycogen, and assuming my activity level remains the same,
can I predict what that total weight in pounds will be?


Maybe if you at at a maintenance level for two weeks straight you
would see it even out at a higher weight. Daily weighing might show
the increase and then a new steady high--enough that you could
reasonably assume that the difference between the 185 you're
maintaining and the new level represents your glycogen stores.

I can't think of any other way for a layman to figure it out for
themselves. As long as your carbs are higher but your calories remain
steady you should feel reasonably comfortable that glycogen stores are
going to be rebuilt but there won't be enough calories to start
putting on substantial fat.

Yes, I realize there are many variables to consider in
answering this question. In the past three weeks I have
managed to get myself back in the gym and have managed to
get a reasonable workout (weights and/or cardio) 4
days/week. (On a side note I am dumbfounded by the progress
I already see in stamina and strength in even this short a
period.) This activity certainly has, or will have, an
impact on how my body manages its glycogen stores. As such
I don't believe that there is a crisp deterministic answer
to this question but empirical data would be useful. If
anybody has a resource(s) for such specific information I
will happily do my own research, but I haven't yet found
specifically what I am looking for.

Happy thoughts and a different topic. I have always enjoyed
dancing. I'm not good at it but I enjoy it. As you might
guess when I was at my heaviest weight, and I was there for
a very long time, I would forego dancing because I just
wasn't happy with my appearance and even the shortest dance
would leave me winded and sweating profusely.


I know what that feels like!

My wife and I
managed to have a date night last night just by ourselves,
the first in a very long time, and we went dancing. We
spent about 4 hours on the dance floor...I didn't get winded
once and sweated not at all.


Very cool!

I continue to be amazed by how
good it feels to be rid of all that excess weight.

Have a great weekend all.


DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/302/Apr-299/200
Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
OWL-50 carbs/day (CCLL=?)
  #4  
Old April 17th, 2004, 05:09 PM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update

JJ --

This is silly....look in the mirror when you have no clothes on...If you
like what you see, and you're honest with yourself, you're done (or not).
You'll know if you see too much fat or not. The fat will be there no matter
your state of glycogen level.

As for this water weight thing -- again, carb up for a few days and look in
the mirror -- same deal. You should concern yourself with fat levels, not
how much water is trapped in your muscles/liver while carbed up. Don't
focus on what the scale says, focus on what you see, and moybe even more
importantly (depending on your goals), how you perform.

If you knew the exact amount of muscle on your body and how much glycogen
your liver can hold, then you might be able to figure this -- but honestly,
why bother? You'll never truly know how depleted your are anyway.

If you plan to enter maintenance, then you should find your CCLM and keep
carbs around that level for life.

JJ wrote:
:: I posted a few weeks ago about having had a very cruddy
:: week. One of the reasons for this was that at work we had
:: been trying to close on a new major contract and the closing
:: was delayed for a number of reasons. The contract was
:: finally completed and signed yesterday. In the overall
:: scheme of things this isn't necessarily a big deal, but the
:: livelihoods of a lot of very good and talented people were
:: coupled to this. (JJ sighs with relief, momentarily, then
:: steels himself to delivering on the contract.)
::
:: After a week of being home from vacation I have managed to
:: drop back to the weight I was before I left to go on
:: vacation....185 pounds. I expressed in an earlier post that
:: while I
:: was on vacation I did not eat any food types other than that
:: which I normally eat (I ate low-carb is what I specifically
:: said) but I did eat more that I would normally, probably
:: half to double my normal consumption...but that is a guess
:: by eye-balling quantities. I normally eat about 1400
:: cals/day, my guess is I was eating between 2000 and 2800
:: cals/day while on vacation. Certainly nothing that I would
:: consider a carb-up by any means but also more carbs that I
:: have been eating to lose. My CCLL is between 45-50g/day of
:: carbs so, if the carb ratio followed the calorie ratio, I
:: was eating between 75-100g/day of carbs. Still low-carb but
:: above normal for me.
::
:: By the end of the day this past Sunday I was back up about 6
:: pounds to 191...some of which was certainly just my Easter
:: dinner meal, I don't normally weigh myself at the end of the
:: day. On Monday I went back to induction level carbs then
:: ate my normal carb level for the rest of the week. This
:: morning I am back to my previous low of 185. Basically 6
:: pounds up in a week, 6 pounds down in 5 days. So far as I
:: can tell the only way for this to be physically possible is
:: for it to have been water weight gain, presumably through
:: glycogen storage (glycogenesis), then glycogen
:: depletion...much like the first two weeks of induction.
::
:: I've intentionally gone through this cycle three times now
:: but this is the first time I have eaten above my CCLL for an
:: entire week.
::
:: On one hand I suppose that I am just playing around with
:: what my CCLM is going to be. But, on the other hand,
:: several have suggested, JC in particular, that I might want
:: to set my goal weight to something lower than my desired
:: maintenance weight and then work my way back up. So, in
:: this regard, I am really trying to figure out what my final
:: goal weight needs to be so that I can end up on my desired
:: maintenance weight.
::
:: The three mini-experiments I've done so far seem to support
:: that the suggestion to shoot low is sound. Let's assume
:: that much of the weight gain back up will be through
:: glycogenesis (though I intend for some of it to be muscle
:: mass.) I've not found a good source yet to help answer the
:: following question: When I allow my body to replenish its
:: glycogen, and assuming my activity level remains the same,
:: can I predict what that total weight in pounds will be?
::
:: Yes, I realize there are many variables to consider in
:: answering this question. In the past three weeks I have
:: managed to get myself back in the gym and have managed to
:: get a reasonable workout (weights and/or cardio) 4
:: days/week. (On a side note I am dumbfounded by the progress
:: I already see in stamina and strength in even this short a
:: period.) This activity certainly has, or will have, an
:: impact on how my body manages its glycogen stores. As such
:: I don't believe that there is a crisp deterministic answer
:: to this question but empirical data would be useful. If
:: anybody has a resource(s) for such specific information I
:: will happily do my own research, but I haven't yet found
:: specifically what I am looking for.
::
:: Happy thoughts and a different topic. I have always enjoyed
:: dancing. I'm not good at it but I enjoy it. As you might
:: guess when I was at my heaviest weight, and I was there for
:: a very long time, I would forego dancing because I just
:: wasn't happy with my appearance and even the shortest dance
:: would leave me winded and sweating profusely. My wife and I
:: managed to have a date night last night just by ourselves,
:: the first in a very long time, and we went dancing. We
:: spent about 4 hours on the dance floor...I didn't get winded
:: once and sweated not at all. I continue to be amazed by how
:: good it feels to be rid of all that excess weight.
::
:: Have a great weekend all.
::
:: --
:: JJ.
:: 275/185/183, BMI 26.5 - as of Apr 2, 2004, and again on
:: April 17th
:: Atkins since Sep 1, 2003
:: http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jjsmythe/my_photos
:: 67.3% of the man I used to be.


  #5  
Old April 17th, 2004, 05:13 PM
JC Der Koenig
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update

"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
...

Honestly I wondered if Atkins Phase 2 would have taken care of the
water weight difference. WHen I upped carbs for OWL I felt better and
had more stamina. Mentally I wondered if the extra carbs were building
up a higher level of glycogen stores--probably not, but it was my
first guess for feeling better.




But basically you have no idea what you are rambling on about, because
you've never experienced anything like it.

--
There's a difference between an opinion and an informed point of view. For
some reason people always get them confused and think that whatever pops
into their head is worth sharing as part of a debate.


  #6  
Old April 17th, 2004, 05:29 PM
curious
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update

JJ,

As I get closer to my goal weight (within 7 lbs now), I have the EXACT
same question. I put on and took off 10 lbs in 1 week. That had to be
water stored as I know that while I ate sugar, I didn't eat an extra
35,0000 calories to put on that weight. Neither did I undereat this week
35,000 calories to take off the 10 lbs. In fact, I just went back to
eating the way I ate 2 weeks ago.

Since I don't know what I'm doing either, I've wondered if going on
maintenance enables a person's glycogen stores to build up slowly so you
don't notice it, because in spite of the fact that you are building up
glycogen stores, you may continue to lose weight...just at a slower rate,
stay .5 lb week instead of 1 or whatever...When I "hit it" with a sudden
influx of carbs, I build them up suddenly and add back quickly, not giving
the body time to adjust while continuing to lose.

When I put on that 10 lbs, noone else seemed to notice. I was still
getting those compliments, people wondering how I did it...only I could
tell, apparently, as my family didn't seem to notice, either, in fact,
they snickered at me when I told them I could feel the difference. So, my
response to Roger's question, my goal is a certain number, and not "how I
look" because we can all talk ourselves into "I'm not that bad", but
numbers don't lie...and it is more of a reality check...at least that is
my take on it.

I am going to get to goal first, and then work on going up to maintenance
more diligently, and try to go at least a little below goal...I can see
that I'm going to have to in order to stay down there...but I'd be curious
to know how people have done it without gaining weight back.

I'm especially interested in hearing from people who have used low carb as
a strategy for losing weight and not necessarily who plan to use it as a
way of life for the rest of your life. Some of you may have changed over
to a simple calorie counting or more balanced approach (meaning not
necessarily LC) to eating...what strategy did you use to "go off" the
diet...

Becky P.
www.family.solidrockpl.org
199/142/135

  #7  
Old April 17th, 2004, 05:40 PM
JC Der Koenig
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update


"curious" curious@noemailshown wrote in message
lkaboutsupport.com...

I'm especially interested in hearing from people who have used low carb as
a strategy for losing weight and not necessarily who plan to use it as a
way of life for the rest of your life.


That's me.


Some of you may have changed over
to a simple calorie counting or more balanced approach (meaning not
necessarily LC) to eating...what strategy did you use to "go off" the
diet...


I get down to 7 or 8 pounds below my goal and then slowly introduce carbs
into my diet, allowing my weight to creep up to goal. At that point I can
maintain my weight faily easily. There's a couple of pound variance in
either direction, but if you keep track it's not that difficult to take
corrective action.


  #8  
Old April 17th, 2004, 06:30 PM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update

curious wrote:
:: JJ,
::
:: As I get closer to my goal weight (within 7 lbs now), I have the
:: EXACT same question. I put on and took off 10 lbs in 1 week. That
:: had to be water stored as I know that while I ate sugar, I didn't
:: eat an extra 35,0000 calories to put on that weight. Neither did I
:: undereat this week 35,000 calories to take off the 10 lbs. In fact,
:: I just went back to eating the way I ate 2 weeks ago.
::
:: Since I don't know what I'm doing either, I've wondered if going on
:: maintenance enables a person's glycogen stores to build up slowly so
:: you don't notice it,

It very well may if you do it as Atkins suggests, slowly increasing carb
intake as you creep to goal...

:: because in spite of the fact that you are
:: building up glycogen stores, you may continue to lose weight
....just
:: at a slower rate, stay .5 lb week instead of 1 or whatever...When I
:: "hit it" with a sudden influx of carbs, I build them up suddenly and
:: add back quickly, not giving the body time to adjust while
:: continuing to lose.
::
:: When I put on that 10 lbs, noone else seemed to notice. I was still
:: getting those compliments, people wondering how I did it...only I
:: could tell, apparently, as my family didn't seem to notice, either,
:: in fact, they snickered at me when I told them I could feel the
:: difference. So, my response to Roger's question, my goal is a
:: certain number, and not "how I look" because we can all talk
:: ourselves into "I'm not that bad", but numbers don't lie...and it is
:: more of a reality check...at least that is my take on it.

Numbers do lie! I've seen plenty of normal weight people who have much too
much bodyfat, and little muscle. It is not hard for an objective person to
look at one's body and decide if there's too much fat or not. Do you think
a 290 lb contest-ready bodybuilder is too fat? And I'd bet you money if one
of those guys/gals showed up to stage with a spare tire around the waist
there would be some serious laughing going on.

If your goal is simply to weigh a certain number, you haven't thought about
this enough. Bodyweight number goals are nice to have on any weight loss
program, but for those with a lot to use, number goals really aren't that
useful. A bodyfat test would be much more useful and could be used to make
a number goal have some kind of meaning. But an honest & objective person
who is keenly interested in being lean can make a good determination by
simply looking in the mirror, and pinching fat.

::
:: I am going to get to goal first, and then work on going up to
:: maintenance more diligently, and try to go at least a little below
:: goal...I can see that I'm going to have to in order to stay down
:: there...but I'd be curious to know how people have done it without
:: gaining weight back.
::
:: I'm especially interested in hearing from people who have used low
:: carb as a strategy for losing weight and not necessarily who plan to
:: use it as a way of life for the rest of your life. Some of you may
:: have changed over to a simple calorie counting or more balanced
:: approach (meaning not necessarily LC) to eating...what strategy did
:: you use to "go off" the diet...

Oh....I see....you're the one who never really belived in LC in the first
place....it was always to be a temporary thing for you. Okay. Carry on.



  #9  
Old April 17th, 2004, 09:03 PM
curious
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update

Roger said:
Numbers do lie! I've seen plenty of normal weight people who have much
too
much bodyfat, and little muscle. It is not hard for an objective person
to
look at one's body and decide if there's too much fat or not. Do you
think
a 290 lb contest-ready bodybuilder is too fat? And I'd

Becky replies:
I'm not really into looking at bodybuilders...and I'm not planning on
starting into it myself. I meant, for me...sorry about that, but I've
seen so many "overweight people" say, "Well, I'm not that bad..." even as
the weight piles on and as they say to themselves..."well I can still wear
my size...so I must be okay, even if the scales say I'm too heavy," as
they barely squeeze into their pants...

Roger said:
If your goal is simply to weigh a certain number, you haven't thought
about
this enough. Bodyweight number goals are nice to have on

Becky replies:
Actually I've never been this way before, but I can see I will need to be
this way from henceforth...because I can't go by "size" of clothes...it is
way too big of a variable..
and clothes sizes lie, as we've discussed in here before..
It is a better check for me than "sizes" of clothes and as I mentioned, a
body fat test isn't a practical option for me.

Roger said:
A bodyfat test would be much more useful and could be used to
make
a number goal have some kind of meaning. But an honest & objective person

Becky replies:
I haven't the foggiest idea where to get a body fat test done here in
Poland, so that is "pie in the sky" to me...a far fetched idea. I can do a
"pinch an inch" test, but that's about it. I've heard that women have more
fat than men because that is the way God made them...with an extra layer
to help protect esp. as related to child bearing.

As far as low carb for life. Unfortunately for some of you that might
care, while I can see that it does work for weight loss, I remain
unconvinced that bread is bad for people who don't have a health problem.
On the other hand, I am becoming convinced that sugar is the really bad
culprit. I've also come to the place where if I need to, I think I could
continue in a lower carb, but I am unwilling to give up corn, and other
high carb veggies like peas and carrots--not unless my health depended on
it--like my parents who now have diverticulitis.

Roger...it seems from your past posts that you believe this is the "only"
way to go, but I know it isn't. My dad lost 30-40 lbs on a low fat diet
and has kept it off for years...that strategy worked for him. It was too
difficult for me to be hungry all the time while feeding 5 kids and a
husband. LC has been wonderful for me.

Becky P. - curious
www.family.solidrockpl.org
199/142/135 5'5.5"






  #10  
Old April 17th, 2004, 09:14 PM
curious
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glycogen weight question and a status update

Roger...

You're right...
Body builders must fall into a different category. I've seen people who
lift weights and they don't look overweight, but they are by the charts,
overweight.

But, most people "out there" or even "in here" aren't body builders, from
what I've seen.

Becky P.

 




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